Ceramic bearings

[sixpack577]

My friend who owns "my" '18 gsxr1k, lol(for those that don't know, he drives a truck, and his bike has lived with me since new, I do all the work and maintenance, and get a free bike to ride out of the deal).
Anyway, he bought a set of WorldWide ceramic wheel bearings last week from Chris Moore, $375 total.
He got another new Q3+rear tire, and is picking up another new front(the one on it is good, under a thousand miles, and will go on my '03 gsxr1k).
He also ordered ceramic transmission bearings from Chris Moore as well, $355, and they should be in by next week.
So, I get to put those in.
It'll take me several weeks to get to it, as I have a motorcycle and 4wheeler(not mine) that I am currently working on.
But, I'm looking forward to it!
I'm excited to pull the transmission.
It'll be cool to see if it comes out as easy as claimed, as you do Not have to split the case or remove the engine.
At about 10k miles now, I'm really interested to see if there is any major wear on the transmission(this bike has a factory Quickshifter).
As for the wheel bearings, I wish there was a way to do a stock vs ceramic test.
But, at almost 10k miles on stock, vs new ceramic, is not really a fair comparison.
We live too far from Moore's dyno to do same day testing too.
With calipers off(there is some normal pad drag), spin the wheel by hand, and with stock bearings, the wheel spins several rotations.
With ceramic, spin it, go to lunch, come back and they're still spinning, lol.
This will lead you to belive that they really do work, and the bikes do feel as if they push easier.
So if anyone has any before or after test ideas, let me know.
Stay tuned
(I'll be back with a review on the MoTool Slacker sag tool soon too).

 

[mark3evo]

in my opinion, they will be not enough drag to show any change with regard to the wheels

if it would then Chris Moore would have done a dyno comparison

maybe a placebo effect

i had them too thrown in for free with my Rotobox carbon wheels , after 10,000 miles they were worn out, so i'm back to stock

 

[mark3evo]

i reckon if you got stock Bearings then degreased them , they too would spin forever

 

[sixpack577]

in my opinion, they will be not enough drag to show any change

if it would then Chris Moore would have done a dyno comparison

maybe a placebo effect

i had them too thrown in for free with my Rotobox carbon wheels , after 10,000 miles they were worn out, so i'm back to stock

Chris says he gets 2-3hp from the wheel bearings, and 2-3 from the transmission.
Does it? Is it just a variance in the dyno at the moment? I cannot say.
I do say they spin and push easier, lol, but noticeable performance, meh, I think they are little things that add up.
Personally, I don't think they offer $800 worth of performance, but it's not my money either, lol.
They were just on my friend's to-do part list, which still has more to go.
He was going to do cams first(he as in me), but Chris cut him a better deal than anywhere else on bearings, so he got them instead for now.
I'm ok with that too, lol, with as many bike projects that I currently have going(4), I really didn't want to pull the engine for cams(no room in frame for degree wheel).

 

[sixpack577]

i reckon if you got stock Bearings then degreased them , they too would spin forever

Very possibly

 

[Berlin Germany]

(...)
He also ordered ceramic transmission bearings from Chris Moore as well, $355, and they should be in by next week.
So, I get to put those in.
It'll take me several weeks to get to it, as I have a motorcycle and 4wheeler(not mine) that I am currently working on.
But, I'm looking forward to it!
I'm excited to pull the transmission.
(...)

does the L8 really have a cassette gear (block) that you can pull out in one piece?
then the job could be done in 4-5 hours i suppose.

but if not, expect way over 12 hours
and for what all that much money? the bearings,
2 roller bearings and 4 needle bearings
allone make around 400

for what ? 1-2 whps more if ever ?

that stupid i pers. never would be - 2 teeth more at the rear sprocket (40 bucks or so) will occur lot more acceleration.

 

[sixpack577]

does the L8 really have a cassette gear (block) that you can pull out in one piece?
then the job could be done in 4-5 hours i suppose.

but if not, expect way over 12 hours
and for what all that much money? the bearings,
2 roller bearings and 4 needle bearings
allone make around 400

for what ? 1-2 whps more if ever ?

that stupid i pers. never would be - 2 teeth more at the rear sprocket (40 bucks or so) will occur lot more acceleration.

I agree, but it's not my money, lol.
And yes, the transmission pulls out from under the side cover.
I have the service manual, but havn't looked at that job in detail yet.
I have not worked on this style of transmission before, so I am looking forward to learning something new.
At a glance, it seems to be a better design...but that remains to be seen, lol

 

[georgiabusa_05]

Looking forward to hearing what you think.

 

[jellyrug]

Chris says he gets 2-3hp from the wheel bearings, and 2-3 from the transmission.
Does it? Is it just a variance in the dyno at the moment? I cannot say.
I do say they spin and push easier, lol, but noticeable performance, meh, I think they are little things that add up.
Personally, I don't think they offer $800 worth of performance, but it's not my money either, lol.
They were just on my friend's to-do part list, which still has more to go.
He was going to do cams first(he as in me), but Chris cut him a better deal than anywhere else on bearings, so he got them instead for now.
I'm ok with that too, lol, with as many bike projects that I currently have going(4), I really didn't want to pull the engine for cams(no room in frame for degree wheel).

This topic has been discussed many times before.
So if the wheel bearings save you 3hp, that is 2237W of heat lost in friction with the old bearings.

Specific heat capacity of aluminum = 900J/kg K

Weight of two wheels approximately 13kg

Q = M x cP x temperature change

It follows 2237 = 13 x 900 x temperature change per second

Temp change will be 11 degrees C per minute. That means in a closed system, over 10 minutes your aluminum wheels will heat up by around 110 degrees Celsius, which is above the boiling point of water.

That is a rough calculation taking just the critical variables into account, but you would probably need a second radiator on the bike to cool down your wheels.

In real world practice, what would happen is the grease in those bearings will boil in no time, the seals will fail and the bearings will fail in less than one hour.

In short, if that is what Chris Moore says, it shows the difference between a qualified Automotive Engineer say working in the design department at Suzuki and someone who just wings it and impresses all with record drag strip times.

One of the reasons I would never let one of these guys touch my bike.

Sorry for being an ass, but I can't help myself when I see this kind of BS.

 

[Bumblebee]

This topic has been discussed many times before.
So if the wheel bearings save you 3hp, that is 2237W of heat lost in friction with the old bearings.

Specific heat capacity of aluminum = 900J/kg K

Weight of two wheels approximately 13kg

Q = M x cP x temperature change

It follows 2237 = 13 x 900 x temperature change per second

Temp change will be 11 degrees C per minute. That means in a closed system, over 10 minutes your aluminum wheels will heat up by around 110 degrees Celsius, which is above the boiling point of water.

That is a rough calculation taking just the critical variables into account, but you would probably need a second radiator on the bike to cool down your wheels.

In real world practice, what would happen is the grease in those bearings will boil in no time, the seals will fail and the bearings will fail in less than one hour.

In short, if that is what Chris Moore says, it shows the difference between a qualified Automotive Engineer say working in the design department at Suzuki and someone who just wings it and impresses all with record drag strip times.

One of the reasons I would never let one of these guys touch my bike.

Sorry for being an ass, but I can't help myself when I see this kind of BS.

Honestly I know little about ceramic bearings but I took a few seconds to Google them...

There's no need to post my findings as anyone can go Google what I did just as easily.

It was an interesting read though.

 

[sixpack577]

This topic has been discussed many times before.
So if the wheel bearings save you 3hp, that is 2237W of heat lost in friction with the old bearings.

Specific heat capacity of aluminum = 900J/kg K

Weight of two wheels approximately 13kg

Q = M x cP x temperature change

It follows 2237 = 13 x 900 x temperature change per second

Temp change will be 11 degrees C per minute. That means in a closed system, over 10 minutes your aluminum wheels will heat up by around 110 degrees Celsius, which is above the boiling point of water.

That is a rough calculation taking just the critical variables into account, but you would probably need a second radiator on the bike to cool down your wheels.

I short, if that is what Chris Moore says, it shows the difference between a qualified Automotive Engineer say working in the design department at Suzuki and someone who just wings it and impresses all with record drag strip times.

Sorry for being an ass, but I can't help myself when I see this kind of BS.

Look, he wanted them, his money, his bike, his decision, I'm just the wrench.
I've heard both sides of the argument for years.
My Dad is a retired mechanical engineer, his brother, a retired physicist who designed lazers for the government, their dad/my grandfather a physicist, Lester C. Morton, look him up, Bridgeport Brass, the co-inventor of the aerosol can.
Me, I'm just blue-collar joe working in QC in a machine shop.
So why I am talking about these 3 men?
To let you know that I have life experience with genius men, far more book smart than myself.
What did that teach me first hand?
That the laboratory and the real world Are 2 different things. Not Everything is accurate and repeatable, hence why there is lab And real world testing.
I followed your statement, I agree with the math...but you're not Chris Moore either.
You havn't done thousands of passes in the 1/4 mile...nor do you dyno tune, or hold world records.
There is a tremendous amount of attention that goes into shaving hundredths of a second.
If Chris Moore says that all his testing proved ceramic bearings gave him that extra minimal amount to get there...
then he has the clout to say so.
The man is Excellent at dyno tuning, will gladly share any info in conversation, and isn't in the snake-oil business.
I already stated that this is not $800 worth of performance on a street bike, and does little to anything noticeable.
For as long as ceramic bearings have been used in motorcycling, the market for them would have long collapsed had there not been a small niche use for them.
I am skeptical of things, and look for facts over opinions.
I don't jump on hype bandwagons.
But I do Really Respect and love the guys who do what is said that cannot be done.
Would I personally buy ceramic wheel bearings? Sure, I'de try them if I bought carbon fiber wheels, as they're an option.
Would I put them in stock wheels?
Nope, I just spend about $75 for oem front and rear wheel bearings and dust seals for my '03 gsxr1k, and kept $700+ in my pocket.
Read it again, the '18 gsxr1k is Not mine, and it is Not my money or decision.
I told him to do cams next.
To each their own.

 

[TonyM995]

This topic has been discussed many times before.
So if the wheel bearings save you 3hp, that is 2237W of heat lost in friction with the old bearings.

Specific heat capacity of aluminum = 900J/kg K

Weight of two wheels approximately 13kg

Q = M x cP x temperature change

It follows 2237 = 13 x 900 x temperature change per second

Temp change will be 11 degrees C per minute. That means in a closed system, over 10 minutes your aluminum wheels will heat up by around 110 degrees Celsius, which is above the boiling point of water.

That is a rough calculation taking just the critical variables into account, but you would probably need a second radiator on the bike to cool down your wheels.

In real world practice, what would happen is the grease in those bearings will boil in no time, the seals will fail and the bearings will fail in less than one hour.

In short, if that is what Chris Moore says, it shows the difference between a qualified Automotive Engineer say working in the design department at Suzuki and someone who just wings it and impresses all with record drag strip times.

One of the reasons I would never let one of these guys touch my bike.

Sorry for being an ass, but I can't help myself when I see this kind of BS.

Kudos to you for knowing the math! I’m learning the math in regards to standalone tuning from EFI University and it’s becoming very easy to tell who is educated on this stuff and who isn’t.

I can’t believe people call Chris Moore a tuner. He admits in this video just past the 7 minute mark that he doesn’t tune any standalone and BJ does. He just does the riding.

He basically has a template on what changes he makes in Woolich for every single ecu. It’s super simple and BJ probably showed him how to do the first one and now he just pumps them out. He’s a jockey not a tuner. Maybe call him a YouTooner.

HTP built the engine on his Gen 3 and BJ tuned the Motec. As Jelly pointed out, he’s not a skilled Automotive Engineer.
Nothing wrong with that but it’s amazing people don’t seem to understand what it is in regards to his skill set.

 

[jellyrug]

Look, he wanted them, his money, his bike, his decision, I'm just the wrench.
I've heard both sides of the argument for years.
My Dad is a retired mechanical engineer, his brother, a retired physicist who designed lazers for the government, their dad/my grandfather a physicist, Lester C. Morton, look him up, Bridgeport Brass, the co-inventor of the aerosol can.
Me, I'm just blue-collar joe working in QC in a machine shop.
So why I am talking about these 3 men?
To let you know that I have life experience with genius men, far more book smart than myself.
What did that teach me first hand?
That the laboratory and the real world Are 2 different things. Not Everything is accurate and repeatable, hence why there is lab And real world testing.
I followed your statement, I agree with the math...but you're not Chris Moore either.
You havn't done thousands of passes in the 1/4 mile...nor do you dyno tune, or hold world records.
There is a tremendous amount of attention that goes into shaving hundredths of a second.
If Chris Moore says that all his testing proved ceramic bearings gave him that extra minimal amount to get there...
then he has the clout to say so.
The man is Excellent at dyno tuning, will gladly share any info in conversation, and isn't in the snake-oil business.
I already stated that this is not $800 worth of performance on a street bike, and does little to anything noticeable.
For as long as ceramic bearings have been used in motorcycling, the market for them would have long collapsed had there not been a small niche use for them.
I am skeptical of things, and look for facts over opinions.
I don't jump on hype bandwagons.
But I do Really Respect and love the guys who do what is said that cannot be done.
Would I personally buy ceramic wheel bearings? Sure, I'de try them if I bought carbon fiber wheels, as they're an option.
Would I put them in stock wheels?
Nope, I just spend about $75 for oem front and rear wheel bearings and dust seals for my '03 gsxr1k, and kept $700+ in my pocket.
Read it again, the '18 gsxr1k is Not mine, and it is Not my money or decision.
I told him to do cams next.
To each their own.

I respect Chris for his achievements, some things he does and says are taken with a grain of salt though. He has a nice opportunity with parents owning a Suzuki dealership.

You are correct, I have never ridden a drag strip. I might lick him on the amount of dyno tests and tunes. Those were on four wheels though and some of them were not for a few minutes, rather continuous days, non stop, some before the motor ever went into mass production.

BTW, if theory does not prove correct in the lab and later when upscaled into production, then whoever did the theory either did not understand physics fundamentals or the person screwed up.

Some things have so many variables, they are impossible to calculate and we rely on experiments and testing.

Anyone with a physics, thermo dynamics theoretical background backed by practical experience will immediately know this though. If you loose 3hp of friction in a few small wheel bearings, they will self destruct in no time.

 

[sixpack577]

He did have a good opportunity with his folks owning the dealership.
But, Moore Mafia, although on ajoining property, is a seperate business, that he built off of his tuning and drag racing skill.
Physics is also a very interesting subject, and not something that I am well versed in, but I can follow when explained.
Many things in physics we accept as hard facts, but there are variables and inconsistancies.
I also know of very few ceramic bearing failures by overall percentage of them out there.
I would like to find more stats on it, as well pros and cons from their manufacturer's.
If they had no positive features, they would not be made.
I belive it to be a Very small, not noticeable, but measurable gain.

 

[sixpack577]

Kudos to you for knowing the math! I’m learning the math in regards to standalone tuning from EFI University and it’s becoming very easy to tell who is educated on this stuff and who isn’t.

I can’t believe people call Chris Moore a tuner. He admits in this video just past the 7 minute mark that he doesn’t tune any standalone and BJ does. He just does the riding.

He basically has a template on what changes he makes in Woolich for every single ecu. It’s super simple and BJ probably showed him how to do the first one and now he just pumps them out. He’s a jockey not a tuner. Maybe call him a YouTooner.

HTP built the engine on his Gen 3 and BJ tuned the Motec. As Jelly pointed out, he’s not a skilled Automotive Engineer.
Nothing wrong with that but it’s amazing people don’t seem to understand what it is in regards to his skill set.

Ok
I have been riding a bike for a year or more now that CM dyno tuned, himself, my friend watched him do All of it.
Of all the dyno'd bikes I have ridden before and after, there is nothing like it, he did an incredible job.
And
I would say that it's really funny then that the "Youtooner" has KICKED EVERYONE'S ASS AND HOLDS WORLD RECORDS.
Carry on super smart people.

 

[Bumblebee]

He did have a good opportunity with his folks owning the dealership.
But, Moore Mafia, although on ajoining property, is a seperate business, that he built off of his tuning and drag racing skill.
Physics is also a very interesting subject, and not something that I am well versed in, but I can follow when explained.
Many things in physics we accept as hard facts, but there are variables and inconsistancies.
I also know of very few ceramic bearing failures by overall percentage of them out there.
I would like to find more stats on it, as well pros and cons from their manufacturer's.
If they had no positive features, they would not be made.
I belive it to be a Very small, not noticeable, but measurable gain.

All MotoGP, AMA superbike, world superbike, NHRA drag racers use ceramic bearings.

There has to be some merit to using them.

 

[TonyM995]

Ok
I have been riding a bike for a year or more now that CM dyno tuned, himself, my friend watched him do All of it.
Of all the dyno'd bikes I have ridden before and after, there is nothing like it, he did an incredible job.
And
I would say that it's really funny then that the "Youtooner" has KICKED EVERYONE'S ASS AND HOLDS WORLD RECORDS.
Carry on super smart people.

I personally like the guy or who he seems to be online. He's really good at tuning a bike with Woolich and he can ride 1/4 mile better than anyone in the world but he's not a professional tuner. If anyone needs help with a standalone ecu, as he stated in the video I posted, he can't tune them. There is nothing wrong with that but using Woolich auto tune is a copy/paste operation. It's as easy as it gets.

As for ceramic bearings, I'd personally test doing back to back runs at a drag strip if I cared to. I believe Brock said they are worth one mph trap speed or so. I'd just pop them in and call it good.

 

[sixpack577]

I personally like the guy or who he seems to be online. He's really good at tuning a bike with Woolich and he can ride 1/4 mile better than anyone in the world but he's not a professional tuner. If anyone needs help with a standalone ecu, as he stated in the video I posted, he can't tune them. There is nothing wrong with that but using Woolich auto tune is a copy/paste operation. It's as easy as it gets.

As for ceramic bearings, I'd personally test doing back to back runs at a drag strip if I cared to. I believe Brock said they are worth one mph trap speed or so. I'd just pop them in and call it good.

I understand how Woolrich works.
You Have to build to the map before you can copy and paste it.
No tuner tunes every bike from scratch either. If it's another bolt-on version of the same, a previous similiar map is loaded, then adjusted accordingly.
If CM was just a "Youtooner", with no real ability...then why did Woolrich use Him as their North American test guy?
BigMike, an awesome tuner? Yep.
Why not have someone like that on your team, he is given credit for his abilities.
So CM doesn't tune Maxx ecu's, so what, not everyone does...or needs, or cares too.
That's not what his business caters to.
The humble, friendly guy that's always willing to help is by all accounts the same in real life.
I have never met him.
I have a good friend who knows him, and everyone has the same good things to say about him.
I'm not some fan boy out to defend my hero either, and they need no one to stick up for them, as their work speaks for itself.
I do find the comments as disrespectful to someone who has done so much for the sportbike, Suzuki, and gen3 community. It doesn't offend me, almost nothing does...but it's not a good look for anyone saying those things.
I wish you well in your Fuel-Tech project.
After you have spent some hours in it, then you'll realize why not ever business wants to spend that amount of time on one motorcycle.
MM will also be happy to point you in the direction of services that they do not offer.
And, at the end of the day, all the Max Ecu, Fuel-Tech custom jobs...still got smoked by the "Youtooner"
And Brock does claim one mph with ceramic bearings, I'de say he's done enough to make that claim too.
I'm no drag racer, I could honestly care less. I drag knees and ride wheelies, and CM turned this weak 1k into a monster.
Enough said.

 

[jellyrug]

He did have a good opportunity with his folks owning the dealership.
But, Moore Mafia, although on ajoining property, is a seperate business, that he built off of his tuning and drag racing skill.
Physics is also a very interesting subject, and not something that I am well versed in, but I can follow when explained.
Many things in physics we accept as hard facts, but there are variables and inconsistancies.
I also know of very few ceramic bearing failures by overall percentage of them out there.
I would like to find more stats on it, as well pros and cons from their manufacturer's.
If they had no positive features, they would not be made.
I belive it to be a Very small, not noticeable, but measurable gain.

The only advantage of a ceramic bearing is that it has up to 10 times (depending on manufacturer and spec) the lifetime compared to a conventional bearing.

Ceramic is a trade name, there are no actual real ceramics in the bearing. The inner and outer races are either made from Martensitic grade 4 stainless steel or steel which is harder than conventional bearings.

The balls can be either Silicon Nitride (Si3N4), Zirconia Oxide (ZrO2), Silicon Carbide (SiC), or Alumina Oxide (Al203). While the latter is the most widely used, for a turbo, you want Silicon Nitride and for a wheel bearing, I would probably select Silicon Carbide if it is a competitive racing bicycle, ( the ones you pedal )

For a Busa, I would probably use Silicon Nitride, but personally I would not do that until the OEM bearings are kaput and it just means that will probably be the last time I ever replace wheel bearings.

The marketing on those bearing boxes are designed to catch all those folks who know nothing about ceramic bearings.

 

[TonyM995]

I understand how Woolrich works.
You Have to build to the map before you can copy and paste it.
No tuner tunes every bike from scratch either. If it's another bolt-on version of the same, a previous similiar map is loaded, then adjusted accordingly.
If CM was just a "Youtooner", with no real ability...then why did Woolrich use Him as their North American test guy?
BigMike, an awesome tuner? Yep.
Why not have someone like that on your team, he is given credit for his abilities.
So CM doesn't tune Maxx ecu's, so what, not everyone does...or needs, or cares too.
That's not what his business caters to.
The humble, friendly guy that's always willing to help is by all accounts the same in real life.
I have never met him.
I have a good friend who knows him, and everyone has the same good things to say about him.
I'm not some fan boy out to defend my hero either, and they need no one to stick up for them, as their work speaks for itself.
I do find the comments as disrespectful to someone who has done so much for the sportbike, Suzuki, and gen3 community. It doesn't offend me, almost nothing does...but it's not a good look for anyone saying those things.
I wish you well in your Fuel-Tech project.
After you have spent some hours in it, then you'll realize why not ever business wants to spend that amount of time on one motorcycle.
MM will also be happy to point you in the direction of services that they do not offer.
And, at the end of the day, all the Max Ecu, Fuel-Tech custom jobs...still got smoked by the "Youtooner"
And Brock does claim one mph with ceramic bearings, I'de say he's done enough to make that claim too.
I'm no drag racer, I could honestly care less. I drag knees and ride wheelies, and CM turned this weak 1k into a monster.
Enough said.

Woolich used him because he sells more bin files than any other rep in the country or even world. If I didn’t like Moore I would say so. I do like him but don’t look at him as a Pro Tuner. His tuner is BJ.

The YouTooner comment was a joke that I stole from the channel “Real Good at Doin’ Stuff”. It’s a ‘shop talk’ joke that I bet he would laugh at if someone said it to him in person, especially if they said it like Pete in the below video.

I’m no better than anyone and that also means I’m no worse. I believe anyone on this forum could learn to tune if they have the right teacher.

Video I took the joke from.