Ducati

[Robot]

I read an article in February 2008 Motor Cyclist. I was surprised at how many companies have patents on desmodromic (controlled track)(mechanically actuated up AND down) engine valves. Mercedes,Porche,Fiat,Moto Guzzi,Norton, and BMW all have desmodromic valve patents.

Latest rumor is Japanese bike manufactures are looking at them, because some MotoGP engines are reving up to 20,000 rpms. This site has links to MANY desmodromic pictures/designs by many manufacturers.



http://members.chello.nl/~wgj.jansen/text/englishclass.html

 

[hbr]

I like this one best:

http://members.chello.nl/~wgj.jansen/text/ducatitwovalve.html

 

[mountainmotor]

The MotoGP GSV-R 990 V-4 was using a Pneumatic Valve Train in 2006 and all of season 2007 . Early season 2007 Kawasaki got going on it and after the Brno race Rossi's Yamaha was sporting it . # 46 DNF'd first time out with it though .

Honda will be using it in 2008 . I'd be much surprised if Honda does not have a patent on some type of Pneumatic Valve Train .

Anyway ,I am not positive but believe at least Yamaha had to lease the technology and the others might have as well . That MotoGP stuff is a tight lipped group .

My question is will we see it used and homegelated in the liter class Japanese Super Bikes any time soon . I kinda think we might see a V-4 Suzuki 1000 before that though . It's already past time that the current valve spring technology can't quite keep up with the demands of the modern racing engine's need to rev up to the moon to keep a step ahead of the other guy . Smaller cam buckets on one side of the head like the GSXR1000 ect .

 

[bigoltool]

Desmodromic valve actuation is far from new tecnology. But the fact that it enacts positive control for nearly 100% of the valves range of motion as opposed to springs, which have a hard time maintaining control(bounce)at higher rev's has truly only been taken to these levels by Ducati so far. Most of the other MotoGP guys are using Pneumatic valves ala F1 now to try and do the same thing. I was in awe last year at the Shanghai GP when I saw Stoners Tach readout at the end of the straight at over 18,000 rpm's.

Link

 

[DaCol.]

The main reason for looking

at them with the 20,000 RPM levels is because there is no possibility of valve float. A VERY BAD THING

Awwwwwwwww

, but the maintance and setting of them IS A PAIN IN THE BUCKUS

 

[RYC1966]

Other than the design, which is beyond me, are there metal that metals that make up the parts exotic? I would assume Ti and Al...do those moto gp motors get torn down and improved each time out? or do rules keep them honest for a season at a time?

 

[Dobieman]

I was in awe last year at the Shanghai GP when I saw Stoners Tach readout at the end of the straight at over 18,000 rpm's.

First thing that I thought about when I started reading this thread. Up to that point I had no idea that Ducati could rev like that. Now if I could only afford that limited edition D16RR moto gp based bike Ducati is putting out now that the engine size went down to 800cc.

 

[mountainmotor]

There was a recent topic circled around MotoGp and tire brands along with Rossi being able to race with Bridgestones now and having a better chance in 2008 on them .

Yamaha and Rossi does not seem to be much of a concern to Claudio Dominecali while he speaks in this free MotoGP.com press conference .

Honda was the one that wanted the 800 because they thought they had a machine devloped that would anialate the competition . Honda was off mark last year but , Claudio says it best .

News Conference

 

[05 Busa LE]

Interesting thread.

A few years ago, everyone (including me) wondered why Ducati held onto the desmo, when it seemed like pneumatic technology was the wave of the future--especially since it had been "tested" in F1. Now it seems that with Ducati's MotoGP championship, everyone's reconsidering the desmo. And it's also interesting that Ducati is looking at Honda as its biggest challenge this year.

 

[Robot]

Great feedback! I figured there would be. If I recall correctly, part of the original,(long ago), design reasons was valve springs breaking and destroying engines. Thanks all for the info and insight into this design.

 

[mountainmotor]

Some of you may be interested on reading about this technical advancement in valve train technology.


The Bishop Rotary Valve

 

[Robot]

Some of you may be interested on reading about this technical advancement in valve train technology.


The Bishop Rotary Valve

Wow!, neat approach, conventional valve is constantly starting/stopping and then reversing motion(recipricating), I can see the benefit of a constant rotational motion.

It aint gonna float(in the valve sense), but, I wonder if the greater surface area with this valve would cause long term wear issues?,although the first page does say increased durability. Only negetive I read was some thermal distorion issues on the side facing the combustion(sounds like they worked through that though).

Cmon Toyota I want those on my next Tacoma! Great Link

 

[cosmo]

Some of you may be interested on reading about this technical advancement in valve train technology.


The Bishop Rotary Valve

Wow x2. The potential for this design seems almost limitless. The "valve" could be designed to deliver a shaped fuel charge.

 

[mountainmotor]

Lastly there's pistons helping rev to the moon . Because of Ferrari wanting to outlaw the aluminum-beryllium material used in some Formula 1 pistons this led to some uses of a new Metal Matrix Composite of various mixes for pistons , liners and they have shown some promise for intake valve material as well. Much new technology involved with pistons for the MotGP bikes spinning up at 18k rpm and beyond is a probable method of getting another aspect of the job done that we never get to see.

These Busa internals seem a little like a John Deere in comparison to the world of Formula 1 and MotoGP.

http://www.pureluckdesign.com/ferrari/f1engine/index.htm

Just a note . Perfect Bore , a UK based Company of F1 fame was aquired by company called Dover which then formed a subsidiary named Performance MotorSports Inc . They are in the USA and have aquired JE Pistons , Wiseco and Carillo in semi recent past .

I have not seen any of this newer technology passed down to the motorcycle racing community as of yet .

 

[mountainmotor]

I googled and found the timeline of when JE ,Wiseco and Carrillo was gathered up under one arm of sorts.


http://www.doverpmi.com/history.html

 

[Robot]

Lastly there's pistons helping rev to the moon . Because of Ferrari wanting to outlaw the aluminum-beryllium material used in some Formula 1 pistons this led to some uses of a new Metal Matrix Composite of various mixes for pistons , liners and they have shown some promise for intake valve material as well. Much new technology involved with pistons for the MotGP bikes spinning up at 18k rpm and beyond is a probable method of getting another aspect of the job done that we never get to see.

These Busa internals seem a little like a John Deere in comparison to the world of Formula 1 and MotoGP.

http://www.pureluckdesign.com/ferrari/f1engine/index.htm

Just a note . Perfect Bore , a UK based Company of F1 fame was aquired by company called Dover which then formed a subsidiary named Performance MotorSports Inc . They are in the USA and have aquired JE Pistons , Wiseco and Carillo in semi recent past .

I have not seen any of this newer technology passed down to the motorcycle racing community as of yet .

I saw a show on F1, some time back. They are SERIOUS. Serious exotic materials, serious cutting edge engineering, even serious about how they train their drivers etc.

    At the time of the show, a couple years of so ago, a F1 driver was the second highest paid athelete in the world.

    I guess alot of americans are ignorant(at least myself), as to what goes on in F1, perhaps NASCAR likes it that way.

NOTE: Disclaimer, no NASCAR jabs are intended or implied as I live in the NASCAR loving state of Virginny and would not like to alienate my kin(inlaws).

Have I thouroughly hijacked my thread?

 

[mountainmotor]

It even goes beyond that . I've seen and worked with some serious elixer's of engine oils thats using metals that contain napthenates of this , oleates of that . Certainly newer cutting edge technology .

Then there is the whats the best oil for a 650hp turbo Busa topics . I decided not to help a guy do a lock step oil analysis study on a Land Speed bike when i learned of what oil he was hell bent on using .

There you go , i got off the valve train topic as well but all this is what's helping them increase the RPM's 

Did you know that one or more of the Briggs and Stratton Lawn engines are using a composite connecting rod ? For real !