Gen 1 vs Gen 2 turbo long term build questions

[1300cccappuccino]

Hello



As the title suggests I have some questions about gen 1 vs gen 2 engines.

I have attached some photos from the internet to show how small these cappuccinos are.


Project details:



Engine is going in a Suzuki cappuccino time attack race car.



Project outline:



1400lbs target weight

550-650 Hp power goal

Id1700cc injectors

Maxxecu / haltech / aem what’s preferred?

Gtx2867 / g25-660 / PSR 5449A

Wossner pistons / rods

Full crank / block / head stud kit

Hardened shift shafts

Billet clutch basket

Hd clutch springs

Slave cylinder brace

EBay monster plenum intake manifold

Surge tank / aem 400 lph fuel pump

Dry sump

E98 to E50 for fuel possibly methenol



Please feel free to tear this list apart or add to it.



I am very familiar with the set up of stand alone Ecu’s I’m not really a tuner but I used to build cars for a living. It’s been a long time since I’ve needed a stand alone that can do things like traction control, by gear boost compensation, and rolling anti lag. What would you go with in the sub $2000 range?



Ok back to my original question. With this as the build plan… gen 1 or gen 2 as a staring platform? Where I am at gen 1 complete bikes are available in the $1800 range. Gen 2 stuff seems to be 2-3x more expensive.



Questions:



1. Does the gen 2 engine case / gear set / oil pump/ internal passages etc have any advantages over gen 1?



2. From what I understand gen 2 has weak valve springs. How are the rest of the components in the head on both gens?



3. The stroke is a bit different as well from what I gather. Is one crank stronger than the other?



4. gen 1 vs 2 clutch set ups. Does one have better aftermarket support than the other? Does any one sell a 10 plate basket? Is a lock up the only way to hold the sort of power I am trying to make?



5. does any one get rid of the individual throttles and use a single large throttle body at any point for making power?

 

[Tony Nitrous]

Not 100% answering your questions but in the ball park….

Gen-2’s around here go for noticeably more money due to…

* They are obviously newer bikes.
* Better factory ECU’s.
* Stronger more reliable 2nd gears.
* Noticeably better brakes.

You also get a better choice having the longest production run.

Having said that, some of the fastest most powerful Busa’s I’ve seen have been based around Gen-1’s that have been built right and have money thrown at them.

 

[1300cccappuccino]

Not 100% answering your questions but in the ball park….

Gen-2’s around here go for noticeably more money due to…

* They are obviously newer bikes.
* Better factory ECU’s.
* Stronger more reliable 2nd gears.
* Noticeably better brakes.

You also get a better choice having the longest production run.

Having said that, some of the fastest most powerful Busa’s I’ve seen have been based around Gen-1’s that have been built right and have money thrown at them.

Money really is the the great equalizer haha!

If I was not planning on going stand alone I think the gen 2 ecu would make it worth the extra money. I haven’t heard or read anything about the gear boxes yet! Are any of the other gen 2 gears stronger? Do the whole gear boxes have to be changed out or can you swap the primary and main shaft gear sets between clusters?

 

[sixpack577]

Maxx ecu is the way to go

@smithabusa from www.boostbysmith.com
is here too, and he can build you whatever you need.

welcome to the org

 

[Dnyce]

Those are cool little cars

U should do the trans whether u get a gen 1 or gen 2 so that’s negligible. Same with valve springs.

gen 2 will just get u 40 more cc due to the crank, better cams and 4 more injectors ….. u can put a gen 2 crank and cams into n a gen 1, and with a stand alone u can have as many injectors as u want.

Htp has built some single throttle body plenums.

 

[1300cccappuccino]

Those are cool little cars

U should do the trans whether u get a gen 1 or gen 2 so that’s negligible. Same with valve springs.

gen 2 will just get u 40 more cc due to the crank, better cams and 4 more injectors ….. u can put a gen 2 crank and cams into n a gen 1, and with a stand alone u can have as many injectors as u want.

Htp has built some single throttle body plenums.

Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say I should do the trans either way? There are a few companies that sell uprated gear boxes like NOVA for example.

 

[airborneuph]

Something to consider .. For high load/boost motors most builders recommend a Gen I cylinder .. The Gen II cylinders have webbing in them dedicated to reducing crankcase windage, which is prone to cracking under the loads imposed by high boost levels ..

 

[202mphbusa]

Something to consider .. For high load/boost motors most builders recommend a Gen I cylinder .. The Gen II cylinders have webbing in them dedicated to reducing crankcase windage, which is prone to cracking under the loads imposed by high boost levels ..

Gen 2 block are fine for Unbored applications
I have used one for 5-8 years and it has been land speed racing and seen 28 PSI boost
Boring them is when they crack

In a minicar application either gen gearbox should be sent out for inspection/under cutting

 

[Tony Nitrous]

I haven’t heard or read anything about the gear boxes yet! Are any of the other gen 2 gears stronger?

If I was doing a serious money big horsepower build I’d be looking at better gears on either.

The Gen-1 has a bit of a reputation for weaker second gears that the later bikes don’t. Having owned several 1299’s and 1340’s that have had a hard life, the only failure I’ve had was a Gen-1 streetbike that had very little abuse and failed at half the mileage of my Gen-2’s. The fact that there are businesses advertising “Get your Gen-1 second gear fixed here” says it all.

For your application I wouldn’t rule out a Gen-1, it’s just something to upgrade and it’s probably a lot more related to stock(ish) road bikes than serious builds who’d be upgrading anyway.

 

[airborneuph]

Gen 2 block are fine for Unbored applications
I have used one for 5-8 years and it has been land speed racing and seen 28 PSI boost
Boring them is when they crack

Steve Knecum (KRE race engines) may beg to differ with you on that one ..

 

[Dnyce]

Really if gen 2 stuff is 2x-3x, a gen 1 is a no brainer. All the replacement parts or work is going to cost the same regardless of gen, they’re basically the same parts.

Using a standalone u can even add 4 more injectors to a gen 1 if u wanted.

My turbo is a gen 1, spare engine is gen 1, about to build another gen 1. Bcuz it’s cheaper. Maybe one day I’ll get a gen 2 crank to put in a motor but my brain always says hey it’s a turbo, just add more boost and save $1800 lol

 

[1300cccappuccino]

Really if gen 2 stuff is 2x-3x, a gen 1 is a no brainer. All the replacement parts or work is going to cost the same regardless of gen, they’re basically the same parts.

Using a standalone u can even add 4 more injectors to a gen 1 if u wanted.

My turbo is a gen 1, spare engine is gen 1, about to build another gen 1. Bcuz it’s cheaper. Maybe one day I’ll get a gen 2 crank to put in a motor but my brain always says hey it’s a turbo, just add more boost and save $1800 lol

Gen 1 seemed to be the better option to me as well, I figured I should ask the community about it to ensure I’m not missing some viral component! Sometimes cheaper is better and sometimes the cheaper route ends up being a lot more work / money . Thanks for your response.