Indifference

[Projekt]

Two Gypsy teens drown on Italian Seaside amidst sunbathers
See link for pics.

CNN) -- Italian newspapers, an archbishop and civil liberties campaigners expressed shock and revulsion on Monday after photographs were published of sunbathers apparently enjoying a day at the beach just meters from where the bodies of two drowned Gypsy girls were laid out on the sand.

The bodies of two drowned Gypsy girls were laid out on the sand under beach towels.

Italian news agency ANSA reported that the incident had occurred on Saturday at the beach of Torregaveta, west of Naples, southern Italy, where the two girls had earlier been swimming in the sea with two other Gypsy girls. Reports said they had gone to the beach to beg and sell trinkets.

Local news reports said the four girls found themselves in trouble amid fierce waves and strong currents. Emergency services responded 10 minutes after a distress call was made from the beach and two lifeguards attended the girls upon hearing their screams.

Two of them were pulled to safety but rescuers failed to reach the other two in time to save them.

The Web site of the Archbishop of Naples said the girls were cousins named Violetta and Cristina, aged 12 and 13.

Their bodies were eventually laid out on the sand under beach towels to await collection by police. Photographs show sunbathers in bikinis and swimming trunks sitting close to where the girls' feet can be seen poking out from under the towels concealing their bodies. A photographer who took photos at the scene told CNN the mood among sunbathers had been one of indifference.

Other photos show police officers lifting the bodies into coffins and carrying them away past bathers reclined on sun loungers.

"While the lifeless bodies of the girls were still on the sand, there were those who carried on sunbathing or having lunch just a few meters away," Italian newspaper La Repubblica reported.

Corriere della Sera said that a crowd of curious onlookers that had formed around the bodies quickly dispersed.

"Few left the beach or abandoned their sunbathing. When the police from the mortuary arrived an hour later with coffins, the two girls were carried away between bathers stretched out in the sun."

The incident also attracted condemnation from the Archbishop of Naples, Cardinal Crecenzio Seppe. "Indifference is not an emotion for human beings," Seppe wrote in his parish blog. "To turn the other way or to mind your own business can sometimes be more devastating than the events that occur."

Recent weeks have seen heightened tensions between Italian authorities and the country's Gypsy minority amid a crackdown by Silvo Berlusconi's government targeting illegal immigrants and talk by government officials of a "Roma emergency" that has seen the 150,000-strong migrant group blamed for rising street crime.

That has provided justification for police raids on Gypsy camps and controversial government plans to fingerprint all Gypsies -- an act condemned by the European Parliament and United Nations officials as a clear act of racial discrimination. Popular resentment against Gypsies has also seen Gypsy camps near Naples attacked and set on fire with petrol bombs by local residents.

In a statement published on its Web site, the Italian civil liberties group EveryOne said Saturday's drowning had occurred in an atmosphere of "racism and horror" and cast doubt on the reported version of events, suggesting that it appeared unusual for the four girls to wade into the sea, apparently casting modesty aside and despite being unable to swim.

"The most shocking aspect of all this is the attitude of the people on the beach," the statement said. "No one appears the slightest upset at the sight and presence of the children's dead bodies on the beach: they carry on swimming, sunbathing, sipping soft drinks and chatting."

All I can say is Damn.

 

[captain]

I think the big question I have is... How many of the people still laying there knew two girls were killed. How many knew that those bodies that were laying there we not just laying on the sand just like themselves? Is this just another spin from the media....

cap

 

[jefferycarman]

I was thinking along the same lines Cap, and I think hoping that it's more like that.

I would hate to think that the masses could do something like that...

 

[solarbarack]

I have to agree with Cap on this one. The news tends to bring out the worst in people.

 

[Projekt]

Yes, agreed. It could be that they were covered long enough to have other people come by and settle in for a day on the beach. However, the Roma (Gypsy) people are an easily identified and targeted group to be hated and persecuted. They are the underbelly of society in Europe, the people that pick through trash, beg and clean windshields at stoplights.
Recently, in the Czech Republic many illiterate Roma women were duped into signing agreements to be sterilized upon delivering babies. Full hysterectomies were performed on the women, not just simple tubal ligation. They were targeted because of their high rates of reproduction.

 

[jefferycarman]

There is definitly some messed up things that go on out there. The media never portrays it as it is, just makes it as bad as possible for the sake of ratings. It's hard to believe that anyone could be that calloused about a pair of young girls drowning, let alone a whole beach full of people, regardless of ethnicity. It's possible though, given the current situation there, but I would hope it's not really true, that it's just a media twist looking for ratings.

If it's not...

 

[Mr Bogus]

Yes, agreed. It could be that they were covered long enough to have other people come by and settle in for a day on the beach. However, the Roma (Gypsy) people are an easily identified and targeted group to be hated and persecuted. They are the underbelly of society in Europe, the people that pick through trash, beg and clean windshields at stoplights.
Recently, in the Czech Republic many illiterate Roma women were duped into signing agreements to be sterilized upon delivering babies. Full hysterectomies were performed on the women, not just simple tubal ligation. They were targeted because of their high rates of reproduction.

we have the same type of people here... they live in all 50 states, are 22 million strong and claim, education, health and welfare benefits on the backs of "LEGAL" residents. They pop out kids that are instantly US Citizens and then the adults go on our already troubled SS system...

Sorry to sound so harsh but we are in deep trouble and we are shipping billions to Africa for AIDS, more billions in aid to illegal US residents and telling our vets and other less fortunate to screw off....

Guess in Europe, they do and label things differently and it all goes at the whim of the press...

 

[Projekt]

Yes, agreed. It could be that they were covered long enough to have other people come by and settle in for a day on the beach. However, the Roma (Gypsy) people are an easily identified and targeted group to be hated and persecuted. They are the underbelly of society in Europe, the people that pick through trash, beg and clean windshields at stoplights.
Recently, in the Czech Republic many illiterate Roma women were duped into signing agreements to be sterilized upon delivering babies. Full hysterectomies were performed on the women, not just simple tubal ligation. They were targeted because of their high rates of reproduction.

we have the same type of people here... they live in all 50 states, are 22 million strong and claim, education, health and welfare benefits on the backs of "LEGAL" residents. They pop out kids that are instantly US Citizens and then the adults go on our already troubled SS system...

Sorry to sound so harsh but we are in deep trouble and we are shipping billions to Africa for AIDS, more billions in aid to illegal US residents and telling our vets and other less fortunate to screw off....  

Guess in Europe, they do and label things differently and it all goes at the whim of the press...

So, you would condone sterilization for these "nuisance" groups of people?

 

[Mr Bogus]

I know it sounds quite inhumane but it is causing incredible stress to the US economy, but there are a lot of illegal's causing a lot of havoc on our system (note that California health service are really compromised in the southern half of the state, many if not most ER's have closed)

Sterilization? well I am not going to argue the "ethics" behind it but China has led this cause for many years.. they only allow a single child..

Yes it would be great to adopt the "touch feely, feel good" position here but one must also look at the big picture..

As I am not really subject to the issues there..(are they really at the heart of the crime wave?) or problems that they may or may not be causing, I could not say with good conscious, either way.. I do think some people should not be allowed to breed however...

I suppose this falls along the same moral debate as abortion and so no one is going to change point of view, they will only argue till blue in the face

 

[Projekt]

Okay.. I see. You pretty much covered the pros and cons. I tend to agree somewhat.

 

[jefferycarman]

There is diffinitive issues with the way are system is used and abused. At times I do think we need to just shut the door and tell people to get lost till we get this system back on stable ground.

I personally am a veteran who service related injuries who is fighting to get some help from the governement. And a friend of mines family, parents are both illegals, walked in and were handed checks...

I may seem insensitive, but that's a slap in the face.

 

[Mr Bogus]

It really is a tough subject IMO and glad I am not forced into making some kind of decision on what to do about it..

I guess I would first have to say 'take care of our own' (and make the USA look further bad in many foreigners eyes) but the USA is the largest source of humanitarian funding in the world (as it should be with the abundance of wealth) but I think we need to protect that ability as well...

You have a view (I mean living in Bosnia) that is probably of a larger scope than I could have (having only lived in the states).. So I am trying to see the "big" picture... kind of hard to do living in a somewhat sheltered (our press sucks) existence...

how would you say most view this from your side of the world?

 

[thrasherfox]

I don't agree with sterilization, but I do think EVERYONE that is in the United States illegally should be deported immediately.

Further more I think that anyone that is here illegally should be chipped, a sample of their DNA logged into a searchable database and never be allowed entry BACK into the United States legally or otherwise, and if they are caught back in the United States then they should be locked up in a prison where they get one cell, no phone calls, no tv, 3 meals a day and 1 hour in a yard, by themselves.

San Francisco, freak show of the world is currently going through a huge issue over this.

Because they have designated themselves and a so called safe haven where illegal's are allowed to live and nothing will be done to them, they was some punk who was an illegal, had been arrested numerous times for different reasons, just recently some father and his two sons accidentally blocked this guy somehow or another with his car, realized what he did and unblocked his punk a$$ and he shot and killed the father and his two sons anyway.

While I have issues with illegal immigration, I guess I would just turn the cheek for the most part at this time IF all illegal's came over here, and busted their butts to make things better for themselves and their families.

But when you have illegal immigrants coming over here and committing crimes, living off of our tax payer provide social system I have issues with that.

On my way to work I once in awhile stop at a store on the way to work, 5:30am, bunch of farm workers are in there first thing in the morning buying these huge bottles of beer, then you see them get in their vehicles and drive away.

My personally opinion is if you have to start your day off drinking, and you are obviously driving at some point while you are drinking or at least under the influence, and if you are an illegal you are driving on MY fricken streets without a license.

And if you don't have a license and are an illegal you probably don't have insurance on your vehicle.

So why am I supposed to have ANY fricken sympathy for an individual driving on the same roads as me who starts their day out drinking and has no license, no insurance and if they get into an accident with someone they have no ability to pay for anything?

I know not all illegal immigrants are like that, I know some are hard working and they are trying to do what is best for their family, but where I live most seem to be either involved in gangs or spend their entire day drunk and doing the minimal to get by in life and are living off our system that I am helping pay for.

Pisses me off

 

[Projekt]

Pertaining to the Roma/Gypsy question, many people would deny their disdain for them here and in other places in Europe. However, the hatred is just under the surface. In Bosnia, the Roma people exist on the fringes of society, it results in a culture clash. Many of them are out begging in the middle of traffic on the major intersections at a very early age looking like they are still in diapers accompanied by heavily pregnant mothers holding newborns. I'll admit that I have asked aloud "why don't they use birth control". As they grow up, they trade up for aggresive windshield washing positions.
They haven't been legitimized here being accused of most theft and petty crime.
Their shanties are in the shadow of new high rise buildings. In my experience, the best organized Roma groups are in Hungary but even there, they are still looked down upon. All of this occuring even though most Hungarians will freely admit that they are descendants of Roma.
A common sight in the towns of Hungary is a Gypsy driving a horse drawn cart while talking in the Mobile phone..
I could go on and on..

 

[thrasherfox]

I didnt even address the whole Gypsy issue becuse honestly I dont know enough about it to make any comments.

I know historically (at least in my life in the United states) Gypsy's more than often are portrayed as beggers, scam artists, vagabonds etc.

But I know nothing of the real situation.

But I cant help to feel sorry for two teenage girls who drowned, regardless of who they are. Becuase for the most part a teenager is how their parents molded them to be (in one way or another)

 

[jefferycarman]

I couldn't agree with you more Thrasher. The tragedy is that these two girls died and it's being used by the media to shove in issue into the faces of the people. Most of whom already know that the issue exists.

On the American immigration issue, I would personally be happy to ship any illegal immigrants out and have them not return. I work with a few immigrants who have gone throught he process, paid thier taxes, and worked thier butts of to get citizenship. They get almost as mad, if not more so, when it comes to people not paying into the system and draining it away.

I don't envy the people who have to run these programs, but I do question some of our policies.

And possibly the sanity of people who fight harder for an illigal immigrants rights then to help a disabled veteran, and by disabled I am talking about the guys coming back missing limbs, mentally broken, and extreme cases. Those should be top priority over someone who isn't legally here, doesn't pay into the system, and especially those who are here just breaking laws and going to prison or being deported.

 

[Mr Bogus]

I didnt even address the whole Gypsy issue becuse honestly I dont know enough about it to make any comments.

I know historically (at least in my life in the United states) Gypsy's more than often are portrayed as beggers, scam artists, vagabonds etc.

to many "Cher" songs....

They have been the target of religious persecution for since the time of Christ.. I think it is the American "Movie" portrayal that has lead to the funky view of them here...

It was my understanding that they were thought of more in a "spiritual" realm (not a positive one) as in decedents of Satan, and typically in line with the occult etc.. Due to discrimination they were pretty much forced into nomadic lifestyles.. (just my understanding, not sure how accurate that is) A tough life to say the least.. being considered to be less than human would be a tough road..