Single Topic Debate #17

[Projekt]

How about this one.
Is the citizenry of this great nation truly free. This is a broadscope discussion designed to include all perspectives of the definition of freedom.
Key sub-topics are the following:
Religious
Economic
Philosophical
Sexual
Racial
Civil
to include others.

I am convinced that the populous is not free when speaking of any of the above.
Ask me why.

 

[Big Bo]

Why?

 

[chrisjp]

how can it be free...if you pay for a service...and you get NO results

 

[thepushercg]

if it was free it is not anymore
everthing is money motivated
good topic #2 for you

 

[Devious]

Regardless of rather we are really free, or if our freedom is just an illusion...
I would rather be free, or at least believe I'm free, here in the Good ol USA, than in any other Country in the World...
Besides, I'm more concerned about North Korea than being mislead by my own Country just now...
However, we do gots our problems...

David

 

[thepushercg]

i agree with you devious, regardless of what i or we think about the pitfalls of america there is not any other country i would want to live my life in. but i do not want to take away from what projekt thread is about. i just want to clairify my postion.

 

[BusaWhipped]

Key sub-topics are the following:
Religious - No. The athiests and liberals are taking our religious freedoms claiming that our Constitution requires separation of church and State. The irony is that the Amendment they quote is the Amendment that guarentees our religios freedom. The idea of separation of church and State waas intoduced in this country in the 60s, and can be found in the Comunist constitution. I guess if you can't beat a coutry militarily, you find a way to bring it down from the inside.

Economic - Yes. Not everyone is economically free, but Americans are given the opportunity to become economically free. Most Americans do not take advantage of those opportunities.

Philosophical - Yes. Look at all of the crap printed in the media and on the internet. In many counties one would be jailed or worse for less.

Sexual - No. The US must be among the most sexually repressed countries in the world. Violence is OK, as long as everyone is fully dressed on while maming and killing.

Racial - Yes. Maybe I'm nieve, but I think the opportunities are there for everyone. Yes, there are still racists in his country, but I think anyone who wants to succeed can find and take advantage of the opporunities available in America.

Civil - Yes. While there are groups in America trying to take our liberities away from us, we can still assemble, march, protest, and bare arms. With these liberties come responsibility. Unfortunately many Americans are not responsible, which fuels the fires of those who think we are too free and need to be controlled.

I would not want to live anywhere else. Just my $0.02

 

[Projekt]

Religion: Not free... We are lead by a conservative group of ultra-rich that push a religiously motivated brand of control in order to accomplish the specific agendas at hand. George Bush said something using the word "God" to sell the overthrow of Hussein to the American (generally secular) populous. The populous being the one that needs convincing in order to not protest the spending of hundreds of American non-viable lives in the war and 100's of billions of our Tax dollars back and forth from US treasury to Iraq back to Halliburton in Houston Texas. We cannot see a lot of stuff on TV due to the FCC and it's religious conservative controls.

Economic: Not Free... Due to Capitalism ( particularly our form of predatory hypercapitalism) we are sold the Ideas that we need to have this big'ole truck and this big'ole house to stay ahead of the Jones'. We need to have a house on the lake with the jetski's and all of that is not really ours even if we hold a deed. This is because most of present day home-owners have taken out loans to "buy" "their" homes. Those homes gained value in this latest economic upswing and many if not most of those homeowners took more loans (equity) against the value to pay off other debts. That has resulted in a lot of people ending up as economic SLAVES. Slaves are not free, at least the last time I checked they weren't.

Philisophical: Not free... The Dixie Chicks as well as many others that spoke out against GWB were pigeonholed and made to suffer for their statements. Yes this is questionably philosophical. However what is not questionable is the idea of Polygamy in various cultural (philosophical) environments. That is illegal, also the Branch Davidians were roasted for their philosophy. Then you have all of the various "militia" groups that attempt to shut themselves off from society and self-sustain. They get firebombed at every opportunity because the IRS wants to get paid.

Sexual: Not Free... Homos get beat up and killed. They get blamed for AIDS. Many states still have laws on the books so that they can prosecute alternative lifestyle participants if they just can't find anything else to bust them for. Lesbians are just cool though well unless they are in the military and try to take a public stand and that applies to gays too.
Let'm ball who they want to.

Racial: Not Free... Examples of this exists and rears it's head onto this board regularly. There is talk of fringe races in a negative way here. There is talk of non-whites here and their negative contributions to this clean American society. And, dare I say, some members of this board belong to supremist groups whether they admit it or not.
A few college programs and labor codes do very little to help the non-viables come up in this society. Oh well there's always the service.. They'll employ the mexicans/hispanics, blacks, philipinos, slavs, polish and a bunch of other ethnics, all you have to do is spend some time in the desert getting oil for Bush's friends and maybe catch a bullet or two...

Civil: Not Free... You have ghettos and barrios and slums full of poor black folks, poor latinos, and poor everything else. They are labeled and targetted for their stereotypical means of gaining financial freedom. They are prosecuted and imprisoned to be a ward of the state. A ward of the state that learns to sew and make Jeans and Boots and Uniforms and various other industrial products for some slavemaster corporation that would rather see them in jail in order to pay them pennies rather than employ them in honest labor out in the free world.

 

[Projekt]

I still think America is full of opportunity....
I just look at all of the perspectives.

 

[onerabidshark]

the only way I can put it is we are less and less free every single day you cannot keep making laws with out eventually taking more and more from us

 

[Devious]

(Projekt @ Oct. 10 2006,10:54) Religion: Not free... We are lead by a conservative group of ultra-rich that push a religiously motivated brand of control in order to accomplish the specific agendas at hand. George Bush said something using the word "God" to sell the overthrow of Hussein to the American (generally secular) populous. The populous being the one that needs convincing in order to not protest the spending of hundreds of American non-viable lives in the war and 100's of billions of our Tax dollars back and forth from US treasury to Iraq back to Halliburton in Houston Texas. We cannot see a lot of stuff on TV due to the FCC and it's religious conservative controls.

Economic: Not Free... Due to Capitalism ( particularly our form of predatory hypercapitalism) we are sold the Ideas that we need to have this big'ole truck and this big'ole house to stay ahead of the Jones'. We need to have a house on the lake with the jetski's and all of that is not really ours even if we hold a deed. This is because most of present day home-owners have taken out loans to "buy" "their" homes. Those homes gained value in this latest economic upswing and many if not  most of those homeowners took more loans (equity) against the value to pay off other debts. That has resulted in a lot of people ending up as economic SLAVES. Slaves are not free, at least the last time I checked they weren't.

Philisophical: Not free... The Dixie Chicks as well as many others that spoke out against GWB were pigeonholed and made to suffer for their statements. Yes this is questionably philosophical. However what is not questionable is the idea of Polygamy in various cultural (philosophical) environments. That is illegal, also the Branch Davidians were roasted for their philosophy. Then you have all of the various "militia" groups that attempt to shut themselves off from society and self-sustain. They get firebombed at every opportunity because the IRS wants to get paid.

Sexual: Not Free... Homos get beat up and killed. They get blamed for AIDS. Many states still have laws on the books so that they can prosecute alternative lifestyle participants if they just can't find anything else to bust them for. Lesbians are just cool though well unless they are in the military and try to take a public stand and that applies to gays too.
Let'm ball who they want to.

Racial: Not Free... Examples of this exists and rears it's head onto this board regularly. There is talk of fringe races in a negative way here. There is talk of non-whites here and their negative contributions to this clean American society. And, dare I say, some members of this board belong to supremist groups whether they admit it or not.
A few college programs and labor codes do very little to help the non-viables come up in this society. Oh well there's always the service.. They'll employ the mexicans/hispanics, blacks, philipinos, slavs, polish and a bunch of other ethnics, all you have to do is spend some time in the desert getting oil for Bush's friends and maybe catch a bullet or two...

Civil: Not Free... You have ghettos and barrios and slums full of poor black folks, poor latinos, and poor everything else. They are labeled and targetted for their stereotypical means of gaining financial freedom. They are prosecuted and imprisoned to be a ward of the state. A ward of the state that learns to sew and make Jeans and Boots and Uniforms and various other industrial products for some slavemaster corporation that would rather see them in jail in order to pay them pennies rather than employ them in honest labor out in the free world.

You said Homos...
I'm gonna tell...

David

 

[dinoap]

Everything has been paid for with the blood of our patriots, fathers, brothers, sisters, grandfathers.......so no our rights were not free....not even the right to question how free we truly are is free.

 

[Jet Li]

Religion: Not free... We are lead by a conservative group of ultra-rich that push a religiously motivated brand of control in order to accomplish the specific agendas at hand. George Bush said something using the word "God" to sell the overthrow of Hussein to the American (generally secular) populous. The populous being the one that needs convincing in order to not protest the spending of hundreds of American non-viable lives in the war and 100's of billions of our Tax dollars back and forth from US treasury to Iraq back to Halliburton in Houston Texas. We cannot see a lot of stuff on TV due to the FCC and it's religious conservative controls.

1)I agree with you on censorship by the press, but people do have the ability to choose their religious beliefs. Sure there is a lot of "selling" religion but in the end, people still make their own choices, misguided or not.

Economic: Not Free... Due to Capitalism ( particularly our form of predatory hypercapitalism) we are sold the Ideas that we need to have this big'ole truck and this big'ole house to stay ahead of the Jones'. We need to have a house on the lake with the jetski's and all of that is not really ours even if we hold a deed. This is because most of present day home-owners have taken out loans to "buy" "their" homes. Those homes gained value in this latest economic upswing and many if not most of those homeowners took more loans (equity) against the value to pay off other debts. That has resulted in a lot of people ending up as economic SLAVES. Slaves are not free, at least the last time I checked they weren't.

2)Again, no one is brought to the mortgage broker at gunpoint and forced to refinance their home so they can pay off bills or just have more money. I know bad things happen like lost employment and therefore lost income and ability to pay, but I do not think that is to what you are speaking.

Philisophical: Not free... The Dixie Chicks as well as many others that spoke out against GWB were pigeonholed and made to suffer for their statements. Yes this is questionably philosophical. However what is not questionable is the idea of Polygamy in various cultural (philosophical) environments. That is illegal, also the Branch Davidians were roasted for their philosophy. Then you have all of the various "militia" groups that attempt to shut themselves off from society and self-sustain. They get firebombed at every opportunity because the IRS wants to get paid.

3)Sure the Chicks were blackballed for a while. Their comments were very unpatriotic. This is a society of majority rules, so it did! You are infact free philisophically, that does not mean that everyone will agree with you.

Sexual: Not Free... Homos get beat up and killed. They get blamed for AIDS. Many states still have laws on the books so that they can prosecute alternative lifestyle participants if they just can't find anything else to bust them for. Lesbians are just cool though well unless they are in the military and try to take a public stand and that applies to gays too.
Let'm ball who they want to.

4)Homosexuality and the spread of AIDS is a proven medical fact of life. No one ever said that was the only way AIDS is spread.

Racial: Not Free... Examples of this exists and rears it's head onto this board regularly. There is talk of fringe races in a negative way here. There is talk of non-whites here and their negative contributions to this clean American society. And, dare I say, some members of this board belong to supremist groups whether they admit it or not.
A few college programs and labor codes do very little to help the non-viables come up in this society. Oh well there's always the service.. They'll employ the mexicans/hispanics, blacks, philipinos, slavs, polish and a bunch of other ethnics, all you have to do is spend some time in the desert getting oil for Bush's friends and maybe catch a bullet or two...

Civil: Not Free... You have ghettos and barrios and slums full of poor black folks, poor latinos, and poor everything else. They are labeled and targetted for their stereotypical means of gaining financial freedom. They are prosecuted and imprisoned to be a ward of the state. A ward of the state that learns to sew and make Jeans and Boots and Uniforms and various other industrial products for some slavemaster corporation that would rather see them in jail in order to pay them pennies rather than employ them in honest labor out in the free world.

5)I am naturalized U.S. citizen. I was born in the Philippines and adopted at age 2 years. I have never used my minority status to my advantage (well except to get girls, natural year round tan and all). My adoptive parents (white) never taught me to buy into all that, it is a frame of mind I guess. I paid for college and medical school with part time jobs, achademic scholarships, and loans that I am still repaying. We are free civily, sometimes the freedom must be taken more forcefully than a lot of people have the stomach for.

6)I guess what is being missed here is that freedom has a price and there has to be boundries set. Anarchy will not work, there can't ever be TOTAL freedom. What do you want? Legal homocide for all. I still would take this country over the other options out there.

 

[Projekt]

TpBio,
Man... YOU ARE...



WRONG, WRONG, WRONG....






Nah just kidding. There is no question that what you said is literally true. But, there is a significant degree of oppression dosed onto the people of this nation. It has lead to what we have here in the communities around the US; segregation, believe it or not. There are still many parts of the country that are just that, segregated. Oh and the counter argument is that those people choose to live there and have the same opportunities we all have. Sure, right, I'll press the "I believe button" on that one.

 

[VaBusa]

In a nutshell...

It's land of the free...

(and in teenie tiny print on the bottom, possibly in Spanish or French, maybe braille "as long as you believe what I do")...that about sums it up!  LOL

But, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else...  

 

[paineless4u]

All Gov't's are corrupt, guess you have to live in one your feel is less corrupt.

 

[Wag]

(Projekt @ Oct. 10 2006,09:54)

Man, this topic is WAY complex. I'll give it my best shot.

Religion: Not free... We are lead by a conservative group of ultra-rich that push a religiously motivated brand of control in order to accomplish the specific agendas at hand. George Bush said something using the word "God" to sell the overthrow of Hussein to the American (generally secular) populous. The populous being the one that needs convincing in order to not protest the spending of hundreds of American non-viable lives in the war and 100's of billions of our Tax dollars back and forth from US treasury to Iraq back to Halliburton in Houston Texas. We cannot see a lot of stuff on TV due to the FCC and it's religious conservative controls.[/Quote]

I find it intriguing that you and BusaWhipped have exactly the same idea but you believe that the other side is causing the problem! Very intriguing. Funny thing is, you're both right to a degree in that respect as well! Fact is, Christianity would like nothing more than to force everyone to be Christian. The Puritans were like that, the Crusaders were like that and there are plenty of Christian groups in the world today who are exactly like that. One group even wants to have their own Christian state or island. I don't recall which. The Mormons even now believe that Utah is "their" state.

Still, we have more religious freedom than any other country in the world. Except maybe Canada and U.K.

Economic: Not Free... Due to Capitalism ( particularly our form of predatory hypercapitalism) we are sold the Ideas that we need to have this big'ole truck and this big'ole house to stay ahead of the Jones'. We need to have a house on the lake with the jetski's and all of that is not really ours even if we hold a deed. This is because most of present day home-owners have taken out loans to "buy" "their" homes. Those homes gained value in this latest economic upswing and many if not most of those homeowners took more loans (equity) against the value to pay off other debts. That has resulted in a lot of people ending up as economic SLAVES. Slaves are not free, at least the last time I checked they weren't.[/Quote]

Selling someone the idea that they need material things is NOT taking away their freedom. Nobody twisted their arms behind their backs and made them give it up. No, they gave it up voluntarily and irresponsibly. Not the fault of capitalism. At least with capitalism, you have that degree of choice.

I think there are things which need fixing in our country but I believe in the theory of the Invisible Hand (Adam Smith?) which says that in a free market economy, everything works in the long run to the benefit of everyone.

We have more economic freedom than any other country in the world. Even Canada and U.K.

Philisophical: Not free... The Dixie Chicks as well as many others that spoke out against GWB were pigeonholed and made to suffer for their statements. Yes this is questionably philosophical. However what is not questionable is the idea of Polygamy in various cultural (philosophical) environments. That is illegal, also the Branch Davidians were roasted for their philosophy. Then you have all of the various "militia" groups that attempt to shut themselves off from society and self-sustain. They get firebombed at every opportunity because the IRS wants to get paid.[/Quote]

The Dixie Chix expressed their opinions and other people expressed theirs. I don't see where the government stepped in and took anyone's freedom away. Freedom does not mean freedom from consequences of action, as the DC's found out the hard way.

As for the religious nuts who go overboard, many of them are militantly opposed to the U.S. The Mormons used to swea in secret inside their temples that they would avenge the blood of Joseph Smith on the U.S. government. (I may not have that exatly right.) Eventually, they took that part of their secret oaths out but the idea still pervades the religion to this day.

I don't want a militant group rising up at this point. The governmental problems need to be worked out but we are NOT at the point where we should (or even could) go about doing so with arms. Regardless of the beliefs of the Founding Fathers, may they rest in peace forever. If I have to pay my share of taxes, then by the fires of hell, so do they. Especially since they were given ample warnings and chose to respond with violence when they didn't have to do so.

We have more philosophical freedom than any other country in the world. Especially Canada and U.K.

Sexual: Not Free... Homos get beat up and killed. They get blamed for AIDS. Many states still have laws on the books so that they can prosecute alternative lifestyle participants if they just can't find anything else to bust them for. Lesbians are just cool though well unless they are in the military and try to take a public stand and that applies to gays too.
Let'm ball who they want to.[/Quote]

I agree with you to a degree here. We're making progress, though.

This is one case where it might be better to live in Europe. I'd say the U.S. is about number 10 on the list, though. Sexual repression is still rampant in many countries. As with most freedoms, responsibility must be inherently tied to it or severe damage is caused to the society.

Racial: Not Free... Examples of this exists and rears it's head onto this board regularly. There is talk of fringe races in a negative way here. There is talk of non-whites here and their negative contributions to this clean American society. And, dare I say, some members of this board belong to supremist groups whether they admit it or not.

A few college programs and labor codes do very little to help the non-viables come up in this society. Oh well there's always the service.. They'll employ the mexicans/hispanics, blacks, philipinos, slavs, polish and a bunch of other ethnics, all you have to do is spend some time in the desert getting oil for Bush's friends and maybe catch a bullet or two...[/Quote]

Here too, we're getting better but we've a long way to go. I'm not as racist as I have been in my past. Living in California did a lot to make me realize that all people have good and bad, regardless of color.

I have hillbilly/redneck relatives in Missouri who are KKK members and the hardest core racists you could ever hope to meet. My mother's side of the family.

I've also met blacks, Asians, Indians, Europeans, etc. who are just as racist as they are. They would probably blame each other for their racist attitudes. Pathetic, really.

Of course, the flip side is true. There are awesome people of every race out there and when you meet them, you genuinely lose your perception of their race or color.

Civil: Not Free... You have ghettos and barrios and slums full of poor black folks, poor latinos, and poor everything else. They are labeled and targetted for their stereotypical means of gaining financial freedom. They are prosecuted and imprisoned to be a ward of the state. A ward of the state that learns to sew and make Jeans and Boots and Uniforms and various other industrial products for some slavemaster corporation that would rather see them in jail in order to pay them pennies rather than employ them in honest labor out in the free world.[/Quote]

Sounds like a lot of vitriol there, man. I'm not 100% sure where you're going with that one. Perhaps you could elaborate some more. It sounds like more of a stab from the economics corner than anything else.

Whattaya think?

--Wag--

 

[Projekt]

(VaBusa @ Oct. 10 2006,13:08) In a nutshell...

It's land of the free...

(and in teenie tiny print on the bottom, possibly in Spanish or French, maybe braille "as long as you believe what I do")...that about sums it up!  LOL

But, I wouldn't want to live anywhere else...  

And that is exactly what I'm talking about.
You've boiled it down to the stuff used to flavor gravy..

 

[Projekt]

<span style='color:crimson'>Well well well...

This is exactly the way I like these things to go.

Wag...
You have some excellent points from the perspective you are rooted in.
No doubt that many of your statements have a lot of reason.
But here goes.</span>

(Wag @ Oct. 10 2006,14:06)

(Projekt @ Oct. 10 2006,09:54)

Man, this topic is WAY complex.  I'll give it my best shot.

Religion: Not free...

I find it intriguing that you and BusaWhipped have exactly the same idea but you believe that the other side is causing the problem!  Very intriguing.  Funny thing is, you're both right to a degree in that respect as well!  Fact is, Christianity would like nothing more than to force everyone to be Christian.  The Puritans were like that, the Crusaders were like that and there are plenty of Christian groups in the world today who are exactly like that.  One group even wants to have their own Christian state or island.  I don't recall which.  The Mormons even now believe that Utah is "their" state.

Still, we have more religious freedom than any other country in the world.  Except maybe Canada and U.K.

<span style='color:crimson'>Projekt's Response: It is always the other side and that is exactly the underlying point. You have excellent reading comprehension</span>

Economic: Not Free...[/Quote]

Selling someone the idea that they need material things is NOT taking away their freedom.  Nobody twisted their arms behind their backs and made them give it up.  No, they gave it up voluntarily and irresponsibly.  Not the fault of capitalism.  At least with capitalism, you have that degree of choice.

I think there are things which need fixing in our country but I believe in the theory of the Invisible Hand (Adam Smith?) which says that in a free market economy, everything works in the long run to the benefit of everyone.

We have more economic freedom than any other country in the world.  Even Canada and U.K.

<span style='color:crimson'>Projekt's Response:Yes, well generally speaking I would agree that the good side of Capitalism is heavier than the bad side. But is depends on who looks at it and their economic parameters. You have the poor that desire more (me at the age of 6) and they are psychologically influenced using real psychological marketing techniques (believe it because that is what you will learn in any marketing book) to create a subliminal urge to go buy that. Simple example is the food and snacks character commercials before the movie at the cinema</span>

Philisophical: Not free...[/Quote]

The Dixie Chix expressed their opinions and other people expressed theirs.  I don't see where the government stepped in and took anyone's freedom away.  Freedom does not mean freedom from consequences of action, as the DC's found out the hard way.  

As for the religious nuts who go overboard, many of them are militantly opposed to the U.S.  The Mormons used to swea in secret inside their temples that they would avenge the blood of Joseph Smith on the U.S. government.  (I may not have that exatly right.)  Eventually, they took that part of their secret oaths out but the idea still pervades the religion to this day.

I don't want a militant group rising up at this point.  The governmental problems need to be worked out but we are NOT at the point where we should (or even could) go about doing so with arms.  Regardless of the beliefs of the Founding Fathers, may they rest in peace forever.  If I have to pay my share of taxes, then by the fires of hell, so do they.  Especially since they were given ample warnings and chose to respond with violence when they didn't have to do so.

We have more philosophical freedom than any other country in the world.  Especially Canada and U.K.

<span style='color:crimson'>Projekt's Response: Not much to add there bedsides the fact that you have to consider that there are only a few corporations that own most of the Media broadcasters in this country. And depending on who they support, you'll get the message you get. Such as the defamation of the Dixie Chix.</span>

Sexual: Not Free... [/Quote]

I agree with you to a degree here.  We're making progress, though.  

This is one case where it might be better to live in Europe.  I'd say the U.S. is about number 10 on the list, though.  Sexual repression is still rampant in many countries.  As with most freedoms, responsibility must be inherently tied to it or severe damage is caused to the society.

<span style='color:crimson'>Projekt's Response:Yes true... For example though; last year I went to Istanbul, Turkey and it just so happened that I found a place to stay in the Taksim district.. Gays, Lezzies, and Trannies everywhere around the plazas just having fun and cavorting with all types of people. Big strong men (okay that is kind of a stretch for Turkey) would walk right up to a she male and grab the rear and hug and cuddle. Never in Amerika, well maybe at a parade.</span>

Racial: Not Free... [/Quote]

Here too, we're getting better but we've a long way to go.  I'm not as racist as I have been in my past.  Living in California did a lot to make me realize that all people have good and bad, regardless of color.  

I have hillbilly/redneck relatives in Missouri who are KKK members and the hardest core racists you could ever hope to meet.  My mother's side of the family.  

I've also met blacks, Asians, Indians, Europeans, etc. who are just as racist as they are.  They would probably blame each other for their racist attitudes.  Pathetic, really.  

Of course, the flip side is true.  There are awesome people of every race out there and when you meet them, you genuinely lose your perception of their race or color.  

<span style='color:crimson'>Projekt's Response: Yes agreed</span>

Civil: Not Free...[/Quote]

Sounds like a lot of vitriol there, man.  I'm not 100% sure where you're going with that one.  Perhaps you could elaborate some more.  It sounds like more of a stab from the economics corner than anything else.

Whattaya think?

<span style='color:crimson'>Projekt's Response: Exactly, that is what I intended to purvey, the capitalist mentality behind the imprisonment of these people and how that affects the legal system and the way it prosecutes specific variables. So it is an economic incursion onto the legislative side of civil liberties.</span>

--Wag--[/Quote]

 

[Lazerblade]

If anyone dosen't think the United States is the best place to live, they can come here and take my place and I will return home to enjoy the liberties I am here working for.

Paul