Here comes the tariffs.......

This guy (in my opinion) is NOT a stupid man by any stretch of the imagination....

I ask, how is this trade war started by Trump going to help the economic crisis he has started? No economist will agree with him because what he is doing is economic suicide.

 
Bumblebee said:
There isn't an economist out there that will say Tariffs are a good idea and every one of them that I've read on say the opposite and can't understand why they are being enacted other than petty revenge.....

Threats of annexation, levying tariffs and calling our leader "Governor" is incredibly insulting and childish......(even though our current prime minister is a tool bag....it isn't right).

I do believe the threats Trump is making and the levying of tariffs is a good thing.....it has spawned a new degree of Canadian patriotism (which we needed) and it shows us America isn't our friend and can't be relied on under this administration which forces us to seek other trading partners of which there are many......

We need to get our arses in gear and get our pipelines finished so we can get our oil and gas to other markets which will make our oil worth more......the US is our sole customer and is paying 15 dollars a barrel less than global market prices.....then we buy petroleum back at global prices....

I also think our premiere is being petty enacting a surcharge on electricity sent to the US....there's no need for that but it goes to show just how pissed off we are right now.

I also see America's former allies looking at other venues for their goods and starting to turn their backs on the US.......

Not good.........
Click to expand...
I haven't read much about Doug Ford but when I read this:
“I can’t, for the life of me, figure out why this guy’s attacking his closest neighbors, allies and friend. A tariff on Canada is a tax on Americans" I totally sympathize with him. It boggles the mind. To make it even worse, Trump continues to babble incoherently about Canada joining the U.S. as a 51st state. It's horribly rude and condescending, completely ignoring the response he got for his baseless statements. It's hard to believe that the guy than helped negotiate the ceasefire in Ukraine is the same guy doing this.
 
Red05 said:
I haven't read much about Doug Ford but when I read this:
“I can’t, for the life of me, figure out why this guy’s attacking his closest neighbors, allies and friend. A tariff on Canada is a tax on Americans" I totally sympathize with him. It boggles the mind. To make it even worse, Trump continues to babble incoherently about Canada joining the U.S. as a 51st state. It's horribly rude and condescending, completely ignoring the response he got for his baseless statements. It's hard to believe that the guy than helped negotiate the ceasefire in Ukraine is the same guy doing this.
Click to expand...
......and there isn't anyone out there except Trump's administration who can understand why he is doing these things.......

I found even in his former tenure of presidency that he didn't listen to any of his experts as he has the belief he's more knowledgeable than any of them.......

As tor the "peace deal" anyone who has studied this in any way see it as an Ukrainian conditional surrender.....Russia isn't making any concessions and the US is getting the rare earth mineral rights (and probably more) with Zelenskyy bowing to kiss the ring because if he didn't accept this, he would get no more aid or intelligence gathering from the US.....and the EU hung him out to dry...

I think we are going to witness the EU step up their game considerably over the next couple of years. As the US shrinks and becomes more irrelevant in the world stage, someone has to step it up, hopefully it's the EU and not the forming Chinese alliances....
 
Red05 said:
I haven't read much about Doug Ford but when I read this:
“I can’t, for the life of me, figure out why this guy’s attacking his closest neighbors, allies and friend. A tariff on Canada is a tax on Americans" I totally sympathize with him. It boggles the mind. To make it even worse, Trump continues to babble incoherently about Canada joining the U.S. as a 51st state. It's horribly rude and condescending, completely ignoring the response he got for his baseless statements. It's hard to believe that the guy than helped negotiate the ceasefire in Ukraine is the same guy doing this.
Click to expand...
I’m not joining the doom and gloom proponents yet, sitting on the fence being neutral right now.

In my business, we are shifting about 1.2 million in purchases from Canada, to Gastonia NC. There is not much we can do about imports from China, the effect is already a 2% price increase. From a personal income point of view, any additional costs we experience will actually make me more money, should we keep our margins the same. Will there be pressure to reduce margins, don’t know. Definitely will increase inflation.

Trump’s tariffs is a wild guess, I don’t necessarily believe all the experts with their crystal balls. This is wild experiment, the outcome will be based on human behavior which is unpredictable.

Bringing manufacturing back to the US is a good thing, something not a single Democrat is willing to pay for. Reducing our debt with income from tariffs is also a good thing, something no Democrat cares about, based on how our tax money was squandered by the previous Administration. This is unfortunately not a short term project, four years will not be enough to achieve Trump’s objectives. The consumer will pay for some of it.

For me, it is wait and see, at this stage not part of the doom and gloom club.
 
jellyrug said:
I’m not joining the doom and gloom proponents yet, sitting on the fence being neutral right now.

In my business, we are shifting about 1.2 million in purchases from Canada, to Gastonia NC. There is not much we can do about imports from China, the effect is already a 2% price increase. From a personal income point of view, any additional costs we experience will actually make me more money, should we keep our margins the same. Will there be pressure to reduce margins, don’t know. Definitely will increase inflation.

Trump’s tariffs is a wild guess, I don’t necessarily believe all the experts with their crystal balls. This is wild experiment, the outcome will be based on human behavior which is unpredictable.

Bringing manufacturing back to the US is a good thing, something not a single Democrat is willing to pay for. Reducing our debt with income from tariffs is also a good thing, something no Democrat cares about, based on how our tax money was squandered by the previous Administration. This is unfortunately not a short term project, four years will not be enough to achieve Trump’s objectives. The consumer will pay for some of it.

For me, it is wait and see, at this stage not part of the doom and gloom club.
Click to expand...
I could post and list a myriad of links to world renowned economists all saying these tariffs are not the way forward and will hurt not only the country they are imposed on but also the US......and none of them agree with them.......none......they can't all be wrong and Trump alone be right.....

The US is no longer an industrial powerhouse but even in it's heyday, the US needed more raw materials than it could produce internally and this is why trade was set up (but you already know this).

Trump himself ripped up the old NAFTA and created NAMSA of which he touted to being the best deal he has ever made........nothing has changed with that deal.

In a perfect world, more product would be made internal to a country....I like "Made in Canada" products and have always like "Made in USA" products and I remember cringing when I started seeing more "Made in China and Taiwan" products.......

But I firmly believe Canada and the US should be standing side by side, shoulder to shoulder and not be having this kind of crap happening......and this all falls on the shoulders of one man and one man alone.........a man who is quickly becoming a very, very unpopular man on a global scale never seen before........
 
Bumblebee said:
I could post and list a myriad of links to world renowned economists all saying these tariffs are not the way forward and will hurt not only the country they are imposed on but also the US......and none of them agree with them.......none......they can't all be wrong and Trump alone be right.....

The US is no longer an industrial powerhouse but even in it's heyday, the US needed more raw materials than it could produce internally and this is why trade was set up (but you already know this).

Trump himself ripped up the old NAFTA and created NAMSA of which he touted to being the best deal he has ever made........nothing has changed with that deal.

In a perfect world, more product would be made internal to a country....I like "Made in Canada" products and have always like "Made in USA" products and I remember cringing when I started seeing more "Made in China and Taiwan" products.......

But I firmly believe Canada and the US should be standing side by side, shoulder to shoulder and not be having this kind of crap happening......and this all falls on the shoulders of one man and one man alone.........a man who is quickly becoming a very, very unpopular man on a global scale never seen before........
Click to expand...
Respect your point of view, you may be right, you may be wrong.
Let’s wait and see, there is no doubt that this will hit the economy short term. We will really only know the real answers closer to the end of Trump’s term.

Anyone who tries to fix US debt, will be very unpopular, especially short term. It is something which has to be done though.

Successful business leaders often have to swim upstream, their common sense is often in contradiction with many, including world renowned experts. That is why they are successful. An “expert” is not something which excites me, after a long career where I had to untangle what many experts screwed up.

Goldman Sachs is normally the closest to being accurate with economic predictions. They are one of the main reasons we are seeing Wall Street dumping stocks right now, as a lot of institutional investors listen to them. If the end result of our Administration is to expectations, I believe the gloom Golden predicts is affordable in pain. Right now, all we see in the markets are fear and greed.
Again, respect your point of view, you may be right along with your world renowned experts. Wall Street may actually force Trump’s hand to turn around.

Again, I respect your point of view, you may be right, let’s wait and see.

I can understand that Canadians are upset, especially with the 51st state comment. Trump is a bull in a China shop, nothing we can do about that. When it comes to fair trade though, I probably have less sympathy than you, as I had to deal with Canada's trade practices for the last five years of my career. It was a pain.
 
jellyrug said:
Respect your point of view, you may be right, you may be wrong.
Let’s wait and see, there is no doubt that this will hit the economy short term. We will really only know the real answers closer to the end of Trump’s term.

Anyone who tries to fix US debt, will be very unpopular, especially short term. It is something which has to be done though.

Successful business leaders often have to swim upstream, their common sense is often in contradiction with many, including world renowned experts. That is why they are successful. An “expert” is not something which excites me, after a long career where I had to untangle what many experts screwed up.

Goldman Sachs is normally the closest to being accurate with economic predictions. They are one of the main reasons we are seeing Wall Street dumping stocks right now, as a lot of institutional investors listen to them. If the end result of our Administration is to expectations, I believe the gloom Golden predicts is affordable in pain. Right now, all we see in the markets are fear and greed.
Again, respect your point of view, you may be right along with your world renowned experts. Wall Street may actually force Trump’s hand to turn around.

Again, I respect your point of view, you may be right, let’s wait and see.

I can understand that Canadians are upset, especially with the 51st state comment. Trump is a bull in a China shop, nothing we can do about that. When it comes to fair trade though, I probably have less sympathy than you, as I had to deal with Canada's trade practices for the last five years of my career. It was a pain.
Click to expand...
jellyrug said:
^^^^^^
This may be hard to process for some, more inline with my thinking. If we had an Administration looking only at being famous for the next four years, not caring what lies beyond, there would be no tariffs.


And here is another view of one of your world renowned economists, however he is with a Red institution rather than blue.

Making Sense of the Trump Tariffs
Click to expand...
It all still comes down to the simple fact that the US needs more raw material than it can create....

This is one of the reasons Trump is talking about the annexation of Greenland and is trying hard to seal the deal with Ukraine so he can get his hands on whatever resources they have.......and why he is beating the drums on Canada.....

The US needs natural resources for manufacturing and it just doesn't have enough...

Placing tariffs on natural resources readily at hand in Canada (to some degree Mexico) makes zero sense to any economist out there of which I said I won't get into posting them all as it makes little sense to because you can go see for yourself......It's very easy to find narratives that meet the ideology of Trump......none of his loyalists would ever go against his policies however destructive they may be out of fear of retribution by a vengeful president....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are many world renowned economists out of the clutches of Trump who denounce the tariffs he's imposing and also denouncing this trade war he has started which will dramatically hurt the American economy and not just for the short term either...

Canada, Mexico, EU and China will all go trade elsewhere once we get our feet under us which will leave the US out in the cold which under this administration might prompt Trump to actually militarily invade to get what he needs.......if that ever happened, the path to oblivion would be set....

I personally would love to see far more "Made in Canada and USA" on things but destroying over a century of commerce isn't the way to go about this.....working together towards a common goal would be far more productive and economically sound (in my opinion).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In your current business of construction, it only makes sense to get ready made off the shelf items made in the US, the same as it is here......it makes little sense to buy flooring from American companies here in Canada when we already have companies producing them......but if this American company can provide the equivalent product less expensively, that's what is currently purchased...it's all about the dollar figure these days......now that the American product is artificially made more expensive through tariffs, it won't be purchased and if enough product isn't purchased, that business disappears...(but you know this so I'm not telling you anything new).

Of course I only know what I read......and a by a few lessons along the way by one of my former colleagues who is a financial wizard and another neighbor who owns a large construction company....neither of whom see tariffs as the way forward because the NAMSA deal Trump previously made was working quite well for North America.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
......and you are 100% correct.....Canadians are hurt and angry..........and so are a LOT of other people in many other nations....Trump is risking the reputation and trust of America in this venture.......sadly, he won't bear the brunt of this anger...American businesses and people will.
 
Bumblebee said:
It all still comes down to the simple fact that the US needs more raw material than it can create....

This is one of the reasons Trump is talking about the annexation of Greenland and is trying hard to seal the deal with Ukraine so he can get his hands on whatever resources they have.......and why he is beating the drums on Canada.....

The US needs natural resources for manufacturing and it just doesn't have enough...

Placing tariffs on natural resources readily at hand in Canada (to some degree Mexico) makes zero sense to any economist out there of which I said I won't get into posting them all as it makes little sense to because you can go see for yourself......It's very easy to find narratives that meet the ideology of Trump......none of his loyalists would ever go against his policies however destructive they may be out of fear of retribution by a vengeful president....
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are many world renowned economists out of the clutches of Trump who denounce the tariffs he's imposing and also denouncing this trade war he has started which will dramatically hurt the American economy and not just for the short term either...

Canada, Mexico, EU and China will all go trade elsewhere once we get our feet under us which will leave the US out in the cold which under this administration might prompt Trump to actually militarily invade to get what he needs.......if that ever happened, the path to oblivion would be set....

I personally would love to see far more "Made in Canada and USA" on things but destroying over a century of commerce isn't the way to go about this.....working together towards a common goal would be far more productive and economically sound (in my opinion).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In your current business of construction, it only makes sense to get ready made off the shelf items made in the US, the same as it is here......it makes little sense to buy flooring from American companies here in Canada when we already have companies producing them......but if this American company can provide the equivalent product less expensively, that's what is currently purchased...it's all about the dollar figure these days......now that the American product is artificially made more expensive through tariffs, it won't be purchased and if enough product isn't purchased, that business disappears...(but you know this so I'm not telling you anything new).

Of course I only know what I read......and a by a few lessons along the way by one of my former colleagues who is a financial wizard and another neighbor who owns a large construction company....neither of whom see tariffs as the way forward because the NAMSA deal Trump previously made was working quite well for North America.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
......and you are 100% correct.....Canadians are hurt and angry..........and so are a LOT of other people in many other nations....Trump is risking the reputation and trust of America in this venture.......sadly, he won't bear the brunt of this anger...American businesses and people will.
Click to expand...
At the end of the day, Trump promised massive tariffs on imports prior to him being elected as president. This was one of the major components of his campaign. Then he won the election, the American public voted for him.

Not going to be a smooth ride, as I mentioned a few times, you may be right. I am sitting on the fence, but hate me for it, I voted for him knowing this is what he was going to do.

Biden did not do much, but one thing he did, is keep Trump's tariffs on China and increased them further for certain goods.

This is going to hurt, no question about that. The question is whether the sacrifice will be worth it. Time will tell.

As mentioned, I will repeat, Trump is a bull in a China shop. It is what it is. What that means: "Someone who is careless and destructive when it comes to situations that require careful thought." This refers to your country as a 51st state and the Greenland issue. We know neither will happen, it is just blah.

The global supply chain is incredibly complex, it is impossible to untangle that. The car you drive has stuff in it coming from all over the world and if that is screwed up, there won't be adequate supply. When demand exceeds supply prices go North fast. On the other hand, you will see no American cars in Europe, partly because of tariffs. So let us all pray that sanity prevails and things work out in the end. The global supply chain will never change, but trade needs to be fair and managed to the advantage of each principal to a certain extent.

If I was a Canadian, I would also be p!ssed off, but I am an American.;)
 
jellyrug said:
^^^^^
BTW, Kevin O'Leary has a different opinion to yours. He is a fellow Canadian, no?
www.foxbusiness.com

Trump's potential resource deal with Canada is huge: Kevin O'Leary | Fox Business Video

O'Leary Ventures Chairman Kevin O'Leary analyzes President Donald Trump's tariff battle with Canada on 'Varney & Co.' #foxbusiness #varney
www.foxbusiness.com www.foxbusiness.com
Click to expand...
Kevin O'Leary has been touted as someone who may be born a Canadian but has differing views from most Canadian economists (and many global ones as well).

He is not a friend to Canada.

.....and I'm not saying I am the wealth of knowledge on this subject......I am just a vessel through which knowledge passes via reading and watching......and over the years of living, I have respect for those experts with such knowledge and not just the ones who provide favorable outcomes or viewpoints.......

When you have the top economists in our nations and the world express their negativity towards tariffs and their application in this circumstance, it makes me sit up and take notice....

Even the Wall Street Journal has expressed their disappointment in this trade war and the application of tariffs and they have their finger on the economic pulse.

Sooner or later Trump has to realize this is a bad idea but I believe he would rather ride the ship to the bottom of the ocean than admit he was wrong....

...........and there are a lot of Americans who are angry as well, some of which know they are going to lose their shirts.
 
Bumblebee said:
Sooner or later Trump has to realize this is a bad idea but I believe he would rather ride the ship to the bottom of the ocean than admit he was wrong....
Click to expand...
I'm still neutral on the results, as I think it can go both ways.

I believe Canada and the US have a great opportunity to start with a blank slate, abolish all trade barriers, join economic forces and can become a global powerhouse for the West versus the East.

Your country seems to be in a bit of a mess at the moment, you even have trade barriers between different provinces and you are suffering from a long lack of leadership. I really hope that changes.

As mentioned multiple times, you may be right along with your economists, I may be wrong, time will tell.

Let's keep the sentence I quoted alive, so I will be the first to admit you were correct when the ship lands on the bottom of the ocean, and I can plead innocent for being neutral when it does not.
 
Bumblebee said:
As tor the "peace deal" anyone who has studied this in any way see it as an Ukrainian conditional surrender...
Click to expand...
From my understanding, the proposed ceasefire is not a surrender in that it is temporary, with the possibility of being extended mutually. Putin hasn’t agreed to release annexed areas or agree with security guarantees for Ukraine. Essentially he hasn’t compromised at all nor has he yet accepted any agreement. The White House saying that the “ball is in their court” creates an awkward silence.
 
Red05 said:
From my understanding, the proposed ceasefire is not a surrender in that it is temporary, with the possibility of being extended mutually. Putin hasn’t agreed to release annexed areas or agree with security guarantees for Ukraine. Essentially he hasn’t compromised at all nor has he yet accepted any agreement. The White House saying that the “ball is in their court” creates an awkward silence.
Click to expand...
I would have been more inclined to agree if Ukraine wasn't strong armed into accepting this agreement or face having no military support or intel assets........it was sign or else....

That is a conditional surrender......

Now I see that Ukraine has signed their natural resources away so the shipments and intelligence gathering has started again.....

I read somewhere that Russia has reneged on 25 other ceasefire agreements....this is why Zelenskyy wanted some sort of security assurance but instead was overtly attacked by the current administration....
 
jellyrug said:
If we had an Administration looking only at being famous for the next four years, not caring what lies beyond, there would be no tariffs.
Click to expand...
One can also summarize that if an Administration values cooperation, a good rapport and a healthy trade relationship for the foreseeable future, there would be no tariffs.
 
Red05 said:
That what I expected Trump to offer but I haven’t seen the exact terms of the proposed agreement. You probably have batter access. It’s all moot anyway, pending Putin’s answer.
Click to expand...
Obviously I've never seen any agreement, I just know what I've read and interpretation of this.

A ceasefire and end to hostilities is always welcomed in any instance.......no matter the cost.
 
Bumblebee said:
I could post and list a myriad of links to world renowned economists all saying these tariffs are not the way forward and will hurt not only the country they are imposed on but also the US......and none of them agree with them.......none......they can't all be wrong and Trump alone be right.....

The US is no longer an industrial powerhouse but even in it's heyday, the US needed more raw materials than it could produce internally and this is why trade was set up (but you already know this).

Trump himself ripped up the old NAFTA and created NAMSA of which he touted to being the best deal he has ever made........nothing has changed with that deal.

In a perfect world, more product would be made internal to a country....I like "Made in Canada" products and have always like "Made in USA" products and I remember cringing when I started seeing more "Made in China and Taiwan" products.......

But I firmly believe Canada and the US should be standing side by side, shoulder to shoulder and not be having this kind of crap happening......and this all falls on the shoulders of one man and one man alone.........a man who is quickly becoming a very, very unpopular man on a global scale never seen before........
Click to expand...
So there are some nuances here that are relevant to this "partnership" that you elude to. Canada has had tariffs in place against many American products. And they are in place to protect Canadian interest. Take milk for example. It's currently set up to allow for American dairy imports up to a certain quota. Once that quota is met, heavy tariffs take effect to prevent U.S Dairy products from putting Canadian dairy products out of business. If Canada allowed for a free open market, the U.S. dairy industry could flood the Canadian market and put a world of hurt onto Canadian dairy farmers ability to survive. So the tariffs are there to protect your economic interest.

None of which I disagree with. I also do not agree with Trump just unilaterally applying tariffs on you. But you are saying you want a partnership. To which I agree. How do you maintain a partnership by denying that we could produce enough milk, more cheaply, but you don't want that? So you see, a partnership has to be mutual in benefits. You don't really want cheap milk. Because it hurts your own dairy industry. So why not just deny our dairy products completely? I'd suggest it's because it would raise your cost of milk to you. And you'd have a population squawking they would prefer cheaper American milk. So what your tarriffs do is use our cheaper milk to help bring down your consumer prices by combining it with your milk produced and keep your dairy industry from failing. That's a partnership. It's also essentially subsidizing your dairy industry, with cheaper American milk.

Canada has great resources we can use for manufacturing. Oil being one. We do most, if not all of your refining. You get refined oil to use, in exchange for us getting your oil to refine for our use as well. That's a partnership that benefits us both. And we are less reliant on importing from OPEC. I know you'd like to open up your pipelines and refine your own oil. That is a very hefty price tag to do that, and years to figure out how to. If doing that raised your price for refined oil products, how does that benefit you as a Canadian? Make it yourself to make it more expensive to yourself? Just to prove you don't like tariffs? I'd rather increase our refining capacity, you provide more oil and we both get cheaper energy cost to benefit from. We both win.
 
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