Portugal has been a friend of the US and the war, lets not forget that. Love the pres. and trust him. Great to have integrity back in the white house.
A flag, a war and a support
- Thread starter L4G4RT0
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L4G4RT0, its too bad you feel Bush is a liar and you feel he would deceive americans by entering into a war that costs americans over $100 billion when all the oil profits from Iraq for the next 100 years wouldnt recoup that money spent or the lives lost. I have a hard time understanding why people feel americans "start" wars for greed and deception when in reality America is really trying to "end" wars, same as bosnia, cosavo viet nam, WWII and every war the U.S. has been involved in on foreign territory, guess thats the price you have to pay for being Big Brother.
the majority of the people in Iraq welcome U.S. soldiers and are glad saddam is gone, they know just how bad things are over there first hand. they will pick up the peices and try to rebuild Iraq the best they can.
the people of the middle east represent the human race just as americans, aussies, africans, asians, and everyone else that lives in this world, we all live here together and we all need to help each other out, and eliminate the few that make this world a difficult and ugly place to live.
the flag is nice, it represents freedom, unity, and the United States... the best place to fly one is in your home. lets your neighbors know what your about.
hey cache, where did she get her looks?
the majority of the people in Iraq welcome U.S. soldiers and are glad saddam is gone, they know just how bad things are over there first hand. they will pick up the peices and try to rebuild Iraq the best they can.
the people of the middle east represent the human race just as americans, aussies, africans, asians, and everyone else that lives in this world, we all live here together and we all need to help each other out, and eliminate the few that make this world a difficult and ugly place to live.
the flag is nice, it represents freedom, unity, and the United States... the best place to fly one is in your home. lets your neighbors know what your about.
hey cache, where did she get her looks?
Hey Twisted.. Nice reply.. way more eloquent than what I had said....
Concur with all…
I guess the only thing I would add is this.. L4G4RT0 - you have to realize something…. You say you don’t believe in war, and that you don’t feel starting a war is a way to end terrorism..
I totally disagree… Let me give you an example… something I have always wanted to do sooooo bad just to prove a point, but I just cant pull myself to be a total arse
I have always wanted to go to a "peace rally" and pick the loudest mouth male there that is screaming about peace and non violence and how violence is not a way to end violence and punch him right in his face and knock him on the ground..
And if he gets back up and doesn’t do anything, knock his but on the ground again…
Eventually either he himself will fight back, OR someone standing by will jump on me and unless that start to knock the crap out of me, they will NOT be able to subdue me.
Point being is.. most people that SAY they are pacifists and that violence is not a solution to violence is just jumping on a band wagon.
IF you can tell me that someone could come up to you and knock the crap out of you and you would never fight back AND you can tell me you could stand by and watch someone beat your wife, mother or someone else you cared about to death and NEVER EVER raise a hand to stop them, then I might start to believe you truly believe that violence is not way to end violence. However I would only START to believe it. I would have to witness you actually go through something like that and see for myself that you would not raise a hand.
Would I call you a wimp? Weak? No.. I wouldn’t.. I would call you a person that had certain convictions and you stood by them. I would not look down upon you nor however would I think highly of you…
Sometimes you just have to fight.. It is the way we are built. We will never have a perfect society, there will always exist greed, people hungry for power, people that will do anything to obtain what they wish. They will crush whomever is in there way. It has been this way from the beginning of time and will be that way until the end of time..
And as long as people like that exist, there will always be a need to stop them, and someone who will do anything for power, usually can only be stopped by force.
For me.. I could never allow anyone to physically endanger my life or someone I cared about without doing something about it.
My family is my responsibility.. to protect.. with my life if needed.
Now with that said… most people that are against the war, and they scream and cry about stopping the violence… they only do so because it has not hit close enough to home for them.
Anyone who criticizes what we did in Iraq doesn’t really care about the Iraqi people, all they care about is perception of being a "good person" a "non violent" person. Or they are jumping on the band wagon.
I have seen interviews on T.V. with Iraqi's who left Iraq and they knew first hand what was going on. Those people are GLAD we did what we did. And now they are starting to feel like they can go home now…
Not too many people will argue the world is NOT a better place without the Saddam regime gone. So this tells me that what we did, everyone felt was needed, just we had the balls to do it…
So this means us going in was justified. Now we have the issue of why haven't we pulled out yet? We cant.. the job isn’t finished.. if we left now Iraq would turn into complete chaos and no one knows who would take over…
Sometimes… no matter how much you don’t want to…. Sometimes you just have to use force… You can feel bad about it, you don’t have to take pleasure in it… but sometimes you just have to do it.
<!--EDIT|thrasherfox
Reason for Edit: None given...|1074643701 -->
Concur with all…
I guess the only thing I would add is this.. L4G4RT0 - you have to realize something…. You say you don’t believe in war, and that you don’t feel starting a war is a way to end terrorism..
I totally disagree… Let me give you an example… something I have always wanted to do sooooo bad just to prove a point, but I just cant pull myself to be a total arse
I have always wanted to go to a "peace rally" and pick the loudest mouth male there that is screaming about peace and non violence and how violence is not a way to end violence and punch him right in his face and knock him on the ground..
And if he gets back up and doesn’t do anything, knock his but on the ground again…
Eventually either he himself will fight back, OR someone standing by will jump on me and unless that start to knock the crap out of me, they will NOT be able to subdue me.
Point being is.. most people that SAY they are pacifists and that violence is not a solution to violence is just jumping on a band wagon.
IF you can tell me that someone could come up to you and knock the crap out of you and you would never fight back AND you can tell me you could stand by and watch someone beat your wife, mother or someone else you cared about to death and NEVER EVER raise a hand to stop them, then I might start to believe you truly believe that violence is not way to end violence. However I would only START to believe it. I would have to witness you actually go through something like that and see for myself that you would not raise a hand.
Would I call you a wimp? Weak? No.. I wouldn’t.. I would call you a person that had certain convictions and you stood by them. I would not look down upon you nor however would I think highly of you…
Sometimes you just have to fight.. It is the way we are built. We will never have a perfect society, there will always exist greed, people hungry for power, people that will do anything to obtain what they wish. They will crush whomever is in there way. It has been this way from the beginning of time and will be that way until the end of time..
And as long as people like that exist, there will always be a need to stop them, and someone who will do anything for power, usually can only be stopped by force.
For me.. I could never allow anyone to physically endanger my life or someone I cared about without doing something about it.
My family is my responsibility.. to protect.. with my life if needed.
Now with that said… most people that are against the war, and they scream and cry about stopping the violence… they only do so because it has not hit close enough to home for them.
Anyone who criticizes what we did in Iraq doesn’t really care about the Iraqi people, all they care about is perception of being a "good person" a "non violent" person. Or they are jumping on the band wagon.
I have seen interviews on T.V. with Iraqi's who left Iraq and they knew first hand what was going on. Those people are GLAD we did what we did. And now they are starting to feel like they can go home now…
Not too many people will argue the world is NOT a better place without the Saddam regime gone. So this tells me that what we did, everyone felt was needed, just we had the balls to do it…
So this means us going in was justified. Now we have the issue of why haven't we pulled out yet? We cant.. the job isn’t finished.. if we left now Iraq would turn into complete chaos and no one knows who would take over…
Sometimes… no matter how much you don’t want to…. Sometimes you just have to use force… You can feel bad about it, you don’t have to take pleasure in it… but sometimes you just have to do it.
<!--EDIT|thrasherfox
Reason for Edit: None given...|1074643701 -->
busa1300nut
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Weather I beleive in war or not the cold hard fact is a great freind & co worker of 15 years left 5 days ago for Iraq. 101st airborn. He leaves behind, 3 kids,1 wife & lots of freinds. He told me he was just doing his job. Damn!
When the Captain put the flag up, the first thing I thought of was my freind Andy, would he make it home alive? I won,t know for 18 months. So all I can say about the American Flag when you sign on is respect it or stay the hell out! Thanks Captain 4 keepn it real!
When the Captain put the flag up, the first thing I thought of was my freind Andy, would he make it home alive? I won,t know for 18 months. So all I can say about the American Flag when you sign on is respect it or stay the hell out! Thanks Captain 4 keepn it real!
L4G4RT0
Registered
thrasherfox:
"You say you don’t believe in war" - i wrote "i don't agree with war, and war missions"
"For me.. I could never allow anyone to physically endanger my life or someone I cared about without doing something about it." - i wrote "i understand US position against countries that continously have an aggressive position towards them, although i don't consider war as a solution"
busa1300nut :
"all I can say about the American Flag when you sign on is respect it or stay the hell out" - read my previous post "how many times do I have to repeat that the issue is not the american flag!"
"its too bad you feel Bush is a liar" - ok, considering the possibility that he didn't do it on purpose, i'm still waiting for the weapons of mass destruction... the day he shows that weapons to the world will be the day i will bend and say "thanks God you went there". Believe me, I'm looking forward to do this, because it's being hard for me to even suspect that i was cheated on this particular item.
my country is an old european country. portugal was born in 1143, and as you can imagine there' a long history of war in here. The islam people from north africa were here during hundreds of years, we were occupied by spanish, we had the french napoleonic invasions, we participated in world war I with the allies and the last war we fought was out of our country too, in our ex-colonies, when they fought for their independence. Lately we've been out of war in terms of fighting, being much more a 2nd line support. some of the wars described were very long, and you can imagine that now we are mostly a peaceful nation... i'm glad we are like that...
and now i hope this issue rest in peace, since it's hard for me to show you that i have nothing against USA or the flag or the people... just thinking about some decisions token that might be arguable...
busa1300nut, i sincerely hope your friend comes home safe and healthy as all friends and relatives of all people around here and abroad there.
rgds,
L4G4RT0
"You say you don’t believe in war" - i wrote "i don't agree with war, and war missions"
"For me.. I could never allow anyone to physically endanger my life or someone I cared about without doing something about it." - i wrote "i understand US position against countries that continously have an aggressive position towards them, although i don't consider war as a solution"
busa1300nut :
"all I can say about the American Flag when you sign on is respect it or stay the hell out" - read my previous post "how many times do I have to repeat that the issue is not the american flag!"
"its too bad you feel Bush is a liar" - ok, considering the possibility that he didn't do it on purpose, i'm still waiting for the weapons of mass destruction... the day he shows that weapons to the world will be the day i will bend and say "thanks God you went there". Believe me, I'm looking forward to do this, because it's being hard for me to even suspect that i was cheated on this particular item.
my country is an old european country. portugal was born in 1143, and as you can imagine there' a long history of war in here. The islam people from north africa were here during hundreds of years, we were occupied by spanish, we had the french napoleonic invasions, we participated in world war I with the allies and the last war we fought was out of our country too, in our ex-colonies, when they fought for their independence. Lately we've been out of war in terms of fighting, being much more a 2nd line support. some of the wars described were very long, and you can imagine that now we are mostly a peaceful nation... i'm glad we are like that...
and now i hope this issue rest in peace, since it's hard for me to show you that i have nothing against USA or the flag or the people... just thinking about some decisions token that might be arguable...
busa1300nut, i sincerely hope your friend comes home safe and healthy as all friends and relatives of all people around here and abroad there.
rgds,
L4G4RT0
L4G4RTO - As far as weapons of Mass destruction go. Any single weapon that can cause severe loss of life in great numbers is considered a weapon of mass destruction
Now, with that pretty much clarified, the international community including the UN, knows Iraq HAD chemical weapons at one point, we know this because he used them. It is documented. The UN inspectors the first time around found these weapons, they also discovered approx. how much chemical agent was produced (at least there was a number they were sure of, could have been more)
Iraq could only account for a small portion of what the UN knew they had.
To make it simple:
(UN inspector talking to Iraqi official) We know you had 300 gallons of mustard gas, you told us before you had 300 gallons of mustard gas, you only used "xx" amount of gallons, this should leave you with 200 more gallons of mustard gas that your previously acknowledge you had. So where is the other 200 gallons
(Now the Iraqi official replies) Duhhhhh I don’t know.. whats up doc…
This was well know and covered before the war ever started, UN Inspectors all ways stated that there were un accounted for chemical agents.
Did you ever see the picture of the buried Iraqi fighter jet? We accidentally came across it, a compete fighter jet was buried in the Iraq desert to hide it for future use. If they can hide a fricken fighter jet and we almost didn’t find it. I assure you they can hide chemicals.
However I personally am guessing Iraq was able to get rid of all the chemical weapons before the war started. I am also guess that France, Germany, and Iraq's neighbors probably told Saddam that "if" he DID have any chemical weapons and he used them, it would turn the entire world against him. That him using chemical weapons would only invoke the wrath of the world, it was justify collation presence and the United States would then be justified to use our weapons of mass destruction. Even though we would not have needed to. We have conventional weapons like the daisy cutter that are just as lethal.
In other words, documents the UN has shows he had un accounted chemical weapons, just because he didn’t use them and we haven’t found any does not mean he didn’t have them and he wouldn’t have used them in the future. We kicked his arse so quickly they figured they would not have gained ANYTHING by using the weapons but they would have lost a great deal of support.
Anyway, I know you want to drop the subject, however due to your statement that you don’t believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction I felt a need to clarify some issues.
/R
Now, with that pretty much clarified, the international community including the UN, knows Iraq HAD chemical weapons at one point, we know this because he used them. It is documented. The UN inspectors the first time around found these weapons, they also discovered approx. how much chemical agent was produced (at least there was a number they were sure of, could have been more)
Iraq could only account for a small portion of what the UN knew they had.
To make it simple:
(UN inspector talking to Iraqi official) We know you had 300 gallons of mustard gas, you told us before you had 300 gallons of mustard gas, you only used "xx" amount of gallons, this should leave you with 200 more gallons of mustard gas that your previously acknowledge you had. So where is the other 200 gallons
(Now the Iraqi official replies) Duhhhhh I don’t know.. whats up doc…
This was well know and covered before the war ever started, UN Inspectors all ways stated that there were un accounted for chemical agents.
Did you ever see the picture of the buried Iraqi fighter jet? We accidentally came across it, a compete fighter jet was buried in the Iraq desert to hide it for future use. If they can hide a fricken fighter jet and we almost didn’t find it. I assure you they can hide chemicals.
However I personally am guessing Iraq was able to get rid of all the chemical weapons before the war started. I am also guess that France, Germany, and Iraq's neighbors probably told Saddam that "if" he DID have any chemical weapons and he used them, it would turn the entire world against him. That him using chemical weapons would only invoke the wrath of the world, it was justify collation presence and the United States would then be justified to use our weapons of mass destruction. Even though we would not have needed to. We have conventional weapons like the daisy cutter that are just as lethal.
In other words, documents the UN has shows he had un accounted chemical weapons, just because he didn’t use them and we haven’t found any does not mean he didn’t have them and he wouldn’t have used them in the future. We kicked his arse so quickly they figured they would not have gained ANYTHING by using the weapons but they would have lost a great deal of support.
Anyway, I know you want to drop the subject, however due to your statement that you don’t believe Iraq had weapons of mass destruction I felt a need to clarify some issues.
/R
Lots of reading in this thread.
Just want to make a few simple points.
<ul>WMD (Weapon of Mass Destruction): Everybody keeps thinking about explosives and toxic gases. Think about this: The pilots that flew the planes into the World Trade Center towers were pretty good WMD...and yes, I know they were Al Queda, and not Iraqi. The suicide bombers are doing good fuggin job of killing masses of people too[/list]
<ul>America's greed for starting wars: During every war/conflict the USA has ever been in, they have not once taken posession of any other country's land and claimed it as their own. We have still not been paid restitution for our services in helping to liberate europe from Hitler's era. The French who denounced support for the USA, has thousands of Americans buried within the soil of their country. The only land the USA ever asked for, is enough land to bury our dead.[/list]
In my opinion, if we were really that greedy, then why didn't we just go over to Iraq and take over their country, and claim it as our own. The whole country is about the size of California, so I'm pretty sure that we could accomplish the task easily. The hardest part of what we're doing now, is that the USA ONLY wants to effect a regime change, and then help to rebuild a new one. The USA has enough firepower and personnel to demolish Iraq, but insteas we chose to only remove people, and not entire cities. Yes, there was collateral damage, which is inevitable, but we did leave most everything standing.
I personally think we should have just taken over the country. At least then, we could supply our own crude oil for refinement, and then sell the rest to the other Arab nations.
Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
Just want to make a few simple points.
<ul>WMD (Weapon of Mass Destruction): Everybody keeps thinking about explosives and toxic gases. Think about this: The pilots that flew the planes into the World Trade Center towers were pretty good WMD...and yes, I know they were Al Queda, and not Iraqi. The suicide bombers are doing good fuggin job of killing masses of people too[/list]
<ul>America's greed for starting wars: During every war/conflict the USA has ever been in, they have not once taken posession of any other country's land and claimed it as their own. We have still not been paid restitution for our services in helping to liberate europe from Hitler's era. The French who denounced support for the USA, has thousands of Americans buried within the soil of their country. The only land the USA ever asked for, is enough land to bury our dead.[/list]
In my opinion, if we were really that greedy, then why didn't we just go over to Iraq and take over their country, and claim it as our own. The whole country is about the size of California, so I'm pretty sure that we could accomplish the task easily. The hardest part of what we're doing now, is that the USA ONLY wants to effect a regime change, and then help to rebuild a new one. The USA has enough firepower and personnel to demolish Iraq, but insteas we chose to only remove people, and not entire cities. Yes, there was collateral damage, which is inevitable, but we did leave most everything standing.
I personally think we should have just taken over the country. At least then, we could supply our own crude oil for refinement, and then sell the rest to the other Arab nations.
Just my opinion, for what it's worth.
funny you brought this up..... SORRY FOR THE THREAD HIJACKING!!!!)....Hey Cache!! when is your daughter getting her OWN Busa?
My son asked me at what age can he get one... I looked him and said... "maybe when you are 25, I want you to start off with something a little smaller first" he is 11 right now.. lol he's my little buddy,, brings tears to my eyes
My daughter is 10 next week.
intro - I am a drag racer. every weekend during the regular season, I race. 90% of the time, my daughter goes with. She has a BLAST!
anyway, she fell in love with the Jr. Dragsters..... she wants one.
Of course, she wants a pit bike too.. most guys have a scooter, or an old dirt bike for a pit bike.
kids.! hah!
she's gettin somethin this year before the season starts........
better to get her started soon, than too late!
thanks for bringing that up!!!
cache.
†Wç†ëD
Registered
Fox, your replies are just fine and point well taken
L4G, dont get me wrong I am not trying to stir the pot or anything just looking for a little clarification, perhaps we did misunderstand what you were trying to say?
you said "I just want to communicate that I truly dislike the flag saying "Hayabusa.org supporting our troops and their mission". "
but you did not lend any support to your statement other than you dont feel at home anymore and you thought the war was unjust? what exactly is it your uncomfortable with about the flag being on this website? is it the flag as a symbol of the U.S. or because it says hayabusa.org on it? there must be something we are missing?
something else I found odd in your post, you said " but I have to disagree with the economical advantages that you guys take of that "self defense"... You don't have to reconstruct Iraq."
is it the consensus of your country there is some kind of economical advantage being in a war overseas with Iraq? if you could clue us in on the wherabouts of this advantage it would really help. so far this war has cost the U.S. over 100 billion dollars and its not over, since the country of Iraq is basically broke, neither them, the U.N. or any other country has offered to reimburse us for the cost of this war, much less any sort of profit margin. at peak production and prices Iraq can sell about $2 billion worth of oil a year, at that rate it would take iraq 50 years to pay us back and the U.S. would have spent another 200-300 billion rebuilding Iraq.
this war(self defense) has actually had an economical disadvantage on america. since 911 the U.S. has been suffering from a recession(loss of jobs and economic downfall) the money being spent on this war would have been better spent on small business loans, student loans and various other ways stimulating our economy, putting americans back to work. the war isnt over and the receeding economy has gone unchecked, so you can hardley call this war an economical advantage for the U.S.
a retraction would be an acceptable form of saying you have been misguided...
L4G, dont get me wrong I am not trying to stir the pot or anything just looking for a little clarification, perhaps we did misunderstand what you were trying to say?
you said "I just want to communicate that I truly dislike the flag saying "Hayabusa.org supporting our troops and their mission". "
but you did not lend any support to your statement other than you dont feel at home anymore and you thought the war was unjust? what exactly is it your uncomfortable with about the flag being on this website? is it the flag as a symbol of the U.S. or because it says hayabusa.org on it? there must be something we are missing?
something else I found odd in your post, you said " but I have to disagree with the economical advantages that you guys take of that "self defense"... You don't have to reconstruct Iraq."
is it the consensus of your country there is some kind of economical advantage being in a war overseas with Iraq? if you could clue us in on the wherabouts of this advantage it would really help. so far this war has cost the U.S. over 100 billion dollars and its not over, since the country of Iraq is basically broke, neither them, the U.N. or any other country has offered to reimburse us for the cost of this war, much less any sort of profit margin. at peak production and prices Iraq can sell about $2 billion worth of oil a year, at that rate it would take iraq 50 years to pay us back and the U.S. would have spent another 200-300 billion rebuilding Iraq.
this war(self defense) has actually had an economical disadvantage on america. since 911 the U.S. has been suffering from a recession(loss of jobs and economic downfall) the money being spent on this war would have been better spent on small business loans, student loans and various other ways stimulating our economy, putting americans back to work. the war isnt over and the receeding economy has gone unchecked, so you can hardley call this war an economical advantage for the U.S.
a retraction would be an acceptable form of saying you have been misguided...
L4G4RT0
Registered
Didn't want to keep this topic alive, but yes, once again i will tell you that it's the BANNER, not the flag. The "mission" thing includes some issues i don't agree with (nothing to do with hayabusa.org, only with the situation on Iraq).
All other discussion about economical stuff, weapons of mass destruction, the reasons beneath the war itself is useless since everybody here seems to know much more than i do... and YES, maybe the mass media in Europe are telling a different story, or maybe I pay more attention to things that you don't...
I ask myself if you know the different versions of history that always run in parallel with the truth... and with this, I'm not saying that I'm right and you are wrong, just oppening my eyes to all possibilities.
regards,
All other discussion about economical stuff, weapons of mass destruction, the reasons beneath the war itself is useless since everybody here seems to know much more than i do... and YES, maybe the mass media in Europe are telling a different story, or maybe I pay more attention to things that you don't...
I ask myself if you know the different versions of history that always run in parallel with the truth... and with this, I'm not saying that I'm right and you are wrong, just oppening my eyes to all possibilities.
regards,
†Wç†ëD
Registered
so you just dont agree the word "mission" should be associated with the website? mission in this context means "a body of persons sent to perform a service or carry on an activity" nothing more nothing less? I take it you disagree with "what their mission is" if you set aside all the media, politicol and activist spin and controversy, I think you will see U.S. troops are on a mission to remove a brutal dictatorship and destroy as many terrorists and their organizations as possible and set Iraqies free. their mission will probably be remaining in Iraq untill some sort of stability is restored to the region as well.
"I ask myself if you know the different versions of history that always run in parallel with the truth"
truth is, america has a long history of spending enormous amounts of money and losing soldeirs trying to help others in dier situations, and have received nothing but hatred from other countries and an enourmous deficit in return, americas deficit is something in the hood of 7,013,695,891,005.29 and has been increasing at the rate of 2 billion dollars a day since 911? much of this deficit is due to wars like WWI&II, Viet Nam, cosavo, Dessert Storm, Bosnia, and so on. none of which the U.S. was offered one dollar in return.
so the truth is many many americans have unselfishly sacrificed their lives in an effort to help others in need while fighting for freedom, soldiers that had wives and children at home that will never see their loved one alive again. soldiers are in Iraq today doing the same. I'm not sure if you have had anyone close to you die in a war fighting for freedom, but one thing is for sure, all the money in the world cannot bring back a husband, wife, father, mother, daughter or son that have been killed in a war, so you must see this war is about much more than the notion of money, and we americans know more about that than anyone else on this planet.
I hope you can see the flag not only supports the mission of soldiers today, but the soldiers of the past as well, and all they have unselfishly fought and died for. if you can cut through all the B.S. I am sure you will see a clear picture of what this war is really about, what is gained, and what is lost....
"I ask myself if you know the different versions of history that always run in parallel with the truth"
truth is, america has a long history of spending enormous amounts of money and losing soldeirs trying to help others in dier situations, and have received nothing but hatred from other countries and an enourmous deficit in return, americas deficit is something in the hood of 7,013,695,891,005.29 and has been increasing at the rate of 2 billion dollars a day since 911? much of this deficit is due to wars like WWI&II, Viet Nam, cosavo, Dessert Storm, Bosnia, and so on. none of which the U.S. was offered one dollar in return.
so the truth is many many americans have unselfishly sacrificed their lives in an effort to help others in need while fighting for freedom, soldiers that had wives and children at home that will never see their loved one alive again. soldiers are in Iraq today doing the same. I'm not sure if you have had anyone close to you die in a war fighting for freedom, but one thing is for sure, all the money in the world cannot bring back a husband, wife, father, mother, daughter or son that have been killed in a war, so you must see this war is about much more than the notion of money, and we americans know more about that than anyone else on this planet.
I hope you can see the flag not only supports the mission of soldiers today, but the soldiers of the past as well, and all they have unselfishly fought and died for. if you can cut through all the B.S. I am sure you will see a clear picture of what this war is really about, what is gained, and what is lost....
L4G4RT0
Registered
I see lots of innocent people being killed, and when I say innocent, I can say troops too.
I have to agree that it's a noble thing to return democracy to a country like Iraq and that is also a great thing to catch terrorists, but I have to keep my eyes opened... I don't believe that a war started just to free Iraqi's people... That's the biggest BS of all. We can keep this discussion alive for hundreds of lines, but somethings you don't know, something I don't know, reasons for war are always arguable, noble wars have happened since man existed, the Inquisition itself was a noble cause and now no one agrees with... and so on and so on...
To cut this subject once for all (believe me that if I was an english native speaker it would be much easier for me to express myself), the banner will stay, and heck, you and everyone here has to accept that some people might not be confortable with a message that has a war implicit in it. Sorry about that, but it's my opinion.
Now i will quote Revlis "Well Look at it like this L4G4RT0. The company you work for probably supports certain political parties or points of view you dislike, you may have a manager or a team lead that has viewpoints you disagree with. Your country probably makes decisions you do not like, and I am sure that your President Jorge Sampaio does and says things you may not like. Does this mean that you start looking for a new job, Country, or President? No, and do the words across the Bottom of the US Flag mean you have to quit coming around here just because you disagree with the words? No."
Hope you can understand this. I'm not uncomfortable with you guys, I can live with that banner and I hope you can live with my presence here, since in the end, believe me, I'm a very nice guy.
One thing for sure: i'll keep my mouth shut next time I have to disagree with a topic not related with the Busa
don't want any bad feelings here.
peace
I have to agree that it's a noble thing to return democracy to a country like Iraq and that is also a great thing to catch terrorists, but I have to keep my eyes opened... I don't believe that a war started just to free Iraqi's people... That's the biggest BS of all. We can keep this discussion alive for hundreds of lines, but somethings you don't know, something I don't know, reasons for war are always arguable, noble wars have happened since man existed, the Inquisition itself was a noble cause and now no one agrees with... and so on and so on...
To cut this subject once for all (believe me that if I was an english native speaker it would be much easier for me to express myself), the banner will stay, and heck, you and everyone here has to accept that some people might not be confortable with a message that has a war implicit in it. Sorry about that, but it's my opinion.
Now i will quote Revlis "Well Look at it like this L4G4RT0. The company you work for probably supports certain political parties or points of view you dislike, you may have a manager or a team lead that has viewpoints you disagree with. Your country probably makes decisions you do not like, and I am sure that your President Jorge Sampaio does and says things you may not like. Does this mean that you start looking for a new job, Country, or President? No, and do the words across the Bottom of the US Flag mean you have to quit coming around here just because you disagree with the words? No."
Hope you can understand this. I'm not uncomfortable with you guys, I can live with that banner and I hope you can live with my presence here, since in the end, believe me, I'm a very nice guy.
One thing for sure: i'll keep my mouth shut next time I have to disagree with a topic not related with the Busa
peace
L4G4RTO - Something you have to understand.. and if you have never been to the United States... it is difficult to grasp. The reason you are experiencing so much flack is because there is a lot of patriotism here..
It seems like there a lot of folks on this board that the serve our country or are close to someone that serves our country.. active military, retired military, local law enforcement, firemen and women, search and rescue, etc…
Please don’t take offense to our defense, but as I said unless you have ever lived in the United States - it is difficult to understand the camaraderie, the bonding..
Unlike other countries, and not always, but for the most part in the United states, we are not whites, we are not blacks we are not Hispanic, jews, muslims, Chinese, Japanese hindu or any other group that live here. We are Americans, and being American means we have total freedom to be who we want to be.
This attitude and this freedom really shows when we are backed into a corner, it is like a police officers worse nightmare, family dispute.. a police officer can be called to a family dispute and find a man beating the crap out of a woman, or a woman beating the crap out of a man, but once the police get involved, they will join together and attack the police.
The United States is pretty much the same way, we might have all our little and big squabbles like family's do, but when push comes to shove, we are a family, we are Americans and in the worse of times is when we bond together.
And contrary to popular belief in the rest of the fricken world, I can tell you from experience.. I served 10 years in the United States Marine Corp, my uncle was a Marine chopper pilot in Vietnam, and he also flew Marine One for president Nixon, my other uncle who passed away served as a Marine, my step dad was in the Army, my dead grandfather is a retired Army officer.
I now have worked for the Department of Defense for over 6 years as a civilian which gives me a total of 16 years of service to my country. In my current job I work with military pilots and other warriors.
Most of my close friends either work in local law enforcement, or federal law enforcement. I also have friends that work at high levels for the district attorney's office.
This might sound like bragging or something, but I am trying to make a point. And that point being is I have been involved in the service of my country for many years and I know lots of people that serve out country in one way or another.
Everyone I know does it because they love this country, when my friends go over to Iraq or to Afghanistan, I can personally tell you, in their heart their mission is to free people, to save people and help people that are at a disadvantage, and / or to protect our own country. The people I know and work with on a daily basis are selfless people who do what they do to help others.
In the majority of people in the united states, for some reason or another when push comes to shove, we always try to help the underdog.
This is my perspective, and I know that many people on this board that are in similar service, or have close friends or family that are in similar service, they probably feel pretty much the same way, in our hearts it is about helping others..
I think the current situation with BT and his family and his niece is a prime example of how Americans pull together. Most of us honestly and generally care for everyone, even if we dont know them personally
However this caring that we have, this generosity, and this forgiveness should never be mistaken for weakness, because we are quick to defend ourselves and even quicker to defend others. This is what it is to be American, this is the bond of Americans, and this is what makes us all a family.
So when you say anything about having problems with a "banner" or a banner showing support for our troops. This is why you might sense hostility… this is our bond.. we are a family and we stick up for each other as such…
And when you or anyone else say that we go to war because of money or other financial gains, we take offense, because the United States has never profited from any war, we have never acquired land (excpet enough to burry our fallen soldiers on foreign soil), we have never acquired riches. We have gone to war, shed our blood on foreign soil and when the job was done, we left.. never asking for thanks and often never getting it… never asking for compensation of any kind, and it has never been offered.
We serve from our hearts… we asking nothing in return……
We are the United States, we are a super power... when any country in the world is in need, no matter who there are, we are often the first ones they call for help... But yet for some reason we are always condemend for being war mongers, greedy...and searching for power and riches....
It gets old to keep helping people out then getting punched in the face for it.. over and over and over.... But God willing we will allways pursue what is right and no matter how many times we get kicked in the teeth, we will continue to help the underdog.
<!--EDIT|thrasherfox
Reason for Edit: None given...|1074962860 -->
It seems like there a lot of folks on this board that the serve our country or are close to someone that serves our country.. active military, retired military, local law enforcement, firemen and women, search and rescue, etc…
Please don’t take offense to our defense, but as I said unless you have ever lived in the United States - it is difficult to understand the camaraderie, the bonding..
Unlike other countries, and not always, but for the most part in the United states, we are not whites, we are not blacks we are not Hispanic, jews, muslims, Chinese, Japanese hindu or any other group that live here. We are Americans, and being American means we have total freedom to be who we want to be.
This attitude and this freedom really shows when we are backed into a corner, it is like a police officers worse nightmare, family dispute.. a police officer can be called to a family dispute and find a man beating the crap out of a woman, or a woman beating the crap out of a man, but once the police get involved, they will join together and attack the police.
The United States is pretty much the same way, we might have all our little and big squabbles like family's do, but when push comes to shove, we are a family, we are Americans and in the worse of times is when we bond together.
And contrary to popular belief in the rest of the fricken world, I can tell you from experience.. I served 10 years in the United States Marine Corp, my uncle was a Marine chopper pilot in Vietnam, and he also flew Marine One for president Nixon, my other uncle who passed away served as a Marine, my step dad was in the Army, my dead grandfather is a retired Army officer.
I now have worked for the Department of Defense for over 6 years as a civilian which gives me a total of 16 years of service to my country. In my current job I work with military pilots and other warriors.
Most of my close friends either work in local law enforcement, or federal law enforcement. I also have friends that work at high levels for the district attorney's office.
This might sound like bragging or something, but I am trying to make a point. And that point being is I have been involved in the service of my country for many years and I know lots of people that serve out country in one way or another.
Everyone I know does it because they love this country, when my friends go over to Iraq or to Afghanistan, I can personally tell you, in their heart their mission is to free people, to save people and help people that are at a disadvantage, and / or to protect our own country. The people I know and work with on a daily basis are selfless people who do what they do to help others.
In the majority of people in the united states, for some reason or another when push comes to shove, we always try to help the underdog.
This is my perspective, and I know that many people on this board that are in similar service, or have close friends or family that are in similar service, they probably feel pretty much the same way, in our hearts it is about helping others..
I think the current situation with BT and his family and his niece is a prime example of how Americans pull together. Most of us honestly and generally care for everyone, even if we dont know them personally
However this caring that we have, this generosity, and this forgiveness should never be mistaken for weakness, because we are quick to defend ourselves and even quicker to defend others. This is what it is to be American, this is the bond of Americans, and this is what makes us all a family.
So when you say anything about having problems with a "banner" or a banner showing support for our troops. This is why you might sense hostility… this is our bond.. we are a family and we stick up for each other as such…
And when you or anyone else say that we go to war because of money or other financial gains, we take offense, because the United States has never profited from any war, we have never acquired land (excpet enough to burry our fallen soldiers on foreign soil), we have never acquired riches. We have gone to war, shed our blood on foreign soil and when the job was done, we left.. never asking for thanks and often never getting it… never asking for compensation of any kind, and it has never been offered.
We serve from our hearts… we asking nothing in return……
We are the United States, we are a super power... when any country in the world is in need, no matter who there are, we are often the first ones they call for help... But yet for some reason we are always condemend for being war mongers, greedy...and searching for power and riches....
It gets old to keep helping people out then getting punched in the face for it.. over and over and over.... But God willing we will allways pursue what is right and no matter how many times we get kicked in the teeth, we will continue to help the underdog.
<!--EDIT|thrasherfox
Reason for Edit: None given...|1074962860 -->
†Wç†ëD
Registered
now you really have peaked my curiosity?
if you don not beleive this war began as the result of a dictator that ruled with tyranny, murder and OPRESSION violated U.N. security resolutions and "cease fire agreements" from the gulf war and those violations ultimately led to the invasion of Iraq. a U.S. military invasion that will eventually free Iraq, what exactly did start this war?
Well said Thrasherfox.
I chose not to reply yesterday because I probably would have perpetuated the vicious cycle and caused someone some emotional pain. I chose to try and be peacefull and respect their opinion, although I don't agree with it.
I'll just have to let this one go, or I'll just get fired up again, day after day.
I chose not to reply yesterday because I probably would have perpetuated the vicious cycle and caused someone some emotional pain. I chose to try and be peacefull and respect their opinion, although I don't agree with it.
I'll just have to let this one go, or I'll just get fired up again, day after day.
I apologize if I babble. This is a topic I feel very strongly about.
L4G,
I read your INITIAL POST, and could not believe you would actual suggest that the banner or whatever you think it should be called be removed because it is offensive. Tell me your kidding. I guess by reading all the responses to your initial post you can see that the majority of Americans are very concerned and protective of our flag and the people who defend it. You obviously did not think before you typed the nonsense in your first post. I am a Veteran of the United States Military, and am currently still in the Reserves. I am scheduled to deploy AGAIN in September. I think it is very patriotic and respectful that we think of our troops even when we are on the web site of the fastest motorcycle.
(figured I would throw that in)
I think that it is very difficult for people to look at this situation from the outside. I was active duty in the 90's. I was deployed overseas more then I was home. I seen first hand how the citizens in these third world countries live. It is not a good sight in most cases. After seeing how these people live, you would understand why the military is there. The majority of the local people in these countries, are more then happy to see you and try their hardest to thank you for coming and trying to help them. I did my time there and came home. When I returned home, I remember turning on the news and seeing some protestors in Washington D.C. I remember saying to myself, I wish they could only see what was really going on.
About five years later:
I was one of the rescue workers that was able to go to the World Trade Center after the attack on 9/11. I went with a good friend of mine. We were on the remains of the Center hour after hour. We did not take breaks, we worked till we couldnt go anymore. While at the site you could see the might of the American people. Eveyone working together for a common goal. Fortunately we were able to save 5 lives the day I was there. Unfortunately there were several innocent lives that were lost.
About 2 months later, I was contacted by my reserve unit who advised me that I was being activated and to report to the base. I said goodbye to my Wife and my civilian job and told them that I did not know when I would return. Six months later I returned home from Afganistan. A different person? Sure.
Again protestors! Why? I cant imagine. Most of the protestors were College kids who have never even left Mom but have the odasity to protest. Dont they think of all that has happened?Are they brain dead? Or are they listening to all the jackass Hollywood So Called Stars who have never had to work for anything in their lives and take for granted that they can be actors and actresses while our US Soldiers are dying. Or maybe they are listening to someone else via email from another country who knocks the war and wonders why the Citizens of the United States wants to show support for the people who are fighting for our freedom.Guess some of us will never understand. If you have a feeling and you want to express it be a man and stick behind it. Dont punk out on it when everyone puts the pressure on you!!!!!!!!!
Through it all, I am proud for what I have done. I am also proud for the service of all the Military Members and their families who have served in the past and are currently serving. God Bless and God Speed! Thanks to all for your service. And for those who have never been in the military, stay supportive it means a lot to the troops, Thanks
<span style='color:blue'>The flag of the United States of America is known as
the “Stars and Stripes.” There is a strong
symbolism
connected to each area of the U.S. flag.
The “union” area consists of white stars on a blue
field, symbolic of a new constellation. Each star
represents one of the 50 states, and together they
stand united, indivisible. The red and white
stripes
represent the original 13 colonies that declared
their
independence from Great Britain in 1776. Red stands
for the blood of those who have given their lives to
protect and defend this great nation from all of her
enemies, foreign and domestic. White represents
purity, innocence, and hope. Blue is for vigilance,
perseverance, and justice.
In our hearts the “Stars and Stripes” stands for
many
things, as set down in the Declaration of
Independence, where it states that all men are
created
equal, with rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit
of happiness. These rights include that of the
people
to alter or abolish any form of government that
becomes destructive or repressive.
Our flag stands for the Constitution of the United
States of America – for freedom of religion, freedom
of the press, freedom of speech.
It symbolizes security for all U.S. citizens, and
provides for a fair and swift trial – justice for
all.
It stands for the abolishment of slavery, and it
gives each individual of age the right to
participate
in our voting process, to have a say in his or her
future.
Our flag is a beacon recognized throughout the world
to represent freedom during times of peace. And
during times of war.
The freedom our flag represents is what we live for.
This is what we fight for. And, if necessary, this
is
what we would die for in its defense. The charge
that
we accept as soldiers, sailors, and airmen is a
noble
one, for there is no heart stronger than that of a
volunteer.
Let us pray that God will reflect with admiration on
the willingness of one nation to attempt to rid the
world of tyranny, oppression, and misery.
It is this one nation under God that we call with
honor “The United States of America.”
God bless our flag. God bless America.</span>
L4G,
I read your INITIAL POST, and could not believe you would actual suggest that the banner or whatever you think it should be called be removed because it is offensive. Tell me your kidding. I guess by reading all the responses to your initial post you can see that the majority of Americans are very concerned and protective of our flag and the people who defend it. You obviously did not think before you typed the nonsense in your first post. I am a Veteran of the United States Military, and am currently still in the Reserves. I am scheduled to deploy AGAIN in September. I think it is very patriotic and respectful that we think of our troops even when we are on the web site of the fastest motorcycle.
(figured I would throw that in)
I think that it is very difficult for people to look at this situation from the outside. I was active duty in the 90's. I was deployed overseas more then I was home. I seen first hand how the citizens in these third world countries live. It is not a good sight in most cases. After seeing how these people live, you would understand why the military is there. The majority of the local people in these countries, are more then happy to see you and try their hardest to thank you for coming and trying to help them. I did my time there and came home. When I returned home, I remember turning on the news and seeing some protestors in Washington D.C. I remember saying to myself, I wish they could only see what was really going on.
About five years later:
I was one of the rescue workers that was able to go to the World Trade Center after the attack on 9/11. I went with a good friend of mine. We were on the remains of the Center hour after hour. We did not take breaks, we worked till we couldnt go anymore. While at the site you could see the might of the American people. Eveyone working together for a common goal. Fortunately we were able to save 5 lives the day I was there. Unfortunately there were several innocent lives that were lost.
About 2 months later, I was contacted by my reserve unit who advised me that I was being activated and to report to the base. I said goodbye to my Wife and my civilian job and told them that I did not know when I would return. Six months later I returned home from Afganistan. A different person? Sure.
Again protestors! Why? I cant imagine. Most of the protestors were College kids who have never even left Mom but have the odasity to protest. Dont they think of all that has happened?Are they brain dead? Or are they listening to all the jackass Hollywood So Called Stars who have never had to work for anything in their lives and take for granted that they can be actors and actresses while our US Soldiers are dying. Or maybe they are listening to someone else via email from another country who knocks the war and wonders why the Citizens of the United States wants to show support for the people who are fighting for our freedom.Guess some of us will never understand. If you have a feeling and you want to express it be a man and stick behind it. Dont punk out on it when everyone puts the pressure on you!!!!!!!!!
Through it all, I am proud for what I have done. I am also proud for the service of all the Military Members and their families who have served in the past and are currently serving. God Bless and God Speed! Thanks to all for your service. And for those who have never been in the military, stay supportive it means a lot to the troops, Thanks
<span style='color:blue'>The flag of the United States of America is known as
the “Stars and Stripes.” There is a strong
symbolism
connected to each area of the U.S. flag.
The “union” area consists of white stars on a blue
field, symbolic of a new constellation. Each star
represents one of the 50 states, and together they
stand united, indivisible. The red and white
stripes
represent the original 13 colonies that declared
their
independence from Great Britain in 1776. Red stands
for the blood of those who have given their lives to
protect and defend this great nation from all of her
enemies, foreign and domestic. White represents
purity, innocence, and hope. Blue is for vigilance,
perseverance, and justice.
In our hearts the “Stars and Stripes” stands for
many
things, as set down in the Declaration of
Independence, where it states that all men are
created
equal, with rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit
of happiness. These rights include that of the
people
to alter or abolish any form of government that
becomes destructive or repressive.
Our flag stands for the Constitution of the United
States of America – for freedom of religion, freedom
of the press, freedom of speech.
It symbolizes security for all U.S. citizens, and
provides for a fair and swift trial – justice for
all.
It stands for the abolishment of slavery, and it
gives each individual of age the right to
participate
in our voting process, to have a say in his or her
future.
Our flag is a beacon recognized throughout the world
to represent freedom during times of peace. And
during times of war.
The freedom our flag represents is what we live for.
This is what we fight for. And, if necessary, this
is
what we would die for in its defense. The charge
that
we accept as soldiers, sailors, and airmen is a
noble
one, for there is no heart stronger than that of a
volunteer.
Let us pray that God will reflect with admiration on
the willingness of one nation to attempt to rid the
world of tyranny, oppression, and misery.
It is this one nation under God that we call with
honor “The United States of America.”
God bless our flag. God bless America.</span>
bigpig13 - Thanks for that.. and thanks for your service.....
L4G4RT0
Registered
Thrasherfox: we have patriotism here too. How do you think a nation with 10 million people battled a 50 million people nation 400 years ago? I understand very well the word patriotism
Your post was a very positive one with no offenses. Clean, and polite. Thank you for such a nice reply. The thing here is that it' an enormous task to go help the underdog... You know the world it's full of them, and in Africa you might notice that a lot of countries live under terrible dictatorships...
bigpig13: don't read only my initial post. if you read all the others you will know that didn't meant "flag", but "banner"... US flag is an important flag, for you and for many other countries.
Twisted: i know that there were a lot of reasons to start this conflict. "to free Iraqi's people" was the last of the reasons to start it. You can name "bring stability to middle east", you can tell me "saddam was a threat to US and to Europe", but "freeing Iraq's people" it's the natural consequence of the first two things, and not the main reason. Anyway, I'm happy that people from Iraq are now near to get their freedom.
bigpig13: I avoid talking about the WTC slaughter because it was one of the most terrible thing I saw in whole my life... Guess you and many people in here think that I have any sympathy for Saddam or whateaver, but hell no! I won't "punk out" but it's hard to keep on going with this since people stick to the "flag" since the beginning of the thread. Nothing to do with it. Do you think that it's wrong to believe that US could've waited a little bit more before heading to war? Do you think I wouldn't fight for my country if I had to? I am capable of grabbing a gun if I have to (although i must confess that in whole my life i never grabbed one!), but I would prefer my country to avoid me having to grab it. I am not a BS pacifist, but I told you before, I can't agree with war... if it's avoidable. One more thing, I won't comment the "everyone puts the pressure on you", since 100% of peple are against my position. I'm alone here... and you have been in war, you know the expression "fallback"... so, it's time for me to "fallback".
Now a lesson of history about our flag (you gave me one, i'll give you this one in trade)
In Portuguese flag, green means hope, red means courage and the blood of Portuguese people killed in combat. The 5 shields represent the 5 arabian kings defeated by our first king D. Afonso Henriques in 1139, the battle that was our first important step to reach independence again. Inside each shield there are represented the 5 wounds of Jesus Christ. The seven castles are castles fortified to protect people from any reconquer attempt from the arabians and the sphere represents the "world" that Portuguese sailors fount in XV and XVIth century and the people with whom we established comercial agreements and traded ideas (of course it doesn't talk about occupancy but yes, we had colonies in the past, and yes we made our mistakes then).
regards,
bigpig13: don't read only my initial post. if you read all the others you will know that didn't meant "flag", but "banner"... US flag is an important flag, for you and for many other countries.
Twisted: i know that there were a lot of reasons to start this conflict. "to free Iraqi's people" was the last of the reasons to start it. You can name "bring stability to middle east", you can tell me "saddam was a threat to US and to Europe", but "freeing Iraq's people" it's the natural consequence of the first two things, and not the main reason. Anyway, I'm happy that people from Iraq are now near to get their freedom.
bigpig13: I avoid talking about the WTC slaughter because it was one of the most terrible thing I saw in whole my life... Guess you and many people in here think that I have any sympathy for Saddam or whateaver, but hell no! I won't "punk out" but it's hard to keep on going with this since people stick to the "flag" since the beginning of the thread. Nothing to do with it. Do you think that it's wrong to believe that US could've waited a little bit more before heading to war? Do you think I wouldn't fight for my country if I had to? I am capable of grabbing a gun if I have to (although i must confess that in whole my life i never grabbed one!), but I would prefer my country to avoid me having to grab it. I am not a BS pacifist, but I told you before, I can't agree with war... if it's avoidable. One more thing, I won't comment the "everyone puts the pressure on you", since 100% of peple are against my position. I'm alone here... and you have been in war, you know the expression "fallback"... so, it's time for me to "fallback".
Now a lesson of history about our flag (you gave me one, i'll give you this one in trade)
In Portuguese flag, green means hope, red means courage and the blood of Portuguese people killed in combat. The 5 shields represent the 5 arabian kings defeated by our first king D. Afonso Henriques in 1139, the battle that was our first important step to reach independence again. Inside each shield there are represented the 5 wounds of Jesus Christ. The seven castles are castles fortified to protect people from any reconquer attempt from the arabians and the sphere represents the "world" that Portuguese sailors fount in XV and XVIth century and the people with whom we established comercial agreements and traded ideas (of course it doesn't talk about occupancy but yes, we had colonies in the past, and yes we made our mistakes then).
regards,
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