A simple lesson in business and economics:

[GoldenChild]

My dad just retired from GE with 35 years of service, he started working there when I was 4. He got out before all of this and your right...I'm glad he made it, as he gave them every hour they needed of him, even when we needed him more...That's dedication and loyalty for a company that now, could care less about how they got to their global position..

i have an opinion. i have expressed it. i do not know the details of hostess to presume to understand. all i know is for every company i have worked for that is union they post profits that are through the roof, but yet cut wages to "competitive/welfare needing to survive" wages. i have been through one plant closing in which we were offered half our pay and no pension and no health and we said no because we KNEW what type of profit they were making. guess what...they didn't close it...they tried to move it to 8$ a hour labor...guess what...soon as they worked there 6 months they went to union shops where their skills earned them 24!! so they begged us to stay and guess what ...they are still in business!! still making huge profits!! oh...lets take ourselves and our opinons back to elementary school and look up the definition of PROFIT shall we??

profit - definition of profit by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

prof·it (prft)
n.
1. An advantageous gain or return; benefit.
2. The return received on a business undertaking after all operating expenses have been met.
3.
a. The return received on an investment after all charges have been paid. Often used in the plural.
b. The rate of increase in the net worth of a business enterprise in a given accounting period.
c. Income received from investments or property.
d. The amount received for a commodity or service in excess of the original cost.


folks this means all cost of business....ceo salary's down to the union wages to cost of operations to cost of material ect ect ect... profit is PROFIT meaning even REINVESTMENT!! it is excess money above and beyond EVERYTHING! so forgive me when GE posts 6.8 BILLION thats 6,800,000,000) and yet they are cutting all thier non union shops wages to "compettive wages" or half thier salary...(you imagine working for a company for years to come in one day and told you have to now work for half your wage....deal with it...) how would you think of CORPORATE AMERICA and thiers or anyone else's whining saying its the UNIONS FAULT???!!!

link to back claims read for yourself what GE is doing to your fellow Americans

http://www.facebook.com/StopGEWageCuts?fref=ts

 

[jellyrug]

Here is my brief input about unions :

1.) I have never belonged to one.

2.) I have negotiated with many, some the experience was fine, others it was absolutely terrible.

3.) There is no right and no wrong, it depends on a person's personal value system.

4.) My values are not union orientated, as in my profession I always try and add value to the extent where the company needs me and I am appreciated. If I feel I land in a system where I cannot add enough value, I'm gone, bye bye.

5.) If my values were different, I needed a job and protection from unfair labor practices and my line of work was such that keeping, or getting a job is risky, I probably would appreciate a union.

6.) Representing my employer, we try and keep unions out wherever we can, by really taking care of our folks, but where this is not possible, we make the best of it and work with the unions.

7.) Finally, I don't think there is wrong or right, it depends on a persons personal value system which I do not have right to judge.

And, that was my rant for today.

 

[Fastfrog007]

Got the last one on the shelf...

<img src="https://www.hayabusa.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=256230"/>

Put it in the hump of a '99 copper, investing like a bauce!

 

[dadofthree]

I'm gonna need to do a taste test to verify your claims.

You better hurry, had my first Zingers the other night

 

[chrisjp]

a judge ordered a halt to the hostess closeing and ordered the union and the company to go to arbitration.

Twinkies maker Hostess lives at least another day: Associated Press Business News - MSN Money

the only problem is depending on the state if you are forced to enter arbitration the union has to accept what is suggested and must return to work at that rate for their contract. it almost always is not good thing for the union and why they struck before going to it. again depends on the states laws.

 

[Justyntym]

So...why the heck does a twinkie baker need (or deserve) a pension ???
Ya make twinkies all day for pete's sake...is it dangerous...is the stress overwhelming

Thank you for serving your country oh great twinkie maker.....
Pension....and then complain the job moves to China or Mexico....wake up and
get a clue

 

[masterblaster]

Pension is part of the total compensation package that enticed the workers to work there in the first place, they deserve it if the company agreed to it, now if the company wants to change course they have that right but they have to pay what is owed to this point.

So...why the heck does a twinkie baker need (or deserve) a pension ???
Ya make twinkies all day for pete's sake...is it dangerous...is the stress overwhelming

Thank you for serving your country oh great twinkie maker.....
Pension....and then complain the job moves to China or Mexico....wake up and
get a clue

 

[StromBusa]

Just one more indication of what we have lost as a country... we can't even make twinkies anymore.... practice you wax on wax off for the Chinese Buicks

 

[Gpmo]

Just one more indication of what we have lost as a country... we can't even make twinkies anymore.... practice you wax on wax off for the Chinese Buicks

Hmmmm. This thread is dumb.

 

[proud dad]

It was inevitable. If you would broaden your horizon and see past the right wing talking points you could see theres more at play than your willing to admit. Its not totally one sides fault or the other, but I blame the people at the top running the company alot more than I blame the employees.

If you believe for a second the union put the steel industry under youre out of your mind. When a country backs new facilities and provides a workforce of slave labor how can anyone compete, not to mention the negligence of facilities by owners in the u.s.

The gm/chrysler/uaw situation is horribly screwed up on both sides with the union being largely at fault, but how did ford make it?

The bottom of the pay in leadership at hostess was over 200k with the cfo being 2 million +.

subsidizing the private businesses with government money is and was a horrible idea. It was political positing too, people like yourselves allow them to do this and turn us against each other, which leaves us stagnated and a community leader with a second term. Class warfare is never a good thing

a little off topic,only the press makes everyone believe GM and Chrysler was the only ones to take money..Ford,Toyota,BMW,Harley Davidson also took bailout.Along with a few others..1 of many links on the subject...google... [video]http://jalopnik.com/5704575/ford-bmw-toyota-took-secret-government-money[/video]

 

[m_ridgeway]

a little off topic,only the press makes everyone believe GM and Chrysler was the only ones to take money..Ford,Toyota,BMW,Harley Davidson also took bailout.Along with a few others..1 of many links on the subject...google... [video]http://jalopnik.com/5704575/ford-bmw-toyota-took-secret-government-money[/video]

im aware of the extent of the bailout, while ford participated it was to a lesser degree and monies loaned against their assets. while i disagree with it either way you cant really say the two received the same type of bailout. shades of gray

 

[m_ridgeway]

who are you to judge another mans worth? sounds like youre benefit package is lacking and your jealous or youre highly arrogant.

So...why the heck does a twinkie baker need (or deserve) a pension ???
Ya make twinkies all day for pete's sake...is it dangerous...is the stress overwhelming

Thank you for serving your country oh great twinkie maker.....
Pension....and then complain the job moves to China or Mexico....wake up and
get a clue

 

[masterblaster]

So true, treat anyone working or willing to work with respect of it will come back to haunt ya. BTW the way working in a bakery is a very hard job, on par with a cook in the Army, one of the hardest jobs in the military.

who are you to judge another mans worth? sounds like youre benefit package is lacking and your jealous or youre highly arrogant.

 

[chrisjp]

i am amazed how distant people are from the morals of their forefathers. where you worked for the man and were a important and crucial part of his success. A good employer took care of his employee's as a total whole because they understood and were humble from their own lives that work/health/family/future all are one. then with the industrial age....we introduced wholesale GREED. that is why we FIGHT for a total compensation package because with wages below livable wages there is NO ability to effectively save for retirement with inflation rates. or even afford to get sick. PERIOD

 

[skydivr]

So true, treat anyone working or willing to work with respect of it will come back to haunt ya. BTW the way working in a bakery is a very hard job, on par with a cook in the Army, one of the hardest jobs in the military.

O'really? A cook in the Army one of the hardest jobs in the military? ??? I guess those infantrymen just have it waay too easy....I call a massive :bs:on that statement...


The Teamsters (almost 50% of the unionized employees at hostess) accepted the contract, it was the baker's union that balked and blew it for everybody. I will agree that layer of greedy management can play a part in stuff like this, but the union flat out killed the goose that laid the golden egg. It will now be easier and more profitable with the owners to sell off the brands and assets than put up with the unions. What a shame.

This is what happens when a company's ownership, management and employees are distanced from each other, and all get so greedy that they will all go down with the ship rather than cooperate. Kinda the same thing in today's politics - the ownership (people), management (Congress and WH) and Employees will all go down in flames in order to keep their personal slice of the pie in place over everyone elses.

 

[masterblaster]

If you don't think a cook works hard in the Army you never made it past Boy Scout. Done my time bang banging, light infatry 7th ID, yep the cooks had it harder than us. Of course some units that like to fly to where they are going might have it different but in big army it is a hard job and thankless (no contractors, actual Army cooks.

O'really? A cook in the Army one of the hardest jobs in the military? ??? I guess those infantrymen just have it waay too easy....I call a massive :bs:on that statement...


The Teamsters (almost 50% of the unionized employees at hostess) accepted the contract, it was the baker's union that balked and blew it for everybody. I will agree that layer of greedy management can play a part in stuff like this, but the union flat out killed the goose that laid the golden egg. It will now be easier and more profitable with the owners to sell off the brands and assets than put up with the unions. What a shame.

This is what happens when a company's ownership, management and employees are distanced from each other, and all get so greedy that they will all go down with the ship rather than cooperate. Kinda the same thing in today's politics - the ownership (people), management (Congress and WH) and Employees will all go down in flames in order to keep their personal slice of the pie in place over everyone elses.

 

[skydivr]

Oh, I made it past boy scout. I'm not saying at all that Army cooks don't work hard - I had cooks in my command so I know the job they do, and the hours they put in. But it's not getting shot at and that's the huge distinction.

 

[masterblaster]

Getting shot at is not hard work for a GRUNT, its actually quite easy these days in the right/wrong neighborhood, so is getting blown up by an IED. Not the point though, granted things might be easier today on cooks with all the prepackaged food and whatnot, back in the day (35 years ago) its sucked to be a cook.

 

[skydivr]

Now THAT I would agree with. All the work, none of the 'glory'....and yes, underappreciated (until you got hungry, that is)...

Back to the OT. Where this company failed is simple GREED, nothing else. GREED by the management, sucking down big salaries and bonues while the company's performance sagged. GREED by the Unions, saddling the company with wage/pension/work rules/bennies that made it uncompetitive in the marketplace. GREED but the hedge funds and corporate raiders on wall street, who are only in it long enough to make the stock look good at the expense of long-term stability in order to make a quick buck, because the in-house, original ownership who had a real stake in the company is long gone. GREED by the government, who pile on regulation after regulation for the "good of the county/people/environment/labor'. GREED GREED GREED. I'll be the guy who originally started Hostess is spinning in his grave, while his trust-fund grandchildren squander his accomplishments. For it to really work, everybody has to, in some way, share in the ups and downs in a company, and remain flexible enough to handle rough bumps in the road.

Our country is Hostess in a microchasm.

 

[captain]

You will very seldom see me as an absolutist in anything, I look at the situation and the totality of the circumstances to make up my decisions. Am I going to say that all Unions are bad, of course not... But I will tell you where the flawed logic is at.... Anytime you have folks that compare one job with the other to determine value you will have problems. Fair is not a word that should ever be used in a work environment. I do believe that this country is full of hard working folks, I believe that people want to do a good job and they want to bring value to their companies at the same time getting the most they can to take home to the real important thing which is family... You can never compare two different jobs and try to make a "Fair" analysis of the situation based on revenue... If a CEO makes 1 million a year and the janitor makes 30,000 then and they both work really hard is that fair? The company made 50 billion in revenue so should they pay the janitor more? I keep hearing this theme over and over on this forum and in the news. People want to take a known lower paying job (Fair or not) like teaching or in this case baking and then continue to demand more money because the CEO made a million. The real answer here to try to work on getting a job where the known pay is better than what you have now.. You can't just keep wanting the pay limits for the job you have to go up and up without the job changing...

When the employees went to work at Hostess they knew the pay, they knew the hours and accepted the job.... Now they want more because there is more revenue.... I will not disagree that there is more money but that is the decision and risk that the management team gets to make.... In a non union shop if they cut pay or don't keep up with the "Fair Market" then employees will leave and go somewhere else. If they do pay more then skilled people will stay and work hard.

We have a crazy world these days where people have all the facts, make choices and then want to change the rules in the middle of the game because it doesn't seem fair. I was in emergency services for many years, a cop for 6 1/2 and fire for 10 and I knew what my pay was going to be. I knew what it was going to cost, I loved my job (maybe too much) but I also knew what it was going to take to save to send my son to college, get my wife the things I wanted her to have and to have the standard of living I wanted. I chose to leave that job I loved to take on a job where I knew the starting salary would meet those needs and where the potential was at to make more.... Why do people not get it, if you want more money you may have to find a different profession.....

Off Rant


Cap