Afghanistan, more than a decade later.

[zukracer]

As simple an answer as I can boil it down to... We should have either turned it to glass or stayed out. We've accomplished little in the past 10+ years there that we couldn't have done with the use of SF teams and strategic missile strikes. We've wasted billions of dollars, lost thousands of lives, destroyed the economy and for what? We don't own the oil, there is still civil unrest, the local's army we will leave behind probably stands little chance if invaded by the aggressors of the region AND while we were at it, we've reduced or removed a good bit of military presence around the world.

The first gulf war we showed up, in force and bombed the dog crap out of them in Iraq. They lost and Kuwait got their country & oil back, which in turn means we got a big benefit and we gained a key allie in Saudi Arabia as a result of protecting their butts. Most of what we have done since then has been less effective. We probably could have accomplished as much by staying out of it as being in it the way we have been. People of that region have been fighting each other since the dawn of time, over their belief in who's god is better, forcing our belief in democratic life pails in comparison. As Keith says I'd rather fight them there than here but I'd just assume we take the gloves off and really take the fight to them. Being an occupying force is just expensive all the way around, especially when there is no real end game in sight.

So to more directly answer your question.... I do not think we will accomplish much by staying but now that we are there I think we have to be careful how we exit. If we leave too quickly the vacuum effect will potentially open the door for naughty neighbors to swoop in and take over. If we take too long, we have political stuff the world over to deal with, we continue to spend money we dont have and are seen very much as an occupying force. In the end, honestly I don't see the value add for having gone to battle there a second time and history should have taught us to stay out of Afgan.

 

[GNBRETT]

How can you say 'ridiculous' when there have been no major attacks on the US proper since 9/11? Would you care to guess what might have happened otherwise? We have kept them busy in their own country, which keeps them out of ours. May not last forever, but it's been an effective strategy so far.

you mean like the guy living in Bridgeport, Connecticut who tried to set off a bomb in times square? the bomb didnt go off cause he failed in his attempt not because of our efforts in afganistan.

our airport security, national security around the world, homeland security agents, improved awareness and improved intelligence has prevented attacks. blowing up towel heads up from a third world country has only caused us to lose thousands of US soldiers. in fact, we have lost over 6300 Americans in iraq and afganistan which is more then double the Americans we lost on 9/11 so our Americans really safer? apparently not.

 

[zukracer]

you mean like the guy living in Bridgeport, Connecticut who tried to set off a bomb in times square? the bomb didnt go off cause he failed in his attempt not because of our efforts in afganistan.

our airport security, national security around the world, homeland security agents, improved awareness and improved intelligence has prevented attacks. blowing up towel heads up from a third world country has only caused us to lose thousands of US soldiers. in fact, we have lost over 6300 Americans in iraq and afganistan which is more then double the Americans we lost on 9/11 so our Americans really safer? apparently not.

As someone that flies regularly (like every few days) I'll just nit pick the TSA part of this one If the thousands of TSA folks I've interacted with for the past decade were my only hope of defense against terrorists I would never fly. Most of them barely pass the "fog the mirror test" and are far from being able to foil any plots of random stupidity. They are there for a reason and that reason is to project a feeling of security on the flying public and to stop the really stupid people from trying to engage in acts of stupidity. Though if you ask the general flying public they'll tell you the TSA is just there to be a pain in their arses

 

[GNBRETT]

As someone that flies regularly (like every few days) I'll just nit pick the TSA part of this one If the thousands of TSA folks I've interacted with for the past decade were my only hope of defense against terrorists I would never fly. Most of them barely pass the "fog the mirror test" and are far from being able to foil any plots of random stupidity. They are there for a reason and that reason is to project a feeling of security on the flying public and to stop the really stupid people from trying to engage in acts of stupidity. Though if you ask the general flying public they'll tell you the TSA is just there to be a pain in their arses

I certainly dont think the TSA will save us from disaster but the items that were allowed on a plane before 9/11 would never be allowed on a plane today. but then again I think if a few middle eastern men pull out knives and threaten the passengers on an airplane the chances are the passengers will take their chances getting stabbed then flying into a building knowing what they know now.

imo the next attack will be Israeli style with a bus blowing up by a suicide bomber wearing a back pack so how effective or ineffective the TSA is will be irrelevant.

 

[Big Moe]

To me comparing WWII and these wars is like comparing apples and oranges! WWII was a REAL ALL OUT WAR with the combatants known and lines drawn! WWII Soldiers basically had nothing and constantly lived through conditions that would make most Soldiers today call it quits! They were a different breed!! Now don't get it twisted, I'm not taking anything away from my Brothers and Sisters who put everything on the lines for their country today. I'm just saying that there are very different parameters that make very distinct differences between the two wars! WWII Soldiers had motivation that strengthened their minds and bodies! They knew that if they failed, their Country and more importantly their Families would suffer! Therefore, they COULD NOT fail and continued to drive on!! As a Leader today, I have to really find creative ways to keep my Troopers focused and mentally in the game! After being over there so many times, (most times) the things that motivate them and keep them going is the little "extra" MONEY they receive and thoughts of how they will spend it when they return! See what I mean? WWII--Fighting for Country/Family. Some NOT ALL young OIF/OEF Soldiers---fighting to make it home and spend money!! Very distinctively different driving forces!! Lets talk about the parameters for a min. Most importantly WWII Soldiers knew what and WHO exactly they were engaged in combat with! Key word in that sentence is WHO. Being over there a few times myself, I can say from experience that over there you dont know WHO exactly to look out for!! Is it the guy with the AK47(By law they are allowed to openly display and carry arms) or is it that women over there with the bulging dress? Is she pregnant? Is she wearing a suicide vest? I dont know, I cant tell?!! Most times you cannot distinguish WHO it is that you are "looking out for!" This plays on the mind in strange ways. For one, how do you continue to view children and women as such, when they are some of the ones killing your Brothers and Sisters too?! Its a different war!! I will cut this short as I could go on for days on this subject! I will not give my "opinion" because I am an old Soldier and feel as though I do not have an "opinion"(at least on an open forum)! But I will say that instead of lobbying about the "WHEN" lets talk about the "NOW"! Lets please lobby to get my Brothers and Sisters the help that they need when they return!!! Lets talk about increasing the amount of awareness and push our legislators to improve the system used to monitor and treat our Heroes when they return HOME!! I care for my Troopers as if they were my own children and Im not asking for anything you wouldnt ask for for your children!! Be safe out there Fam!!

Chris

 

[zukracer]

To me comparing WWII and these wars is like comparing apples and oranges! WWII was a REAL ALL OUT WAR with the combatants known and lines drawn! WWII Soldiers basically had nothing and constantly lived through conditions that would make most Soldiers today call it quits! They were a different breed!! Now don't get it twisted, I'm not taking anything away from my Brothers and Sisters who put everything on the lines for their country today. I'm just saying that there are very different parameters that make very distinct differences between the two wars! WWII Soldiers had motivation that strengthened their minds and bodies! They knew that if they failed, their Country and more importantly their Families would suffer! Therefore, they COULD NOT fail and continued to drive on!! As a Leader today, I have to really find creative ways to keep my Troopers focused and mentally in the game! After being over there so many times, (most times) the things that motivate them and keep them going is the little "extra" MONEY they receive and thoughts of how they will spend it when they return! See what I mean? WWII--Fighting for Country/Family. Some NOT ALL young OIF/OEF Soldiers---fighting to make it home and spend money!! Very distinctively different driving forces!! Lets talk about the parameters for a min. Most importantly WWII Soldiers knew what and WHO exactly they were engaged in combat with! Key word in that sentence is WHO. Being over there a few times myself, I can say from experience that over there you dont know WHO exactly to look out for!! Is it the guy with the AK47(By law they are allowed to openly display and carry arms) or is it that women over there with the bulging dress? Is she pregnant? Is she wearing a suicide vest? I dont know, I cant tell?!! Most times you cannot distinguish WHO it is that you are "looking out for!" This plays on the mind in strange ways. For one, how do you continue to view children and women as such, when they are some of the ones killing your Brothers and Sisters too?! Its a different war!! I will cut this short as I could go on for days on this subject! I will not give my "opinion" because I am an old Soldier and feel as though I do not have an "opinion"(at least on an open forum)! But I will say that instead of lobbying about the "WHEN" lets talk about the "NOW"! Lets please lobby to get my Brothers and Sisters the help that they need when they return!!! Lets talk about increasing the amount of awareness and push our legislators to improve the system used to monitor and treat our Heroes when they return HOME!! I care for my Troopers as if they were my own children and Im not asking for anything you wouldnt ask for for your children!! Be safe out there Fam!!

Chris

Chris first of all, thank you for your service and with all due respect I am not comparing WWII with the current war. I'm comparing the way its being done. If the leaders of that war were bound by the same rules we are today, if they had the politicians so far up their arse that they had to yawn for the politician to get a breath, if they had to fight a war with real time updates in the media and the same kid glove attitude we would have lost. The rules of engagement might not be different but the ability for military leaders like you to make decisions based strictly on what's best for the mission and accomplishing that mission is different. My point was that we need to allow our military leaders to do what they have been trained to do. Take the real time media and politicians out of it so that we can actually engage the enemy correctly and keep our warriors out of harm's way as much as possible.

Your other points are also huge, I think more needs to be done when our soldiers return and are being pushed out of the service into civilian jobs at a time when jobs are in some places just simply not available. There's a lot we could do better as a country, sadly the political leaders running things today are more focused on other less important things and unless someone makes it a key issue during the election, our heros will continue to get the wrong end of the short stick all too often .

 

[Big Moe]

Chris first of all, thank you for your service and with all due respect I am not comparing WWII with the current war. I'm comparing the way its being done. If the leaders of that war were bound by the same rules we are today, if they had the politicians so far up their arse that they had to yawn for the politician to get a breath, if they had to fight a war with real time updates in the media and the same kid glove attitude we would have lost. The rules of engagement might not be different but the ability for military leaders like you to make decisions based strictly on what's best for the mission and accomplishing that mission is different. My point was that we need to allow our military leaders to do what they have been trained to do. Take the real time media and politicians out of it so that we can actually engage the enemy correctly and keep our warriors out of harm's way as much as possible.

Your other points are also huge, I think more needs to be done when our soldiers return and are being pushed out of the service into civilian jobs at a time when jobs are in some places just simply not available. There's a lot we could do better as a country, sadly the political leaders running things today are more focused on other less important things and unless someone makes it a key issue during the election, our heros will continue to get the wrong end of the short stick all too often .

Totally agree!

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Big Moe thoughtful words, thanks and thanks for your service.

Zuk I think the rules now are as open as before, you see the enemy kill him!
Only trouble is like Big Moe said we don't really know who the enemy is. You say politicians are controlling this conflict but I think it's them that are just making it look like they are doing that in order to gain public favor and votes. Our military uses drones in numerous countries daily and blasts folks into oblivion immediately if they think they are up to no good. It is documented in Vietnam where troops on the ground had to literally wait for the White House to make the call but I think nowadays our commanders pretty much have green light to do what's needed. For instances like the raid to get Osama of course the higher ups had to make the call because we were going into a sovereign nation on a hunch but for your regular days work I think the troops make the calls. I may be wrong?

Skydivr you say we are fighting them in their country? The 9/11 hijackers lived their entire lives in and were from the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Spent little time in Afg if they were ever actually there. So why spend ten years in a country where our attackers didn't come from? Lots of Taliban training camps in Afg. Ok sure but I'd bet that only years before they were Mujaheddin camps and CIA personnel were present. Ever wonder how it is we had such a clear drawn target map of all those places? Maybe because we knew exactly where they were from prior attendance?

Zuk you say 'turn it into glass'. Would you or anyone have been comfy Nukin Afg because 19 Saudis trained there? Nukin thousands of Afghanis who had zero hatred for Americans? How quickly time has allowed us to forget the Afghanis were our friends and allies for many years.

 

[zukracer]

Zuk you say 'turn it into glass'. Would you or anyone have been comfy Nukin Afg because 19 Saudis trained there? Nukin thousands of Afghanis who had zero hatred for Americans? How quickly time has allowed us to forget the Afghanis were our friends and allies for many years.

Ahh were they ever really our friends or were they a matter of convenience in our fight with the USSR And we aren't there because 19 Saudis trained there, if we are a group of someones somewhere needs their head examined desperately.

Turn it to glass has often been used as a blanket statement of just leveling a place and you don't need to use nukes to turn it to glass, you could just as easily use conventional bombs to do it. I would not hesitate to level an area known to have my enemy encamped, I guess I have a more "kill em all and let god sort them out" approach when dealing with a group of people that want to destroy my way of life, my country and do so by any means possible. There are no innocents hiding in the houses, caves or mansions with these enemy combatants. They know exactly who they are shacked up with no doubt. Destroy a few towns that are providing assistance to these combatants and I suspect it will be much harder for them to find a place to hide. Right or wrong its effective, just look at the history books...and you dont have to go very far back to find examples of this tactic with positive results.

 

[newman]

I agreed when we went in, but now I think it's time to get out.

I can't remember the dates for the pull out of the US and BRIT troops, but I think when they do it will go back to the way it was. I just can't see the Afghan army being able to cope.

Also all this rubbish, giving information, through the media in advance, about when we are going to do something, like we are going to do a major offensive, on so and so date, and even where we are going to attack, why do this, telling your enemy what your up to.
This is not the way to fight a war.

I just want to know how they are going to justify the loss of all the lives when it goes back to how it was.

 

[BusaFbaby]

i think that once they got bin laden it was time to go. everything else is trying to save face. let the enemy talk all they want about how they were defeated. i bet they dont test us. and if they do then they can learn the hard way like tens of thousands of dead insurgents did. the only war an enemy can win is one of public opinion. which plays on our "morals". total war is something they have no chance at