Braking in the Corners

[NearDeath]

I know the rule... brake, roll-off, lean, roll-on... but, sometimes if you are not familiar with teh turn coming up, you don't know how sharp it is until you are in it...

I have been riding for a few years now and I have to admit that I will gently get on the front/rear brakes in a turn while leaned... I just feather the brakes "gently" to shave off speed while I am leaned over... I notice that the bike wants to stand up in the turn if you hit the brakes... When you let off the brakes in the turn, she just drops. (drops to a lean quickly)

I can understand that if you get on the brakes in a turn too hard, you risk skidding and that kind of thing, but if you are gentel, it doesn't seem probable. why does everyone preach "don't get on the brakes in the turn?"

Cloud



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[WWJD]

because you should be accelerating thru the turn

 

[thrasherfox]

I am not by any means an expert, however I got to play around a lot with my braking and accelerating on my last ride.

First off I want to state, that while I have never had ANY track time, I know there is a difference between riding on a track and riding on a mountain road. In my mind there HAS to be a difference.

On a track you pretty much know the track, you have good visibility, don’t have to worry much about pot holes, animals running out in front of you, or on coming traffic.

With that said here is what I do on mountain roads.


1) decelerate like a bitch before the turn, I make sure I can evaluate the turn and then I accelerate all the way through the turn.

2) I make sure that no matter what, whatever I do I do within my lane, I don’t allow myself to be pushed to the point where I am crossing the line.

3) I keep three fingers on the brake lever and I throttle with what’s left.

4) If I am going to fast for the turn I use the front brakes, and I am not afraid to hit them pretty hard, BUT you have to make sure there is nothing on the road that will cause your tire to slip AND you have to make sure you have a good front tire. I have gone around a turn accelerating with no brakes and hit some sand and all that happened was my bike in a right corner shifted about 3 inches to the left, I didn’t even miss a beat, bike didn’t stand up, I didn’t slow down, it just slid about 3 inches and I kept going, however I am pretty confident if I were to have had my front brake squeezed at all that my tire probably would have locked in the sand, and when it grabbed I might have got thrown.

You have to constantly be evaluating the road in front of you, it is not that hard to see sand patches, animals, etc. just need to keep your eye on the road.


Not sure if it is the way I sit, my weight, the fact I have been riding for over 21 years or what it is, but I have been in a turn and hit the front brakes hard enough where the nose dove just a little but I never lost my angle, it never tried to stand up on me and it never tried to cut in tighter. Not that I am aware of, for all I know I could be sub consciously compensating for any variance in angle, I don’t know..

I do know that before I got the Busa last year, I had not had much riding time in for the previous 3 to 4 years and when I got the Busa it was a learning experience on multiple levels.

One, I forgot the importance of using the front brake, this cost me in Phoenix when I rear ended Mikey D however as soon as I got back I started practicing getting good with my front brake, I would take it up and down my street, started off hitting the front brake hard at 5 mph, then at 10 mph then at 20 etc, got to where I can be doing 60mph and slam the front brake to stop without skidding, with out doing a stoppie, but close.

I have worked the front brake on wet asphalt, I am not an expert, but I am not afraid to hit the front brake any longer, which has really helped me in my turns.

Another thing I have had to get used to, with my GS750, when I hit turns what felt comfortable and allowed me to get low (scraping low) was to get my arse off the seat and drag a knee, felt good, felt comfortable and I had balance and it was all good.

On the Busa when I tried that it felt awkward, it didn’t feel right instead of feeling like I was a part of the bike, I felt like I was something just hanging off the edge, and then I started playing around and to my amazement, with my Busa, al I need to do is lay down on her, I don’t need to get off the seat, I don’t need do drag a knee, if I am hitting a turn hard I am almost laying on the tank, if I am in a right corner I am laying on the right side of the tank, if I am in a left corner I am laying on the left side of the tank.

When I ride like that it as if I am part of her, instead of like being two separate entities, we are one working with each other and not against each other.

I was heading to Reno on my last trip, they have these cool sweepers between Fallon and Reno just outside of Reno, I hit one of the sweepers doing about 140, and I did something I normally don’t do, I passed a truck in a turn. I decelerated just before and had my high beams on to make sure the driver saw me, but once I knew the driver saw me and it was good, I just hit it. Laying down on the busa and hugging her in a sweeper in excess of 130 was an awesome feeling.

Anyway cloud, hope my rambling was helpful in someway. Front brake and turn good, front brake, turn and sand bad.



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[BigDawg_03Busa]

I've applied soft braking in turns, but an inexperienced rider may have a hard time distinguishig b/t soft braking and crunch stoppie time/skid/road rash time. I've only had to do this in turns I've mis-calculated initially. I've noticed a lil extra lean will more than compensate for too much braking. My .02

BD

 

[NearDeath]

Thanks for the info. Thrash. This is the kind of response I was hoping for...

to sum up; will everyone agree then, "Front brake and turn good, front brake, turn and sand bad. " ?

Cloud

 

[fstbusa]

breaking in a turn can cause the tires to lose grip.... if you must brake... brake with caution.

 

[Haywood]

breaking in a turn can cause the tires to lose grip.... if you must brake... brake with caution.

this is true... also, i think code said it in one of his books... something like this:

tires do their job well.
suspension does it's job well.
but add breaking to the mix and you're asking too much of both... particularly on a down hill corner when the front end is already loaded up.

front braking in a corner while leaned should be used very cautiously and rarely as the bike will tend to stand up and you may be asking too much of the bike and you might lowside.

 

[Redline John]

I've found in 36 years of riding that a "tad" rear brake in the turns is perfectly fine--if needed to drag off a bit too much speed, while increasing in-board lean. Doesn't affect stand-up. Called "trail braking," I think. It acutally LOADS rear suspension rather than reducing the contact patch between your rear tire and the road. Thus traction is still on the positive side of the equation. BUT, as with all maneuvers, throttle and ANY braking is to be done smoothly and with a light touch.

 

[Charlesbusa]

If you go into a turn to hot, trail braking(rear brake) is an option. I wouldn't use front brake without standing the bike up first, just too risky for me. But remember, the bike will do way more than you think. Just look into the turn(where you want to go) and lean, lean, lean. Brakes and a lot lean.........don't go together well.

 

[Dr Geekenstein]

I really have nothing to add, but would LOVE to see RiderCoach put his $.02 in, he was to write an article for us a few weeks ago on this very subject.....Coach

Where are ya ?





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[bacharles]

I've taken one bit of advice to heart from RiderCoach (thanx man...) about cornering. I always look ahead in the curve at the spot where I want to be when I arrive and it's almost automatic. Just looking ahead at a spot and holding your line works wonders. I found out on my own through trial and error that if my body position is in a more forward leaning position (i.e. stomach towards gas tank), the bike tends to feel that it's sweeping through the curves rather than pushing through the curve. I think that everyone would agree that the sweeping motion in a curve is far better than pushing. Oh yeah, and accelerating through the curve is definitely a must in order to maintain a solid line and to help with the sweep. My .02, but it can sometime be worth a million bucks.


Brian

 

[bacharles]

My last statement was a little off-subject. As far as braking, I've never had to brake so far. I've compensated with more lean angle. But believe me when I say that the instruction from RiderCoach has done wonders when he advises looking ahead and finding a spot in the curve.


Brian

 

[EAKbusa]

Braking in a turn is a bad idea because either you lose traction (locks up) or the bike wants to stand up and you ride right off of the road.

The reason is that the wheels are gyroscopes (rotating mass) and forces applied to gyroscopes do weird things (such forces like brakes for instance). You might recall in science class doing a little experiment with a bicycle wheel spinning between your hands and then trying to turn it - you might remember how it fights change of direction etc.

Long story short, when you apply brakes to the wheels in a lean, the gyroscopic forces cause the bike to want to stand up - effectively increasing your turn radius until you ride right off of the road. So be careful with the brakes people.

Remember. If you enter a turn too fast your best bet is to lean as hard as you can and go for it. Much better than trying to save it by braking or else a lowside is inevitable. Can't fight physics folks. And besides, you just might finally touch that peg and realize that you can lean further than you think. Cool!

 

[pure_ego]

take the brakes off the bike... then you'll never have to worry about using them too much.

 

[briXXer]

when u brake in a corner u already know the bike wants to stand up which requires more lean angle.. BUT
when u brake it loadsup on the front tire and lightens the rear. and when u lighten the rear u are more apt to sliding the rear out from under u. like somebody said u should be accelerating. which loads the rear up and puts the wieght on it. at least thats what ive read in not so many words...

 

[atticdog]

tires can only do 100% of one thing at a time
100% turning = no grip left for stopping or accelerating
you have to balance that 100
like if you in a turn at 80% you have 20% left to accelerate
or
60 braking 40% turning
when you go over 100% is when you loose traction

 

[Mikey D]

Well said Thrasher.

And notice I didn't say anything bout our little get together!

I might add to this thread a topic near and dear to me.

Counter steer!

 

[Gpirelli]

tires can only do 100% of one thing at  a time
100% turning = no grip left for stopping or accelerating
you have to balance that 100
like if you in a turn at 80% you have 20% left to accelerate
or
60 braking   40% turning
when you go over 100% is when you loose traction

Well said. Basically what you have to remember and I think everyone has been touching on this one way or another, the more you brake in a turn, the less traction is available to you from the already declined traction (from leaning the bike).

 

[Jonny Hotnuts]

This might sound crazy as hell but I have a good friend that races 600 and 750 for team Suzuki. And while everything that he has told me so far have been correct I must admit that I am very apprehensive about trying this on my bike (maybe one of his seven practice bikes but not by busa!)


Basically he says (not sure of the technique but will ask him this weekend) that you can be in a sweeper and apply enough rear brake to cause the back wheel to slide allowing you do to do tighter turns at high speeds.
He also says that you must get on the gas after the slide to counter the slide and force the bike forward as its inertia is pulling differently than the direction of the bike.
(Sort of how dirt track racers turn except on asphalt and doing 100+ mph)

I dont recommend trying this unless you have a disposable bike, full leathers and hotnuts of steel!

 

[Churchkey]

What redline John & Johnny Hotnuts said.

Get off the front brake as you tip in & trail brake. If you need to tighten up the  radius add rear brake & apply power smoothly as you release the rear brake when you enter the apex of the turn. Trust the bike, trust the tires. Front brake in a hot corner will low side you as quick as you can blink, there is no recovery.  A loose rear is controlable with throttle & cross steer.