Busa beatin by Blackbird in Fast Bikes rematch

OB_Bob

Registered
Decemeber Fast Bike Magazine, same one that made the Mach 2 video, retested the XX and the Busa.
The Busa won the all round sport touring test previously done by FB mag.

This time they had a "handling shoot out".

The test was run on some of UK's road's in November.

In short--the riders opinion was the XX was easier to ride hard all day long than the Busa. For two-three laps you could make the Busa go faster, but it would wear on you,(the amount of rider input needed).

Its one rider's opinion, but even so I already hired a gun to take care of him. No maore comparisons for this guy.

Bob
 
Who was the rider ? Saying that the XX is easier to ride all day hard does not make it a better sport bike. It's linked braking does not allow it to be backed into corners well, it does not have the power on exit, and all through the carnage video when they are in twisties you can here it grounding out.

Oh well, everyone has an opinion. The Carnage video says it all though, this allows you to make up your own mind between the 2 bikes which is best.
 
The rider I have not figured out yet, his initials on the helmet are FM. I think its Frosty who can be seen riding in the Fast Bikes Video.
He meant riding the XX hard (twisties/handling) was easier, not crusing to the store.

Read the article, I've come to enjoy this Mag. and believe their test riders on average are very good. Especially Shakey.

They ackowledge the Busa beats the XX in straight line speed.
But, "after riding both bikesdown to the SoF and back I was convinced that the bird was clearly the superior handling motorcycle as far as handling goes, and probably my favored machine all round to boot by virtue of its totally neutral steering and inherent balance. Sure when it comes to tight hairpins, the true tracking, sweet steering bird can't live with the quick-steering, flickable Busa even without those stupid linked brakes that prevent you from backin it in. But, for 90% of Alpine approach roads, the sheer balance of the Blackie shone through and made it a pleasure to push it to the limit.
In fact it's the limit which is the crux of the comparison. You see, the Busa can be pushed to a point ( a point which probably quicker or further than the same point on the blackie) but thats it, any further and you're off, no iffs, buts or pleading for forgiveness. By contrast on the Blackbird when you reach that poinbt, you have a very predictable progression, with which to play.

Enough already.....

I can take the good articles with the bad. Its the same bike I had yesterday, the same bike that power wheelies in second, and lifts the tire when shifting to third.

Bob
 
OK off to the shop to see if this edition arrived in Japan yet. If it was Frosty he also said in the video he preferred the Blackbird for that journey. Would have been a little surprised if it had been Shakey (aka wheelie god and all round nutter !)

Did you keep the original FB article on the Carnage ride ? Just as much fun to read as watching the video.
 
Man am I confused...
The Busa is faster and more flickable
but the XX handles better?
I think it is a given that the XX is more comfortable[according to a # of shoot outs]
but most agree that the Busa handles better
 
After watching the Mach2 video I'm ready to rename the Blackbird "The Scraper". That scraping and scraping became VERY annoying after a while. I can't image what it looked like at the end. I had heard about this problem from XX owners but didn't realize how bad and how early it started scraping until watching the video. Not trying to slam the XX - it's a good bike. Just don't see how it could be rated anywhere near a Busa in the twisties (or straights) after seeing (and hearing)the results with my own eyes. About the only place I know of that it may be better is very long distant touring due to better long range rider comfort. I won't even mention the XX brakes which were a definite disadvantage on the M2 video since they don't seem to be a factor with "regular" (non expert) riders. Nor will I mention the TWENTY HP dyno disadvantage (and torque disadvantage) since it is common knowledge now.
 
So let me see if I got this right: Handling is rated by comfort, rather than lap times. Faster bike needs more "rider input" , therefore slower bike is more desirable. To carry this to it's logical conclusion, a full dress Goldwing, or my Lincoln Navigator may win their next "handling comparison" ? I'll remember that, next time I have my Busa, in the hills, or the quarter mile. { :redface:)
 
I can see what they are saying, as much as I love the Busa, I think about my XX a lot. I think it comes down to Honda craftmenship. Once you own a Honda its hard to have something else replace it. Power wise, you can't touch the Busa but overall the XX is a very good bike.
 
This thread is excellent training and conditioning for the ferocious hair splitting wars we'll be having once the mags start riding the ZX12.

Here's a little food for thought. What would have happened if Suzuki had equipped the stock H with a 16 tooth front sprocket instead of a 17 (like a lot of .orgs have done)? Then when the mags did their H testing the top speed would have been only about 3 mph faster than the XX, and not a lot faster than the R1 and ZX9. Would all you guys have bought one if that were the case?

Just some more training and conditioning. Got to be mentally tough come Feb or March.
 
Did anyone get ripped off by "Fast Bike" in October.

The Cover story is a'Busa of the press.

"230 bhp Abuse of Power STRIPPED FOR SPEED"

on page 50,

"We were due to run a feature on two stripped and tuned 230bhp plus Abusas, but both of them fell out of bed at the last moment."
Fast Bike October 1999.

All there was is a picture of some fine ***** doing a smoker on a black busa. No article what so ever, the issue was a total rip off. No wonder they wrap them in plastic. So in December they offer an Busa Bashing opinion of the Blackbird.

I want my money back, rip off magazine!

www.fastbikesmag.com - let em have it!

A definate job for FalconCop 161®
 
Hey no hero bashing !!

Anyway I hear they only wrap them in plastic in countries where people tend to steal the centre-fold ! :)
 
Don't sleep on the 99 dos equis. The sport rider ram air article wasn't a bunch of BS because I dynoed my stock XX at 139, but (before I dropped to a 16 front), it would run neck and neck on my busa until about 140mph. Gotta be the ram-air giving it more ooomph than the numbers predict. That same XX regularly blew zx9's into the weeds.

My best friend regularly mounts the XX now, and he scrapes her all the time when we're in the mountains, but all he's scraping are the footpeg feelers. The feelers on the XX are way longer than the busa. I'm not an expert rider, but in stock brakes to stock brakes comparison the 99 XX's linked system is just plain better (the 99 has different front/back distribution than the 98). My racing mentor has been road racing for 15 years, (expert WERA & CMRA), and after riding both bikes hard, he couldn't stop praising the XX's brakes.

Both bikes are awesome, but the busa's fit/finish and quality are no match for the honda's. I've got the same # of miles on both bikes and i've spent all the maint. time and $ on the busa. Two XX oil changes and that's it. Stock D205's worn to the edges at 3500 miles, but they look like they've got another 3500 in em.

Yeah, my busa gets all the attention at the road stops, but I'm with the busa because of the 1300's awesome potential (after mods have drained all excess $ from my nodes).

If someone said I had to choose one and leave it completely stock I would likely take the dos equis. If you haven't ridden one, don't assume the XX is a weak bike. Better yet, if you roll up on one for a challenge, check for a little red FI sticker below the XX- that means its a 99. If your busa's still stock then you best to make sure you don't get left on, because rest assurred you won't catch up as quickly as you think.
 
Here's a different opinion on a Busa and an XX trying to run neck aand neck :

"this bike [Busa] takes just 2.6 seconds,
[0-60mph] and reaches 100mph in just 4.9
ticks.(seconds) The Honda [XX] launches just
as hard, taking the same amount of time to
reach 60mph, but it needs a HALF-second MORE
to reach 100. Another quote says: "With 161cc additional displacement(1298cc versus 1137cc), 27 more horsepower and 18 more foot-pounds of torque, the Hayabusa simply feels more powerful than the Blackbird everywhere.
[CycleWorld June 1999]
 
And speaking of Sport Rider - they also tested the Busa head to head against the XX.
Here's a short summary:

Sport Rider tested their Busa at 159.6 HP! The article's heading starts out like this: "Honda's CBR1100XX gets ambushed by Suzuki's awesome GSX1300R Hayabusa"
The Busa ran 9's compared to 10.4 for
the 99XX in this particular test.
They dynoed the 99' XX at 136.9 HP and
83.7 lbs of torque. [Busa was 99.6 lbs]
The tester's opinions were especially
interesting - especially the one who chose the XX because he didn't think he could find a place to use all the power of the Busa but then goes on to complain about the XX brakes and noting the superiority of the Busa's chassis. Interesting article and a good read. Pick up the Aug 99 issue of Sport Rider to read more.
 
Todd,

I'm not saying the XX is as fast overall as the busa, i'm just saying bone stock to bone stock it isn't much slower. I read that cycle world article, and articles like that were the reason I drove 17 hours each way to pick up a busa AFTER I had a XX.

What I am saying is that in the real world, with real production bikes,(not mag testers) the Busa doesn't dominate the 99 XX like some may think it does. One of the other mags, can't remember if it was sport rider or not, lists XX 1/4 time as 10.2 and busa at 10.34. Now I know the stock busa has clutch problems, but the stock XX doesn't, and if it [XX] wasn't a strong bike then a mag tester couldn't post those kind of stock 1/4 times. Which leads me to another question, if the busa and the XX are equal at 60ft, but the busa gets to 100mph .5 seconds quicker, how in can a stock XX ever post a quicker 1/4 over a busa? Does it catch up over 100mph? (not)

I think most agree many of the mags got busa's that were up on power over production (most mags I saw had busa's at 161 stock, while most posts on this site had stock runs from (152-158). My busa dyno'd stock at 154.5, the XX on the same dyno 139. That's not 27 hp. Cycle world had either a strong busa or a weak XX (maybe both) if the XX took .5 second longer than the busa to get from 60-100.
 
Time to go back and review magazine articles?

MOTORCYCLIST orginially tested the Busa at 10.34 sec but after replacing what they said was a toasted clutch (due to previous tests) they said the Busa ran in the nines. If you missed this part it was written an issue or two later (after the original test) when they announced that the Busa was their Motorcycle of the Year. Let me know if you need the exact month.

You make some some good points though Mslater. Believe it or not I like the XX and nearly bought one because I couldn't find a 99' Busa available for sell.(at first) I think I would have enjoyed the Honda but would have regretted not waiting for the Busa. On the other hand - I DID find a new Busa and have NOT regretted not owning an XX.


[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 15 December 1999).]
 
Here's some Busa dyno numbers we have collected:

Motorcyclist - 6/99 156.1
Motorcycle.com 157.2
2wf.com 158
Sportrider - 8/99 159.6
CycleWorld - 6/99 160.5
--------------------------------
Busa owner #1 159.3
Busa owner #2 156.4
Busa owner #3 155.2
Busa owner #4 154.7
Busa owner #5 164 stock?

These are all owners that posted their dyno numbers on a single thread on Hayabusa.org
Busa owner #5 didn't say his whether his was stock or not. .
 
I got a '98 XX, and it was my 6th honda (That's all I ever had), and I was very disappointed. First, the shitty linked brakes suck (the VFR had the revised setup; go figure). I don't know about you, but in panic situations, I brake with the front only to monitor lock-up, and that piece of crap just uses 2 pistons doing so (busa has 6) the dealer had to replace 2 out of the 3 master cylinders for leaks. And then the transmission and driveline lash were worse than any other bike I had. Non-asjustable suspension on a 10K bike? I agree with the comments above that on that level of power, both the busa and XX are the same: they have more than 99% of the drivers can handle. The only difference will be on top end. Based on the test drive, I think suzuki is superior in this class.
 
MSlater, you speak with some authority when you compare the Busa and the XX. I don't know anyone else who has both bikes. Still, your conclusions are subject to likes, dislikes and subjective interpretation, like everyone else.
I have no quarrel with the idea that the XX is superior in some ways to the Busa. Anyone who is rational and has any experience knows that Hondas are slick, smooth, bullet proof, and for general use are the best bikes in the world. Are they the most exciting, best handling,fastest or most fun? Generally, no.
In 1997 I almost bought a XX. Wrung one out for almost an hour. I came away disgusted, because of the huge hole in the mid-range and the linked brakes. I was also less than thrilled with the huge,tall,top heavy feel of the thing. Despite those things, it was smooth, fast,had more leg room, and was beautifully finished.
I knew that the flat mid-range could be sorted out, but that still left the linked brakes and the size.I realize that the Busa is not much lighter,but it carries its weight lower and has a more compact feel.The linked brakes could be removed, but the concensus was that it would be difficult and expensive.
This brings me to the main reason why I would not own a XX.The linked brakes. I am aware that they are improved this year, just as I am aware that the FI has sorted the mid-range. In '98 Honda put the new version of the linked brakes on the VFR, and I have a lot of miles on one of those. Under certain circumstances, the linked brakes can stop quicker than most standard systems. A straight up,good road,non leaning stop from 60-70mph would be one area that they would do well. At higher speeds, leaned over, or in poor traction conditions, they can kill you. That's why the Brit-bike mags complain so bitterly about them on both the XX and the VFR.They have caused many crashes. There are times when you are pushing the envelope that the application of the wrong brake can be disastrous.As an example, a couple of years ago I was at 135mph on a winding,unfamiliar road. Had trouble getting by a car, so I was hustling to catch my buddies.Just about caught up when I noticed they were slowing more than I expected for a curve. About that time I remembered that there was a nasty decreasing radius turn on the road and obviously this was it. Applied both brakes hard, when the rear started to dance I got off the back and it settled down.I stayed hard on the front, doing a series of minor stoppies ,and somehow made the turn.With linked brakes, I could not have released the rear without getting off the front, and I could not have made the turn if I released the front. I would have crashed.
Sometimes when leaned over a bit in the rain or on sand or gravel, the merest whiff of front brake is enough to send you off road. If a little rear starts a skid, it's easier to control. Linked brakes give you no choice.
Linked brakes on the Honda are the result of the same muddled thought processes that gave us the crappy clutch on the Busa. Build a missile of a bike, then screw it up with a bunch of add-ons to try to protect the incompetents, some of whom will be attracted to it. The linked brakes,have a place on touring bikes, but don't belong on state of the art sport bikes.
You may find an occasional racer who is impressed with linked brakes.Most are not. I suspect that those who like them have never learned the fine art of using the rear brake with the front at high speed on the track. It is tricky, and many racers never use the rear for that reason. I learned early on in the dirt that the front does most of the work, but that initial use of the rear shortens stopping distances.
I guess the bottom line is that if I kill or injure myself on a bike I want it to be completely my fault, not even partially the result of some good-intentioned but poorly thought out safety device intended for the inept.When you made the blanket ststement that the linked brakes on the XX were better, I might agree if we were talking about touring bikes. On sport bikes, you are dead wrong.

[This message has been edited by SlowHand (edited 16 December 1999).]
 
slow,
ok. You're right. My opinions are subjective just like any others. You're also right in that some very expert riders would prefer not to have any brake applied which they didn't apply themselves. You're also right that in certain extreme hazard situations linked brakes can hurt you more than they help. You're also right that a blanket statement than the XX's brakes are better than the busa's cannot be made, given that opinions are so subjective in nature. (I feel like I'm getting in a lesson in rhetorical debating).

But most of the mags that thrashed the XX brakes were thrashing the pre-99 model. And in a str8 line stop, I would be willing to bet that in hard numbers tests, the XX will stop faster than a busa from any speed (whether the busa rider modulates front/back or not). The expert racer I know who praised the XX's brakes praised them as an application on a street bike, not on a race bike. You're quite wrong about the dude not knowing how to use rear brake in racing situations, he has tried to show me how to ease a little rear brake in when flying over jumps on the track to make up time on everyone else who shoots airborne on those same jumps. I'm not good enough to fool around with my rear at high speed (maybe after I do American Supercamp next year, that'll change), and the only time I like to slide the rear around is when i'm on the dirt.

But all that aside, the brakes are just part of the equation of a great bike. I love my busa, and since I've dumped over $2,500 into her, the only way i'd sell her is if I decided to stay off the street and on the track (in which case rc51 takes my busa's spot). I don't regret the purchase at all. Different personality from the XX, different purpose, different soul. But the XX is a strong, well-built bike with few flaws, so I'm not just totally outraged or surprised if a mag or online tester says they'd prefer the dos equis.
 
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