Can a PC3R be used in conjuction with a tre?
- Thread starter busabrother
- Start date
How much tire spin were you getting below 4k from that TRE? 
The way I am getting the spin is this. I just lined it up straight and just got it rolling at idle in first gear. Twisted the throttle open quickly and away it spun. The spin didn't stop until I backed off the throttle. I have repeatedly produced this result since adding the TRE. Before the TRE, when I did this the bike would just grab hard and wheelie if I gave it too much throttle or had a really grippy road surface beneith it. Now as I back off the throttle it grabs and goes. It's pretty wild.
I also got a big wheel spin at 70 mph in first after the wheel started coming up. That got the heart pumping pretty fast. I never had that happen before either. My suspicion would be that the 5th gear map being used in first gear would have something to do with that although I can't prove it because I don't know precisely the difference between all of the gear maps either in fuel or in timing. It could be that the additional acceleration from the low end increase just made that easier to happen. I'm sure there will be lots of disaggreement about that as well.
I honestly am very happy with the Smart TRE. I'm glad I got that because I know there are rough idle issues with the regular one. At first I didn't think the addition of the TRE made much of a difference because the bike ran so smooth. It really was a very sneaky increase in low end power. once I noticed the RPM ranges affected, it was pretty easy to see the difference. Top end seems to be the same except for the unexplainable high RPM wheel spin which really shouldn't be explicable by the TRE, but...........this is just my experience using both.
Johncal
Johncal
I also got a big wheel spin at 70 mph in first after the wheel started coming up. That got the heart pumping pretty fast. I never had that happen before either. My suspicion would be that the 5th gear map being used in first gear would have something to do with that although I can't prove it because I don't know precisely the difference between all of the gear maps either in fuel or in timing. It could be that the additional acceleration from the low end increase just made that easier to happen. I'm sure there will be lots of disaggreement about that as well.
I honestly am very happy with the Smart TRE. I'm glad I got that because I know there are rough idle issues with the regular one. At first I didn't think the addition of the TRE made much of a difference because the bike ran so smooth. It really was a very sneaky increase in low end power. once I noticed the RPM ranges affected, it was pretty easy to see the difference. Top end seems to be the same except for the unexplainable high RPM wheel spin which really shouldn't be explicable by the TRE, but...........this is just my experience using both.
Johncal
Johncal
*sigh*
I wont even get into the timing part of it right now.... listn up.
TRE = 5th gear map.
TRE + PC = PC adjusting 5th gear map all the time. any speed, any gear.
answer this for me.......
would a 1st gear map adjusted by a powercommander do the same thing as a 5th gear map adjusted by a powercommander?
answer, no.
the TRE's forced 5th gear map is making your bike run the same air/fuel mixture at every gear.
Why would you want to do this to yourself if...
1st gear map is made for low speeds, and 5th gear map is made for high speeds!
the TRE will force your bike to run a map that is designed to run at high speeds.... with ram air.... more air.....
TRE in 1st gear = starving for air
TRE in 2nd gear = you guessed it, starving for air
need I go on?
yes. but you dont need it. unless your going to hit 190+mph.[/QUOTE]
Thanks cache.
I am still learning this topic as well but had a thought.
The TRE eliminates any timing retarding in 1st-3rd and 6th when re-mapped to 5th gear, I think everyone agrees on this? So this would mean that there is no timing retard in 4th-6th, with or without the TRE (unless 186mph is hit). So if you remove your TRE and you set your PCIIIR up with the 5 degree timing advance inside the 0-40% throttle position and 1000-4000rpm range where the factory retarding occurs, are you not also adding 5 degrees of timing advance in 4th-6th where none is needed, due to no timing retarding happening (unless you hit 186mph)? If that is the case what effect does that have on performance and engine stress?
If powercommander could create one that allowed all of the current features with the added ability to do it by gear, that would be the ticket!
JT2!
The TRE eliminates any timing retarding in 1st-3rd and 6th when re-mapped to 5th gear, I think everyone agrees on this? So this would mean that there is no timing retard in 4th-6th, with or without the TRE (unless 186mph is hit). So if you remove your TRE and you set your PCIIIR up with the 5 degree timing advance inside the 0-40% throttle position and 1000-4000rpm range where the factory retarding occurs, are you not also adding 5 degrees of timing advance in 4th-6th where none is needed, due to no timing retarding happening (unless you hit 186mph)? If that is the case what effect does that have on performance and engine stress?
If powercommander could create one that allowed all of the current features with the added ability to do it by gear, that would be the ticket!
JT2!
Cache, please don't go on. That's the biggest babbling pile of s**t I've heard yet. You've got the functions of the TRE and powercommander so screwed up it's not even funny, but your rantings are.
You keep refering to air/fuel mixtures constantly. The TRE functions are strictly timing related. The TRE can't possibly affect air/fuel ratios since the air/fuel maps are not gear related. Only the TIMING maps are gear related.
In fact, the power commander only changes timing maps GLOBALLY itself. You can not change the timing maps individually with a powercommander. If you don't believe me, dowload ALL of the related software from the powercommander site, load the maps and look at them. Then if you can grasp what you see, you will learn something. There are NO possible software adjustments based on gear selection.
Further, ALL fuel maps are adjusted via the intake air pressure sensor, throttle position sensor, and rpm sensors. The angine adjusts ALL of the maps based on these factors and either leans out or richens the mixture.
You also say :"the TRE's forced 5th gear map is making your bike run the same air/fuel mixture at every gear. Why would you want to do this to yourself if..."
The bike runs the same fuel map at any gear whether or not you have a TRE or a Powercommander installed.
Sorry bro. I hate to blast at you, but I don't appreciate the attitude.
Johncal
You keep refering to air/fuel mixtures constantly. The TRE functions are strictly timing related. The TRE can't possibly affect air/fuel ratios since the air/fuel maps are not gear related. Only the TIMING maps are gear related.
In fact, the power commander only changes timing maps GLOBALLY itself. You can not change the timing maps individually with a powercommander. If you don't believe me, dowload ALL of the related software from the powercommander site, load the maps and look at them. Then if you can grasp what you see, you will learn something. There are NO possible software adjustments based on gear selection.
Further, ALL fuel maps are adjusted via the intake air pressure sensor, throttle position sensor, and rpm sensors. The angine adjusts ALL of the maps based on these factors and either leans out or richens the mixture.
You also say :"the TRE's forced 5th gear map is making your bike run the same air/fuel mixture at every gear. Why would you want to do this to yourself if..."
The bike runs the same fuel map at any gear whether or not you have a TRE or a Powercommander installed.
Sorry bro. I hate to blast at you, but I don't appreciate the attitude.
Johncal
You are absolutely right. And if the PC3r could change the timing maps based on gear selection you could indeed eliminate the TRE, but alas no possibility at this point.
In fact, there is not even a "timing retard" in 6th gear, but rather a down limited RPM fuel cut off.
johncal
So, you think timing has no effect on the air/fuel ratio?
That's correct. The air/fuel ratio is determined by the computer based on a lot of factors and sensors, but not the timing. The timing simply varies to ignite the pre-determined air/fuel mixture at the proper TIME based on RPM, load, etc.
As engine speed increases, the ignition timing BTDC (before top dead center) usually increases as well. This because as the pistons move faster, you try to time the exploding air/fuel mixture for the best push down on the cylinder. Since the air/fuel mixture always takes the same amount of time to burn, as the pistons move quicker you have to start the burn sooner to get the maximum push at the top.
That is why when you run a lot of ignition advance, you need to be careful of the fuel you use. Premium grade burns slower and more consistantly than regular. That means you need to run a little more advance than with regular to take full advantage of premiums burn qualities.
If you run too much advance with regular which burns much more quickly, you get pinging because the fuel mixture is "exploding" way before the piston gets to the top. In fact it actually starts to push BACK on the piston creating the pinging sound you hear and a loss of power.
The air/fuel maps are adjusted to always keep the near exact theoretical ratio needed for proper combustion. There are so many factors that determine this, it is an article all in itself.
If you are really interested in how all of this works on the 'Busa, I would recommend getting a big cup of coffee, put of the jammies and read the service manual. All of these functions for both the fuel and ignition systems are explained in great detail.
johncal
As engine speed increases, the ignition timing BTDC (before top dead center) usually increases as well. This because as the pistons move faster, you try to time the exploding air/fuel mixture for the best push down on the cylinder. Since the air/fuel mixture always takes the same amount of time to burn, as the pistons move quicker you have to start the burn sooner to get the maximum push at the top.
That is why when you run a lot of ignition advance, you need to be careful of the fuel you use. Premium grade burns slower and more consistantly than regular. That means you need to run a little more advance than with regular to take full advantage of premiums burn qualities.
If you run too much advance with regular which burns much more quickly, you get pinging because the fuel mixture is "exploding" way before the piston gets to the top. In fact it actually starts to push BACK on the piston creating the pinging sound you hear and a loss of power.
The air/fuel maps are adjusted to always keep the near exact theoretical ratio needed for proper combustion. There are so many factors that determine this, it is an article all in itself.
If you are really interested in how all of this works on the 'Busa, I would recommend getting a big cup of coffee, put of the jammies and read the service manual. All of these functions for both the fuel and ignition systems are explained in great detail.
johncal
I'm convinced that it's a waste of money for anything other than removing the top end limit.
I'm also convinced that it's a waste of time arguing this point with someone that bases their claim of being right on the mod "seeming" to work and SOTP meter readings.
You can post your theories on the fuel and timing of the busa 'puter all you want. I still say that without hard numbers you're just blowing smoke. So, do you have anything to base your "rantings" on besides your understanding of the service manual? If not, I don't think you're in a position to call anyone else's take on the matter a pile of shiot. I think you're wrong here, but since I don't have any basis for my opinion I won't call your *OPINION* shiot!
This is headed nowhere fast. I'm out...
<!--EDIT|BulletTrain
Reason for Edit: None given...|1067829439 -->
I'm also convinced that it's a waste of time arguing this point with someone that bases their claim of being right on the mod "seeming" to work and SOTP meter readings.
You can post your theories on the fuel and timing of the busa 'puter all you want. I still say that without hard numbers you're just blowing smoke. So, do you have anything to base your "rantings" on besides your understanding of the service manual? If not, I don't think you're in a position to call anyone else's take on the matter a pile of shiot. I think you're wrong here, but since I don't have any basis for my opinion I won't call your *OPINION* shiot!
This is headed nowhere fast. I'm out...
<!--EDIT|BulletTrain
Reason for Edit: None given...|1067829439 -->
Well, I'm out of here as well. I'm going to go talk to my wall. I'll probably get a better response.
If you guys want to base your responses on emotions rather than facts, be my guest. I'll stick to the facts.
If there are any Factory trained Suzuki mechanics around here, I'd surely love to hear from them.
Johncal
If you guys want to base your responses on emotions rather than facts, be my guest. I'll stick to the facts.
If there are any Factory trained Suzuki mechanics around here, I'd surely love to hear from them.
Johncal
Johnnycheese
Registered
Quote by Johncal...Further, ALL fuel maps are adjusted via the intake air pressure sensor, throttle position sensor, and rpm sensors. The angine adjusts ALL of the maps based on these factors and either leans out or richens the mixture.
Nope you are incorrect get your facts straight
Nope you are incorrect get your facts straight
Well, Johnnycheese is exactly that. A factory trained service tech with several years at dealerships before he hung his own shingle. As I replied early on in the thread, he has recommended elsewhere a switchable TRE if you just have to have one with the PC, and only turning it on for runs that hit the speed restriction. If I could find the thread I'd point you to it. I guess he ain't exactly the Suzuki trained tech you wanted, huh?
By the way, you don't have FACTS that back up your claims that there is a measureable power increase using a TRE with the PC. You have seat of the pants observations that throttle response and/or driveability may be changed. If you insist that there is a power advantage to using the TRE in combo with the PC then back it up with dyno numbers which could be considered facts.
I hope you don't expect to be able to just assert your opinions here as fact and not have the integrity of these so called facts questioned. If you contend that your opinions are fact, then back them up with proof. If you're not willing to go that far with it then your argument is worthless from the beginning. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that you'll have to prove your assertions before everyone here will just gobble them up as facts.
I think what you're probably observing is "wishpower" instead of horsepower. You bougth the TRE wishing it would work (as in increased power) so you felt it working. Much like the placebo effect in medicine. Sugar pills cure symptoms, etc...
Until you, or someone else posts dyno sheets with numbers to back up your claims of power increases large enough to create traction problems *directly related to the TRE* then you are basing your argument on anything but facts, like it or not. Your comment about everyone else basing their argument on things other than facts is indeed the pot calling the kettle black.
Have a good talk with your wall. Maybe it will just accept your opinions as fact and not question you. Seems you don't take questions of your opinions very well.
Hey johncal, there's the Suzuki trained tech you requested! Hehehehehehe... It wouldn't be quite so much fun to see you have your proverbial arse handed back to you by a real tuner on this if you hadn't gotten such an attitude with cache. 
We'll wait for you at the timing booth! Buhbye.
Johnnycheese
Registered
No I said you are incorrect the PC3 does not use sensors to make a map.
Similar threads
