Can you counter a high-side w/a burnout?
- Thread starter BowDown
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if you had the reaction times of a humming bird!
high sides usually happen so fast that you really have no time to react or you are jerked so violently that any reaaction time u may of had is gone. i see many high sides saved watching racing, but i would say that more times than not you really have no chance at saving much less reacting to a good high side... just my .02....
Is this the question you are asking? If you find the bike traveling sidways, can you save it by dumping the clutch and initiating a burnout?
I doubt it would help, not enough time to execute the maneuver. It would be best not getting there in the first place.
High sides usually come from a rear brake lock up. The rear steps out of alignment with the path of travel. In a panic the rider will most often release the rear brake when it is stepped out too far. It regains traction and tires then try to align themselves again. The resulting force usually twists the bike hard enough to push the upper part of the bike in the direction the rear was stepped out. This usually puts the rider over the bike in the same direction.
You teach beginners to keep on the brake until it is stopped. Worst case the bike might low side resulting in much less sever consequences than a low side. A more advanced rider would be able to find the point where the bike is straight enough to be able to slowly release it where they could recover.
The above would apply to good surface conditions. If in gravel, dirt, rain etc you chould be able to release and recover.
If it is kicked out under acceleration (burnout etc) a quick release of the throttle could cause the same issue. Slightly reducing power can usually save it. I saved one at the drag strip near the 330’ marker that had quite a few people wondering……including myself!
I doubt it would help, not enough time to execute the maneuver. It would be best not getting there in the first place.
High sides usually come from a rear brake lock up. The rear steps out of alignment with the path of travel. In a panic the rider will most often release the rear brake when it is stepped out too far. It regains traction and tires then try to align themselves again. The resulting force usually twists the bike hard enough to push the upper part of the bike in the direction the rear was stepped out. This usually puts the rider over the bike in the same direction.
You teach beginners to keep on the brake until it is stopped. Worst case the bike might low side resulting in much less sever consequences than a low side. A more advanced rider would be able to find the point where the bike is straight enough to be able to slowly release it where they could recover.
The above would apply to good surface conditions. If in gravel, dirt, rain etc you chould be able to release and recover.
If it is kicked out under acceleration (burnout etc) a quick release of the throttle could cause the same issue. Slightly reducing power can usually save it. I saved one at the drag strip near the 330’ marker that had quite a few people wondering……including myself!
Nekosohana
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I am gonna say no. There is a really good breakdown of the mechanics of a highside here.
Basically, the way I understood a high side is that the line that the bike makes (Rw-->Fw---road) is not the same straight line that you have in a normal ride path. Whatever the right word for it is, accelerant force, kinetic energy, centrifugal force, whatever... is basically not moving on the same line as the bike. Similar to when you whip up a jet ski, the force of it carries you off? The force of your energy is moving in a line with the bike. Once your slide stops, traction begins. High sides occur when the front wheel is not in line with the bikes motion. As soon as the traction hits, instead of getting normal traction (like you would in a roll), you get 100% traction because the wheel is either parallell or close to parallell with the motion of the bike (obviously if parallel is 100% then less than parallel will transfer less than 100% traction). Front wheel stops completely and the motion has to go somewhere... namely up. The energy from the bike is transferred through the framework and becomes like an inverse pendilum... and you become a "manapault".
Another way to look at this, is the same concept that works a stoppie works a high side. But instead of having brake control like you do in a stoppie where you can alter the level of force being transfered to the back of the bike, you get it all in one quick motion.
At least this is how I see it in my head. The guy in the link explained it better than I did, and his way may actually be right, but I know what my 350lb brother explained to me when his Bandit1200s bucked him over and that explination works for me.
In answer to your final question, the answer is really ... probably not. I have seen video of racing pros pick up a tankslapper and not gain air at the same time, but even most of them will have a little flight time in their careers. I personally have locked my rear wheel a few times, and never dumped it, due to a bit of fortune in the fact that my rear tires never overslid the plane of movement.
Basically, the way I understood a high side is that the line that the bike makes (Rw-->Fw---road) is not the same straight line that you have in a normal ride path. Whatever the right word for it is, accelerant force, kinetic energy, centrifugal force, whatever... is basically not moving on the same line as the bike. Similar to when you whip up a jet ski, the force of it carries you off? The force of your energy is moving in a line with the bike. Once your slide stops, traction begins. High sides occur when the front wheel is not in line with the bikes motion. As soon as the traction hits, instead of getting normal traction (like you would in a roll), you get 100% traction because the wheel is either parallell or close to parallell with the motion of the bike (obviously if parallel is 100% then less than parallel will transfer less than 100% traction). Front wheel stops completely and the motion has to go somewhere... namely up. The energy from the bike is transferred through the framework and becomes like an inverse pendilum... and you become a "manapault".
Another way to look at this, is the same concept that works a stoppie works a high side. But instead of having brake control like you do in a stoppie where you can alter the level of force being transfered to the back of the bike, you get it all in one quick motion.
At least this is how I see it in my head. The guy in the link explained it better than I did, and his way may actually be right, but I know what my 350lb brother explained to me when his Bandit1200s bucked him over and that explination works for me.
In answer to your final question, the answer is really ... probably not. I have seen video of racing pros pick up a tankslapper and not gain air at the same time, but even most of them will have a little flight time in their careers. I personally have locked my rear wheel a few times, and never dumped it, due to a bit of fortune in the fact that my rear tires never overslid the plane of movement.
Nice write up, but it does not mention losing traction from spinning the tire. That little gif looks like thats what started the crash, not rear brake. So, if your in a 'power slide', chopping the throttle can cause a high side. Throttle control however, can save it.
Rear brake, this always gets me. On a sport bike, its only good for 2 things. One, to hold you on a hill when stopped. Second, to help with turn in if your a pro racer. I don't mess with the rear brake to help with turn in. I ain't that good.
Rear brake, this always gets me. On a sport bike, its only good for 2 things. One, to hold you on a hill when stopped. Second, to help with turn in if your a pro racer. I don't mess with the rear brake to help with turn in. I ain't that good.
Nekosohana
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Or if you are me, they like to melt. Mine is shredded and I need to replace it, but since Tim (pashnit) mentioned the same thing, I am going to wait and just buy wave rotors for front and rear and replace my rear lines with braided.(JuiceSC @ Sep. 28 2007,06:52) Nice write up, but it does not mention losing traction from spinning the tire. That little gif looks like thats what started the crash, not rear brake. So, if your in a 'power slide', chopping the throttle can cause a high side. Throttle control however, can save it.
Rear brake, this always gets me. On a sport bike, its only good for 2 things. One, to hold you on a hill when stopped. Second, to help with turn in if your a pro racer. I don't mess with the rear brake to help with turn in. I ain't that good.
I have everything but the rotors, so I will probably just do it this "winter".
Nekosohana
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The MSF class teaches a 70/30 useage for the front/rear brake. I will use my brake through a turn to keep the bike from diving more than I would prefer.
Nekosohana
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Do you have the braided lines on your rear brake yet? I have my front lines done, but not the rear, and the difference is night and day.
I would guess (since I don't know) that if you swapped to the braided rear you would see a significant difference.
Ummm not they don't or they mis-quoted what they should be teaching you(Nekosohana @ Sep. 28 2007,10:50)The MSF class teaches a 70/30 useage for the front/rear brake. .(BowDown @ Sep. 28 2007,08) My rear brake sucks. If I used it to try and slow me down it would take about 4x's as long as the front brake. This is going normal speed.
The teach you that the front brake has 70% of the stopping power....OR MORE.
On a modern sport bike it will be close to 95%.
Nekosohana
Registered
I see!(Professor @ Sep. 28 2007,09:04)Ummm not they don't or they mis-quoted what they should be teaching you(Nekosohana @ Sep. 28 2007,10:50)The MSF class teaches a 70/30 useage for the front/rear brake. .(BowDown @ Sep. 28 2007,08) My rear brake sucks. If I used it to try and slow me down it would take about 4x's as long as the front brake. This is going normal speed.
The teach you that the front brake has 70% of the stopping power....OR MORE.
On a modern sport bike it will be close to 95%.
BowDown
Registered
Ya, it feels that way too.(Professor @ Sep. 28 2007,12:04)Ummm not they don't or they mis-quoted what they should be teaching you(Nekosohana @ Sep. 28 2007,10:50)The MSF class teaches a 70/30 useage for the front/rear brake. .(BowDown @ Sep. 28 2007,08) My rear brake sucks. If I used it to try and slow me down it would take about 4x's as long as the front brake. This is going normal speed.
The teach you that the front brake has 70% of the stopping power....OR MORE.
On a modern sport bike it will be close to 95%.
IG.
Registered
No one addresses the fundamental problem here. Knowing what to do is one thing, but actually doing it when it happens is a completely different thing.
Never mind the rear brake. Shouldn't be used for braking anyway.
If the rear steps out, the right reaction would be...... to ignore it and do nothing as if nothing bad is happening. The rear steps out just the right amount so everything stays balanced, the lean angle is automatically reduced, and the next step the rear regains traction by itself, and gently goes back in line with the front. OK, you can do it a bit quicker if you just ease a tad on the throttle. And of course, if you twisted it like there is no tomorrow, no amount of control is gonna save you.
Now the real question is how do you make sure that when unpredictable slide happens, you will continue without blinking and without panicking, and pretty much ignore the whole thing. You gotta hammer it into your head and into your reflexes. Just imagine yourself in slow motion going through this, and what happens and what you are doing. Do it many times, until you are sweating, that's how real it feels. So, when the time comes, you have an excellent chance of doing the right thing. And if you are wondering I've done with both front (in the wet) and rear - just a couple of times though.
The most difficult actions in controlling a motorcycle - closing the throttle slowly, and releasing a brake slowly - both overlooked by many riders.
Never mind the rear brake. Shouldn't be used for braking anyway.
If the rear steps out, the right reaction would be...... to ignore it and do nothing as if nothing bad is happening. The rear steps out just the right amount so everything stays balanced, the lean angle is automatically reduced, and the next step the rear regains traction by itself, and gently goes back in line with the front. OK, you can do it a bit quicker if you just ease a tad on the throttle. And of course, if you twisted it like there is no tomorrow, no amount of control is gonna save you.
Now the real question is how do you make sure that when unpredictable slide happens, you will continue without blinking and without panicking, and pretty much ignore the whole thing. You gotta hammer it into your head and into your reflexes. Just imagine yourself in slow motion going through this, and what happens and what you are doing. Do it many times, until you are sweating, that's how real it feels. So, when the time comes, you have an excellent chance of doing the right thing. And if you are wondering I've done with both front (in the wet) and rear - just a couple of times though.
The most difficult actions in controlling a motorcycle - closing the throttle slowly, and releasing a brake slowly - both overlooked by many riders.
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