DragBike.com ZX-12

[Gixx1300R]

Actually the Busa has 185 horsepower at the crank if you count the ram air the way Kawasaki did with the ZX12(rumor).The GSX1300R has a proven 175 horsepower at the crank(not including the ramair).The ZX12 and the Hayabusa weigh about the same but the ZX12 comes with a single muffler on it's Titanium exhaust while the Busa has two(Hmmm,sort of makes you wonder).The Frontal area of the ZX12 is very simular to the Blackbird.I'm just guessing but I believe the ZX12's topend speed will be 189 or 190 and run mid high 9.90s in the 1/4 mile.Kawis have always beed good bikes to drag race but their clutches suck.

 

[OB_ducmanic]

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/zx12lside.jpg

Trip on this green meanie pic-
ducmanic

 

[OB_Animal]

DRAGBIKE_dot_COM, guess you meant Paris instead of Milan, right?

Will be at Paris show tomorrow (Oct. 1st) so should be able to see 1 or 2 of the 4 pre-prod models myself there.

Might also get to see some nice French stuff for the Busa and will definitely visit the girl from Yosh Japan that does Overseas sales for them and promised me they would debut a lot of 'Busa stuff there.

Will report anything worthwile maybe Sunday.

 

[OB_GSXRTURBO1]

ZX12, CBXChris is correct. A flat piston has superior flame travel, which means you can run less advance, which also means the engine is more efficient. A hemi piston is just in the way of flame travel, which is why all top fuel and blown alcohol motors use 2 spark plugs per cylinder. Even with a twin plug motor the advance is set high. However, in fairness to the "Kawasaki ad" it was mentioned that the engine was of a SEMI-hemi design, which is a world of difference. I cannot imagine a four valve hemi design, but I can imagine a 4 valve semi-hemi one. As mentioned by Maui, the rod length will be very telling, as a longer rod keeps the piston more square in the bore and stays longer at the top of the stroke. Honda has been keen on maintaining certain rod ratios, and they make a tremendous amount of power out of the box (per liter).

 

[OB_ZX-12]

This is an excellent book and it's author is who you are arguing with. I am a nit-whit but according you him your assessment would be considered a gross generalization of piston design .

As for the design it is a "modified petroof and semi-hemi". I never stated that this was a pure hemi design. The book below is great though Ganesan gets into some sick theories and he discusses modern engine developments and he treats the total picture of engine development. I use this book to clarify issues because I am not the brightest bulb I usually have to read and re-read his paragraphs but eventually I learn.

Internal Combustion Engines
V. Ganesan, Hardcover, 540 pages
Published by McGraw Hill 1995
ISBN: 007462122X
Booknews says of this book, in 1996:
A comprehensive treatment of the basic principles and applications of internal combustion engines, for use as an undergraduate or graduate engineering textbook or professional reference. Among the topics are current measurement and testing techniques involving computers, mathematical modeling, and electronic instrumentation; the impact on engine design of the competitive world market, as well as environmental and fuel-economy standards; and descriptions of fuels, carburation, injection, engine friction, performance parameters, and two-stroke engines. SI units are used throughout. Annotation copyright Book News, Inc. Portland, Or.

 

[OB_maui]

ZX

I'm sure that's a great book, but flame front technology is very critical to making horsepower. This is the primary reason that you see the use of flat top pistons in modern racing engines. We still use domes to get compression, but flame front is a MAJOR concern. You need to burn up all that good stuff in there to make power. All the guy's I know in NHRA that haul ass are on this issue. You might try looking through your book again for "flame travel", and see what it says. If there is no mention of flame travel, you can do your own experiment.

A) soak the book in gas
B) light it on fire
C) watch it burn

As far as not being the brightest bulb, you bring up good stuff that makes for interesting reading. I always look forward to your posts (except when I don't).

 

[OB_sc2641]

Marty, there is no way the zx-12 will kill a hayabusa.If it's any faster at all, it will be by a very small margin. They're the same weight, about the same power, but the hayabusa has more torque and a longer wheelbase. Nothing in the near future will raise the performance standard as much as the hayabusa did.

 

[OB_Earl]

Finally, somebody who tells it like it will be. I think the winner will be the best rider and who gets on it first. It will not be the bar-raiser the hayabusa is. I know it will not have the torque curve of the bus---it can't with that short stroke. High winder, peaky top end. My prediction

 

[OB_cbxchris]

Not arguing that stock to stock that the kawa may be faster but I still think the busa will be a better engine for after market parts...I don`t intend to let a stock kawa out run me...

 

[OB_ZX-12]

I looked in my book (I was going to try the experiment you mentioned but my girlfriend came home and told me no gasoline in the living room). You are talking about drag racing you know 40 hours a week to prep your engine for a weekend then a tear down. I am talking about day in day out reliability that is capable of pushing a bike and any nit wit who has around 10k through the air at speeds in excess of 190mph all day long on pump gas.

P.S. The book talks about flame travel but the ability to dissapate that heat is just as important if you want usable power. File under Semi-hemi/pent.

[This message has been edited by ZX-12 (edited 30 September 1999).]

 

[OB_turbo1300]

Marty, my busa weighs in at 479 full of fuel and it makes 202.5 hp on a dyno 150. I weighed it at a track in FL about a month ago. I also was reading in Cycle World last night that the zx-12 will make only 150-160 hp just like the busa. Those were the direct words of the mag. who did a feature on it. So I don't see how it is going to blow the doors off of the busa.

[This message has been edited by turbo1300 (edited 30 September 1999).]

 

[OB_ZX-12]

cbxchris:

You said "the best combustion chamber has no dome on the piston and of a flat design" says who? Maybe they should stop advancing combustion chamber/piston technology because there is only one answer?

As for the weight issue.....I am not defending the Kawi but the formula for weight and speed in the aftermarket which is how Turbo1300 is getting his 479lbs over 200hp is simple. HP improvements = $$$$$$$$ WEIGHT SAVINGS = $$$$$$$$$$ The possibilities are as limitless as the amount of cash you have. As for CW they like all of us (myself included) are talking out of their asses. Everyone thus far has said the final production model is not even done yet......

 

[OB_Dyno_Mark]

Marty,

Just hang tight... Last I heard, you were bringing in to us. We'll see what we can do with your Sato pipe?

The new 12R does sound promising though!!!

I'll post dyno numbers after we test it...

Dyno_Mark

 

[OB_Buffalo]

Actually it is good to see that Kawasaki has built the thing finally. It doesn't make me want to get rid of my Busa. I love the this bike and I'll be happy to test it against the ZX12 as soon as one shows up on the street. If it wins so be it, I'll just have to adjust the Hayabusa till it keeps up. As far as the 12 having more hp than any other bike in it's class. I would certainly hope it can outdo a 1200 Sportster with its 110 mph top speed. I mean if ya can't whup up on the ol Webly/Vickers 60/40 yer in trouble right?

 

[Guest]

Dragbike_dot_com

First of all thanks for the info on the ZX-12 very illuminating indeed.

Call Honda of Hollywood 323-466-7191 or 800-371-3718 and ask for Motorcycle service. They service all the japanese bikes except Yamaha. They covered it under warranty, since it was cutting out. Now, mine runs sweet and way better than new. Hope it helps.

Good luck

Walt

 

[OB_maui]

ZX Can you summarize what he said about heat transfer?

Also, Tell your girl friend she should start carrying extra gas in her purse. My wife does this in old beer bottles with a rag stuffed in the end to keep the fuel inside. Very handy.

As Far as domed pistons being heavier than flat tops, The slugs I have been using are forged high silicon pistons with a hollow dome. Very light. Dome thickness is kept to about .200". Which is a minimum dimension. Also tool strength lightweight wrist pins can further reduce the load.

 

[OB_ZX-12]

I will post a summation of heat transferrance tommorrow in the afternoon cause I have a ton of homework. And maybe you can give me a shot of brains on setting fuel air ratios in blowers.

The gas is a good idea. She is getting really sick of carrying the blowtorch.

 

[OB_maui]

Flame front technology is important in all engines. Not just drag racing. I think the Nascar guys run flat tops in some of their motors. 8000 rpm four 3 or 4 hours is damn respectable. Domed pistons don't affect longevity any more than flat tops. That 's not the point, Flame travel is affected by an object or shape in its path. Weather you have flat tops or domes, flame travel is important. The "ideal " combustion chamber doesn't exist. Every engine has to make compromises to function, spark plus, valves, unruly pistons, port angle, all contribute to this. There's a bigger picture here.

I'm sure the guy who wrote your book is a fine industrial engineer. Maybe a DNQ as a racer though (?). Still, the book sounds like it has good info. Maybe I'll zap the ISBN to amazon. Is it that good of a book? What else does it cover? Could you post a couple of chapters for me?

 

[OB_GSXRTURBO1]

Another thing to consider is that domed pistons are usually heavier by design.

 

[OB_ZX-12]

Maui:

The big picture is exactly what I am saying. Their is no ideal there are trends in different disciplines ie NHRA vs NASCAR vs street legal motorcycles. Heat buildiup in the chamber can affect flame travel as well as octane level of the fuel as well as 50 other variables. He basically starts out on the molecular level by examining heat tranference then goes from there it is sort of a walk before you run.

I need to find a scanner my girlfriend has one at work but she doesn't know how to use it and mine is broken. I will send you some stuff about this though. My friend was telling me about another book that is even better I will have more info on it soon.