Dyno'd and Tuned today...

It amazes me at how many times a person can contradict themselves in one post... I could go on, but why
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https://www.hayabusa.org/forums/?act=ST;f=77;t=94211;hl=

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Well, I think I may be done for now whether I like it or not...???

Call for me to be banned or whatever... You know what you are and I can look at myself in the mirror in the morning...

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107F during the dyno?  What weight of oil was you running...I've yet to see one run that much HP for the mods listed.

Mike
Looks like the runs were made in STD and not corrected... that would explaine the higher numbers...

But I could be mistaken...
damm some people need to learn before they post.
STD IS CORRECTED
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who is this donkeys a(*...
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You should take some of your own advice...  
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that maybe the case on your dyno.... But on the DynoJet I use its STD stands for uncorrected and SAE is just one type of adding in correction to the run...  
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talk about panties in a bunch LOL
Hahahahaha
Moreboost
you are still opening your mouth and proving my point.
there is SAE , STD, DIN, ECC ALL ARE CORRECTED

then there is UNCORRECTED.

so how long have you been using a dyno again?
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Here is some info for those that want some info on testing standards. Part of the reason we spent 55K on a climate controlled dyno room with a 17 to 1 air exchange. Its not rocket science as some attempt to make it.
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What is Corrected Horsepower?

We have all seen and made claims of an engine's horsepower. However, this stated horsepower is almost never what the engine actually made for power. How can that be? Most of the stated horsepower numbers are "Corrected" values. The correction standards were developed to discount the observed horsepower readings taken at different locations and weather conditions. It is obvious that an engine builder in Colorado could not produce as much horsepower as a shop at sea level. There is just less oxygen for the engine to burn at the higher altitude. What are less obvious are the other weather condition effects on the engine. So in order to compensate for this all advertised horsepower is "corrected" to several different industry standards.

Most of you know about Atmospheric Correction Factors that are used to compare an engines power output for one day or location to another. However, these factors can be rather confusing and even deceptive. Everybody seems to declare there engine's horsepower as "etched in stone" number, however we also know that the engine will make very different power on different days. Excluding other factors like engine temperature and quality of fuel used, the engine output is very dependant on the amount of oxygen in the air. So the only way to compare an engine's horsepower is to correct the output on a given day to some standard.

The most common are the SAE standards. The older J607 standard considers that the engine was run on a 60°F day with 0% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.92 in-Hg or the newer SAE J1349 standard of 77°F (25°C) day with 0% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.234 in-Hg (99 KPa). Also the ECE standard is the same as the SAE J1349, but does not use mechanical efficiency in the calculations. The DIN standard which corrects to 68°F (20° C) day with 0% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.92 in-Hg (101.3 KPa) and the JIS standard corrects 77°F (25° C) day with 0% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.234 in-Hg (99 KPa), but uses different correction curves than the others (as a substitution for using mechanical efficiency factors). Further, we have the J1995 corrects 77°F (25° C) day with 0% humidity and a barometric pressure of 29.53 in-Hg (100 KPa).

Since very few engines are actually run in these conditions we apply these correction factors so that it is possible to compare the results taken on different days. First lets just look at the weather correction, we will see the second section dealing with mechanical efficiency later. Consider if you take a baseline run of a normally aspirated four stroke V-8 engine on a sultry day in late August, say 85°F and 85% humidity and 28.85 in-Hg and the engine produced 400 Hp. Then after you finished making all your modifications you retest the engine in late September when it is 55°F and 35% humidity and 30.10 in-Hg, the engine now makes 442 Hp. That's almost an 11 percent increase in Hp, however the engine is actually producing the exact same amount of horsepower according to the J607 correction values of 400 Hp * 1.1005 ≈ 440 Hp and 442 * 0.994 ≈ 440 Hp. If you had retested the engine in the same weather conditions it would have made 400 Hp again.

There are many different correction "Standards" out there, but here is the SAE J1349 formula:



cf is the final correction factor multiplier
Pd is the pressure of dry air in hPa
(990 hPA = 99 kPa)
Tc is the air's temperature in degrees Celsius

One more source of confusion about the SAE J1349 is all the different values quoted for the Barometric Pressure in inches of Mercury. If you search around you will find the base values are different. Some will quote 29.234 in-Hg and others 29.318 and others 29.380. How can they all be correct? Well the calculations are done in KPa or millibars. These units are all true pressures, however inches of mercury, although considered a pressure unit, changes with temperature. This is because mercury expands as it gets warmer. Therefore 99 KPa at 32°F is 29.234 in-Hg and 99 KPa at 60°F is 29.318 in-Hg.

Now this may sound confusing, but these formulas were developed to attempt to allow standardize advertised hp ratings and comparisons. The formulas are based on the amount of oxygen that is found in the air that the engine is breathing. The greater oxygen the more fuel can be burned and thus more horsepower. However, these formulas are not perfect. They were developed empirically and are a good approximation for the variables of humidity, temperature, and absolute pressure. However, internal combustion engines develop power on many other variables and although it is possible to have the same correction factor at high temperature and pressure as low temperature and pressure, the engine will make different power. The wetting effect and temperature differences are not perfectly compensated for. This gives rise to the "purist" touting that all engines must be tested at the same atmospheric conditions or else the results are useless. In a prefect world this would be true, but this would be ludicrous. The cost of building an environmentally standardized test cell is well beyond the capabilities and cost of even large OEM companies and would give rise to even more deception in horsepower advertising.

Now lets consider the next effect on the SAE standard that some other industrial standards do not include, the "Mechanical Efficiency" of the engine. Which is basically the amount of energy the engine got from the fuel versus how much energy actually was produced at the flywheel. This is a measure that includes the frictional torque, viscous effect, etc. required to rotate the engine. If we take the SAE standard that a four stroke normally aspirated engine consumes 15% of its' developed horsepower to rotate the engine. This is another huge point of debate, but it does make sense. If we want to correct the observed horsepower to a standard condition, it make sense that the friction required to rotate the engine does not change with added oxygen in the air. So in the last example the engine produce 400 Hp on that hot August day. This time consider the SAE J1349 correction standard which has a correction factor of 1.0634. According to the SAE 15% standard it took 70.58 Hp (400 / 0.85 "“ 400 = 70.58) to overcome the friction from ring drag, bearings, valve train, etc. Since this is a constant value no matter where the dyno test was taken, we know that the energy produced by the engine was actually 400 + 70.58 = 470.58 Hp. Now if we want to compensate for the atmospheric condition then we should use the amount of energy that the engine got from the fuel supply. So we take the 470.58 Hp * 1.0634 = 500.42 and then subtract out the constant Hp reading of 70.58. 500.42 "“ 70.58 ≈ 430 Hp.

Now it does make sense that the frictional torque is almost constant no matter how much oxygen was in the air, but the SAE flat rate 15% does not accurately cover all internal combustion engines. It is a compromise. In the example above we used a normally aspirated 4 stroke V-8 engine, but what if it were a two stroke V-8 outboard engine. It is quite obvious that the two stroke has much less frictional drag. It has no camshaft, timing chain, valves and springs, oil in the crankcase, etc. Comparing these two engines with the same 15% friction losses does not work. That is why some higher end dynoing software calculate the friction losses on many different variables, like the displacement, stroke for piston speed, type of aspiration, number of strokes, type of fuel, and RPM. Using this information will yield much greater accuracy in calculating a mechanical efficiency and therefore a much greater accuracy for in house comparisons between pulls. However, in order to advertise the value as SAE J1349 compliant you must usually use the SAE mechanical efficiency number.

Another way to get accurate mechanical efficiency is to use a dyno that can "motor" the engine, like an AC dyno. Just measure the amount of power it takes to drive the engine and then use those values for your own custom mechanical efficiency. Once again though, you will need a high-end software package that will easily allow you to use the new efficiency or else you will be doing a lot of tedious and time-consuming hand calculations. But once again, this solution is not perfect either. Many will argue correctly that motoring the engine is not the same because there was no heat, bearing loads, metal deformation, etc.

Some companies who are working on a particular engine family will actually test the same engine under many different conditions and develop their own correction table. To these companies it is vital to know how their engines will perform under specific varying conditions. Consider snowmobiles that will operate at many different altitudes and temperatures, but they can pretty much discount the effects of humidity because the engine will almost always operate at temperatures below freezing. However, it is critical that their engines perform well at extremely different barometric pressures. An exhaust designed to run at sea level will not perform well at all in the mountains. Further, the opposite is true for marine engines. These engines are run most often at sea level, warm temperatures, and high humidity. Or a waste gated turbo engine that is pretty much impervious to even large barometric pressure changes. Thus the one size fits all SAE approach does not work well.

The debate over the validity of correction factors still lingers on, but they are the only way to make realistic comparison of your engines on different days. There are, and always will be, unscrupulous competitors who advertise inflated horsepower gains by manipulating the correction factors, however they are eventually exposed at the races where it counts to the customer. In order to perform accurate and credible results you must use some factors and try to conduct your tests under "similar" test conditions. In fact, SAE requires that the corrections be less than ± 7%. So in the example above we would not be allowed to use the STD or standard J607 SAE factor of 1.1005 because it is correcting by more than 10%, however the SAE J1349 factor of 1.0634 could just barely be used.

Now that the importance of these correction factors is known they must be entered accurately for your test be to considered valid. Although the formulas look complicated you don't really have to know them, because any dynoing software worth using will do it for you based on the three environmental variables of temperature, humidity, and absolute barometric pressure. Note that you must enter the absolute barometric pressure NOT the relative pressure based on altitude, this can also be a source of confusion. Unless you are at sea level the barometric pressure that the weatherman states has been altitude corrected and you must use the actual pressure. Once again, most dynoing software will be able to do the conversion for you. Also be sure to enter these values at the beginning of the test after the dyno cell has come up to a stable temperature. Failure to do this will show lower horsepower than your engine actually made. Once again you should consider finding a dyno that will automatically enter these values for you, because many times you will forget to write them down and that will invalidate the dyno pull that you just made and could even lead you to discounting a modification that did actually increase the power of you engine. Also, for advanced software that use more realistic mechanical efficiency you must enter the required information about the engine, such as bore, stroke, number of piston, type of engine, etc.

It is also important that you use the same correction method for all testing and that your customer is shown the correction method used to calculate the horsepower. The customer may not understand all that went into the horsepower reading, but at least you will know that service was provided correctly and honestly. When considering a dyno you should research how the companies allow you to do your corrections. It may not be important now to be able to enter custom correct factor or even enter any at all, but it most likely will be later on down the road.
 
Well, I think I may be done for now whether I like it or not...???

      Call for me to be banned or whatever... You know what you are and I can look at myself in the mirror in the morning...

       
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Dude, you got some serious issues to be getting that upset over a bike. You sound like some squid who bases his manhood on what kind of bike he has. As far as being able to look myself in the mirror? Are you serious? Hmmm 2 tours in Iraq, and 2 Bronze Stars, among other things that you've only seen on TV, yeah I can look at myself in the morning.

Hmmm what else.... the stereotype isn't my opinion, you need to get out more.

Oh yeah, good job on being an internet Bad Boy, you really showed me.
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Here is some info for those that want some info on testing standards. Part of the reason we spent 55K on a climate controlled dyno room with a 17 to 1 air exchange. Its not rocket science as some attempt to make it.  
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What is Corrected Horsepower?

We have all seen and made claims of an engine's horsepower. However, this stated horsepower is almost never what the engine actually made for power. How can that be? Most of the stated horsepower.....
GPW, you rock!
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Not going to quote your entire but thanks alot for that info. Very beneficial.
 
Well, I think I may be done for now whether I like it or not...???

Call for me to be banned or whatever... You know what you are and I can look at myself in the mirror in the morning...

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Dude, you got some serious issues to be getting that upset over a bike. You sound like some squid who bases his manhood on what kind of bike he has. As far as being able to look myself in the mirror? Are you serious? Hmmm 2 tours in Iraq, and 2 Bronze Stars, among other things that you've only seen on TV, yeah I can look at myself in the morning.

Hmmm what else.... the stereotype isn't my opinion, you need to get out more.

Oh yeah, good job on being an internet Bad Boy, you really showed me.
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You have no idea who I am and what I have done for my country, and I will not use this board to try to "WOW" or bullshit you or anybody else about it. If indeed you have done what you say and received 2 bronze stars, then it is unbelievable that you are such a cry baby... Some people throw their "Lifetime Accomplishments (whether real or imagined)" out for everyone to see when they get fronted out for being a prick and it looks to me like here we go again with another... As far as Internet bad boy
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You need to go back and look at things from the beginning here and see where this thread went wrong. I simply posted my numbers from a dyno run and you proceeded to bash from there.. (BTW- those 2 stars won't get you much on the outside besides some pain pills at the VA if you go wait in line, oh but no purple heart means you don't need them anyway...)
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Have a great life man, I have a feeling you are gonna need all the help you can get...
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...means you don't need them anyway...)  
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 Have a great life man, I have a feeling you are gonna need all the help you can get...
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Last thing I'm gonna say and to me it will be water under the bridge and no hard feelings. Yes I'm still in the Army, but I do listen to stuff like what you just said, I always have. Will I need VA? I won't need them , but it will be a plus getting a little tax-free money every month. Also, don't worry about me, financially I'm very well off. 2 successful businesses will do that for you.

No hard feelings, but I'm not leaving
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...means you don't need them anyway...)
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Have a great life man, I have a feeling you are gonna need all the help you can get...
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Last thing I'm gonna say and to me it will be water under the bridge and no hard feelings. Yes I'm still in the Army, but I do listen to stuff like what you just said, I always have. Will I need VA? I won't need them , but it will be a plus getting a little tax-free money every month. Also, don't worry about me, financially I'm very well off. 2 successful businesses will do that for you.

No hard feelings, but I'm not leaving
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Water under the bridge.....
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If you are a truly in the service (and it sounds like you are) then good luck with the rest of your hitch and stay safe.. I hope you never need the services of the VA (they are staffed by some very good people trying to do a very tough job, thanks mostly to problems within our government)..
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Bird Hunter

With the quick shifter, you still do the shifting and the sensor cuts the fuel for you... Correct?
It's not like an air or electric shifter that actually performs the shift.
Yeah, you do the shifting, it just cuts power to the coils for a fraction of a second which is activated by a pressure sensor in the shifter rod..
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are you using an ignition module too? I think with the 08's, they're like the Gixxers with the secondary injectors for the higher gears/rpms. So the Ignition module cuts ignition while you make the shift. Unless, DJ made a 2 in 1 unit for the 08 Busa that I'm not aware of.

With my 06 Gixx, w/o the ignition module, the QS cuts fuel and works fine for the first 3 gears. After that, you need the ign. mod. to use if for 4,5,6.
 
Bird Hunter

With the quick shifter, you still do the shifting and the sensor cuts the fuel for you... Correct?
It's not like an air or electric shifter that actually performs the shift.
Yeah, you do the shifting, it just cuts power to the coils for a fraction of a second which is activated by a pressure sensor in the shifter rod..
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are you using an ignition module too? I think with the 08's, they're like the Gixxers with the secondary injectors for the higher gears/rpms. So the Ignition module cuts ignition while you make the shift. Unless, DJ made a 2 in 1 unit for the 08 Busa that I'm not aware of.

With my 06 Gixx, w/o the ignition module, the QS cuts fuel and works fine for the first 3 gears. After that, you need the ign. mod. to use if for 4,5,6.
Yep, you have to use an ignition module.. Total cost was around $670.00 for the whole kit including Ign. Module..
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Not trying to be a kill joy, but when are people gonna realize that posting your dyno's will only "wow" those who don't know much about them. The only thing dyno's are good for is showing improvement of performance. There are people in the Gixxer forums swearing up and down from a full exhaust and PC they're pushing 185hp also. If you do you research you'll see that dyno's around the world will show plus or minus 5-20hp differences on the same bike. With cars is even worse, sometimes up to 60hp difference in dyno readings on the same car.
Don't worry you are not killing my joy by any means  
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 !!!   I couldn't really care less what your opinion is on dyno's, etc.. I love my bike and thank my lucky stars every day that I didn't make a dumbazz mistake by going with a ZX-14, or some other Kawi junk...  BTW, do they have a Kawi forum where you could go and share your thoughts with other like-minded people ?? or is it just cooler to go trolling and try to shid on the Busa forum
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Anyway, take care and keep a close eye on that frame. Those pesky frame cracks can turn into a major disaster real quick, unless of course it just breaks all at once in the middle of a ride...  
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Ouch, sounds like I hit a nerve. When did I "shid" on the Busa? and how in the world did the ZX14 come up?
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And its not "my opinion" on dyno's being different. Pull your head out of your ass and look at the facts. Don't be blinded by sheer ignorance or arrogance of brand. All I'm saying is Dyno numbers mean nothing other than to show improvement, if you disagree with that, please consider yourself an idiot.

And you say you want me to go to another forum? I don't know if you know this, but Suzuki riders are stereotyped by other riders for having that kind of attitude. All kidding aside, seriously.

Also, I'd have to say you're the first person thats ever wished for me to crash, at least thats the impression I got by your last statement. Thats okay, I'll forgive you. And as far as going to another forum? Not gonna happen, everyone else here is cool. This is a great forum as long as I don't let people like you get under my skin.
The increase in HP is impressive and true. However the maximum HP will change on the same spot depending on the atmospheric pressure at that given time. And yes dinos do differ.

However the increase in power is impressive and I anm seriously thinking of doing the same. A question is was the Brock fitted with the quieter insert? And if not will this make a difference?

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