Edward Snowden - Traitor or Patriot?

[chrisjp]

like my opinion matters... hell...im a traitor too....and a terrorist...and a person of interest...you name it...they have said it...ABOUT ME....and you. wake up.

 

[IG.]

Patriot, who could not stay quiet any longer. What happened after - he was cornered and ran for his life. I'm sure he didn't want to end up in Russia, but that was the only country which accepted him. If not for him, NSA would continue quietly monitoring everybody.

Slightly off topic, but this thread probably reached NSA computers before most had a chance to read it. I would also speculate that most everything publicly accessible online is downloaded to NSA computers daily. I would also speculate that all phone conversations are sent to NSA almost instantly. How do I know? Very simple - because they can, because they are humans, and because no one can verify. James Clapper lied in front of the entire country during his testimony in March of 2013.

 

[mysql]

Snowden thinks he's a patriot:

"I think patriot is a word that's thrown around so much that it can be devalued nowadays," he said. "Being a patriot doesn't mean prioritizing service to government above all else. Being a patriot means knowing when to protect your country, knowing when to protect your Constitution, knowing when to protect your countrymen, from the violations of and encroachments of adversaries. And those adversaries don't have to be foreign countries."

 

[mysql]

Is it capable of being abused. You better believe it! Are we? I don't know that answer.

It is being abused, and this isn't a recent thing:

A National Security Agency employee was able to secretly intercept the phone calls of nine foreign women for six years without ever being detected by his managers.

The unauthorised abuse of the NSA's surveillance tools only came to light after one of the women, who happened to be a US government employee, told a colleague that she suspected the man – with whom she was having a sexual relationship – was listening to her calls.



I don't have the link, but there was an article about the database being used as a dating service. Find single women, in debt or other problems, good looking.

 

[skydivr]

We were not being instructed to do anything we felt was illegal. What we struggled with was, how we can legally convict anyone that we tapped without legal warrants to do so. It wasn't a question of IF we were doing the wrong thing. It was the wholesale idea that we would figure out how to convict them in court after the fact. I at no time thought I was being given an illegal or unjust instruction. We know what we were looking for and we knew it when we saw it. But the problem was and is, these people have rights as Americans. That is where WE have backed ourself into a legal corner. That is also why you have only seen 2 go to trial thus far. 2 down, thousands await. They await because any attorney will be able to attack the legality of why why got them there before the judge.

And again I will state, that Bush turned on the "Do what we need to do to catch terrorist. We will work out the legal parts later." And to this day they languish in prison in a legal limbo. This isn't by accident. And this isn't something I'd say was troubling to me. I certainly know we were and are at war with Muslim extremist. We weren't the legal system. We are the gatherer of evidence to allow the government to determine how they will proceed with what we provide them.

At no time were we instructed to monitor someone that we felt were not connected to the threat of our nation. That I would have taken issue with. I respect that Snowden feels that rights are being violated. Technically he is correct. But he has given no specifics that I see addresses an individually singled out person. I have not seen all he has had to say. But thus far he is outing us for a "policy" he thinks is wrong. Not who we are applying it to.

Is it capable of being abused. You better believe it! Are we? I don't know that answer. But coming from Snowden's world, he had about 8 ways to send it up the ladder if there was a fundamental abuse taking place. I suspect he didn't like the answers he got. Even though when he signed up he was made aware of what he was doing and what his responsibility was. So he was a young man that didn't like what he was being told by his superiors. And he made his choice in his way.

I believe he believes that he is doing the right thing. But from the perspective of the damage he has done, is inexcusable. I do believe he did the smartest thing possible in the way he did this. I doubt we will hear of his mysterious unexplainable death out of the blue. Had he not did it in the way he did, we would never be hearing about a dead man named Edward Snowden. Russia will see a windfall in its ability to know our intelligence methods. Don't for a second think Russia didn't take him in without getting something substantial in return. They are not stupid. They have a 29 year old fugitive from the American intelligence community. He would be killed in most other places he would have ended up. He may still end up dead at the hands of the Russians. When his purpose has been served, they will NOT allow him to be a leak twice.

I hear there are going to be be new revelations exposed soon by him and his handlers. Why? What purpose does he propose will continue to be served? I believe he is attempting to inflict as much harm as he can because he became disgruntled. That is plain and simple nothing more than a different form of the same enemy he was sworn to pursue and terminate. He should be treated no differently than them.

Thank you for the response, and this is where my quandary begins. I want the bad guys too. If you catch a guy red-handed, I don't think a lawyer should be able to get him off scot-free just because the evidence wasn't collected 'right'. There are plenty of GOOD PEOPLE in the NSA/DOD/etc. who are doing their best to protect this nation, and feel their hands are tied over 'legalities'. What I fear is that the power is just too tempting for those who would use it for other, political purposes. Think of this in the hands of a police state. 1984. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Been watching 'Person of Interest'?

Thing is, now that the tech exists, I don't think there's ANY WAY that it can or will be stopped, regardless of what he reveals/doesn't reveal. I don't think he needs to reveal anything else unless it's something that proves it WAS being used in those very situations that you say you'd balk at above...

 

[Scooby315]

Traitor to who? Patriot of who? The people or the Government? The people are "supposed to be the Government but we should know otherwise. If you are not at the top of the chosen food chain you are just a pawn, sometimes a privileged pawn but if and when the King decides it so you will be sacrificed as the pawn you are. Let's just say you or I are that privileged pawn and obtain the knowledge that yourself and fellow pawns are not as valuable to the king as you thought. As a matter of fact you come to realize it's a fact that the king does not give a damn about yous and has decided to sacrifice you not for the greater good but just for his own selfish wants and desires, because he feels you're not as important as he is. Do you alert the pawns who are not privileged to this information or be a good pawn and keep it to yourself. Mind you the King is absolutely in the wrong. Do you 1 become a "patriot" to the people or 2 a "traitor" to the King??

Hypothetical maybe not so far from the truth scenario: The Government is performing population control by way of poisonous medicines, vaccines, withholding cures, contaminating crops. A privileged person obtains actual factual knowledge of this...is he a traitor if he comes out and shares this info with his fellow people (pawns) about the abuse of trust of our Government (king)??

 

[lil charlie]

Interesting. I KNOW I heard him say he was a high school dropout! I do not doubt what you are saying charlie. It just makes me wonder what his motivations are by making that statement.

He dropped out after his 2nd year and got a GED, then when to Catinaville Community College.

Arundel senior high........go Wildcats!

 

[TallTom]

It is being abused, and this isn't a recent thing:

A National Security Agency employee was able to secretly intercept the phone calls of nine foreign women for six years without ever being detected by his managers.

The unauthorised abuse of the NSA's surveillance tools only came to light after one of the women, who happened to be a US government employee, told a colleague that she suspected the man – with whom she was having a sexual relationship – was listening to her calls.



I don't have the link, but there was an article about the database being used as a dating service. Find single women, in debt or other problems, good looking.

I won't say this didn't happen. I know for a fact that instances like this did happen. But they were rare. It was instant removal and punishment. As well as monitoring bad guys, we monitored the people monitoring the bad guys, to make sure they were monitoring just the bad guys. Was it perfect? No. I had to dismiss more than one analyst for wandering into monitoring people that weren't authorized. They were allowed to track a potential path they discovered during their primary profile. But they had to be able explain it during an audit. If they got audited.

 

[TallTom]

Let me again keep things in perspective for us all. Americans are upset that Snowden revealed to the extent our government can reach. We didn't know any of these and we are appalled. If you knew the whole picture, you'd understand better that we have been monitored long before Snowden rolled over and it will continue long after this is over with.

However your credit card company knows where you are at what times and what you are doing just by watching how you use your card. So go off on them now. Newer cars have black boxes in them, that can re-construct what your vehicle was doing prior to a crash. It can see how YOU were driving it. Soon they will have the ability to uplink that data wirelessly without your permission. Go off on them! Your insurance company monitors your driving habits each year so that they can decide if you will have rates raised or if they will drop you or keep you. Go off on them.

The TV you watch, the internet sites you visit, all are tracked and used to profile you. Not by your government, by marketing agencies. Go off on them.

Oh but they do me no harm so I'm not mad at them. In that case use the same notion towards the NSA.

 

[mysql]

I guess you also subscribe to the notification that the constitution is an outdated document and we should pick and choose which laws we follow?

How about follow the rule of law, and if a law is outdated, go through the proper procedures to change them.

I like the 4th amendment. You can't get around the fact that the government is not allowed to bypass it.

 

[E Zurcher]

Conspiracy theorists crack me up! If the Govt wants to listen to my phone calls I really don't care. If they want to see what I look at from my computer, I really don't care. If they want to read my emails, I really don't care. I'm sure they are pretty bored if they are listening to me. I have nothing to hide. I am suspicious of those who so strongly defend their privacy.

 

[Scooby315]

Conspiracy theorists crack me up! If the Govt wants to listen to my phone calls I really don't care. If they want to see what I look at from my computer, I really don't care. If they want to read my emails, I really don't care. I'm sure they are pretty bored if they are listening to me. I have nothing to hide. I am suspicious of those who so strongly defend their privacy.

If you never care where does it stop?

 

[mysql]

Conspiracy theorists crack me up!

Woah dude!

A conspiracy theory is an explanatory proposition that accuses two or more persons, a group, or an organization of having caused or covered up, through secret planning and deliberate action, an illegal or harmful event or situation

It isn't a conspiracy theory, this is what the government is doing.

If the Govt wants to listen to my phone calls I really don't care. If they want to see what I look at from my computer, I really don't care. If they want to read my emails, I really don't care. I'm sure they are pretty bored if they are listening to me. I have nothing to hide. I am suspicious of those who so strongly defend their privacy.

Whistleblower Tice says high level government officials were monitored - is he saying they were a threat to the nation, and if that is true why are they still in office?

Snowden is releasing specific names of targeted individuals, through Greenwald:

Greenwald's Finale: Naming Victims of Surveillance | RealClearPolitics

We will soon see how many "threats to our nation" are sitting in judge's chairs, holding public office, in the media, etc.

You want to know why you should be worried? Because this is how blackmail starts. The government powers are limited to only things specifically assigned to them. They are overreaching and it will continue to get worse till it becomes so bad it must be stopped. You only need to look at any human history outside of the 1950-2010's to see what we're capable of and where we are heading.

 

[skydivr]

Conspiracy theorists crack me up! If the Govt wants to listen to my phone calls I really don't care. If they want to see what I look at from my computer, I really don't care. If they want to read my emails, I really don't care. I'm sure they are pretty bored if they are listening to me. I have nothing to hide. I am suspicious of those who so strongly defend their privacy.

I'm kinda like you - I'm not doing anything to garner anyone's attention under the current laws. But let's say it starts being used to confiscate guns, snoop on Tea Party members....where does it end, and how do we stop it from going there?

 

[mysql]

Three Felonies A Day: How the Feds Target the Innocent

http://www.amazon.com/dp/1594035229/?tag=hayabusamazon-20

Read this article, which was published BEFORE Snowdon came out with his revelations, and blamed NSA spying on the Bush administration and claimed its purpose was leverage and BLACKMAIL against innocent people especially those in key government/judicial positions:

NSA Whistleblower: NSA Illegally Spied On General Petraeus and Other Generals, Supreme Court Justice Alito and All of the Other Supreme Court Justices, the White House Spokesman, and Many Other Top Officials Washington's Blog

As we reported yesterday, NSA whistleblower Russel Tice – a key source in the 2005 New York Times report that blew the lid off the Bush administration’s use of warrantless wiretapping – told Peter B. Collins on Boiling Frogs Post (the website of FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds) that the NSA spied on and targeted for blackmail:

“Members of Congress, both Senate and the House, especially on the intelligence committees and on the armed services committees and some of the–and judicial”
“One of the judges is now sitting on the Supreme Court”
“Two … former FISA court judges”
“State Department officials”
“People in the executive service that were part of the White House–their own people”
“Antiwar groups”
“U.S. companies that that do international business”
“U.S. banking firms and financial firms that do international business”
“NGOs that–like the Red Cross, people like that that go overseas and do humanitarian work”
“The president of the United States now [i.e. Barack Obama, when he was running for Senate]“
Tice just named some additional names.

Specifically, Tice told radio host James Corbett that the NSA spied on the following government officials for the purposes of gaining leverage over them:

Top Democratic and Republican congress members, especially on the Intelligence, Armed Services and Judiciary committees, as well as the senior leadership in both the House and the Senate
General Petraeus and other generals (background)
Supreme Court justice Alito … and all of the other Supreme Court justices
White House spokesman Scott McClellan

Those officials were targeted before the NSA started its mass Prism surveillance program. Now, Tice says the NSA spies on everyone. He’s right.

Before Snowden, anyone making such claims would be laughed at. No way something like this is legal or couldd be carried out in our country. Now that we know it is actually happening, it hasn't stopped. In fact, it's accelerating.

 

[skydivr]

Got a feeling that the names that are about to be released are NOT about terrorism....when they start naming journalists, opposition politicians...I'm not talking about foreigners, I'm talking about US CITIZENS.....that's when it's gonna get REAL for some people....

 

[GNBRETT]

I agree with most of that. we have one intelligence officer who disagrees with policy so he exposes what they disagree with and let the rest of the world know our secrets? really? thats ok by many of you? wow! it doesn't matter what he believes! HE is not in a position to air out our national secrets and how the government conducts business. he has supervisors just like the rest of us. if he disagreed with somethn then bring it to the attention of his boss which maybe he did but didn't like the response. well too dam bad!

you don't tell the whole f-en world our national secrets cause some little nerd happens to disagree with how things are done. it doesn't work that way.

I'm perfectly fine giving up some of my rights to privacy if it will stop or prevent another jet from flying into one of our major cities or a dirty bomb goin off at a football game or mall. signs of the times means the government has to change its way of conducting business these days.

the terrorists are getting smarter and learning from their past mistakes. the government is trying to do the same whether you like it, believe it, trust it or whatever the gov has to step up its surveillance game if they want to keep this country safe.

everyone is so righteous and points to the "Constitution"..... giv me a break! u think the terrorists gov a flying chit about the constitution? ppl will continue to feel righteous right up to the point another terrorist attack goes off and kills thousands of innocent ppl. then everyone will be saying "How cud the US government let this happen? the US government has the best technology in the world and failed us and shud hav intercepted this plan so we can all be safe" blablabla..... well, the gov is trying to do just that!

We were not being instructed to do anything we felt was illegal. What we struggled with was, how we can legally convict anyone that we tapped without legal warrants to do so. It wasn't a question of IF we were doing the wrong thing. It was the wholesale idea that we would figure out how to convict them in court after the fact. I at no time thought I was being given an illegal or unjust instruction. We know what we were looking for and we knew it when we saw it. But the problem was and is, these people have rights as Americans. That is where WE have backed ourself into a legal corner. That is also why you have only seen 2 go to trial thus far. 2 down, thousands await. They await because any attorney will be able to attack the legality of why why got them there before the judge.

And again I will state, that Bush turned on the "Do what we need to do to catch terrorist. We will work out the legal parts later." And to this day they languish in prison in a legal limbo. This isn't by accident. And this isn't something I'd say was troubling to me. I certainly know we were and are at war with Muslim extremist. We weren't the legal system. We are the gatherer of evidence to allow the government to determine how they will proceed with what we provide them.

At no time were we instructed to monitor someone that we felt were not connected to the threat of our nation. That I would have taken issue with. I respect that Snowden feels that rights are being violated. Technically he is correct. But he has given no specifics that I see addresses an individually singled out person. I have not seen all he has had to say. But thus far he is outing us for a "policy" he thinks is wrong. Not who we are applying it to.

Is it capable of being abused. You better believe it! Are we? I don't know that answer. But coming from Snowden's world, he had about 8 ways to send it up the ladder if there was a fundamental abuse taking place. I suspect he didn't like the answers he got. Even though when he signed up he was made aware of what he was doing and what his responsibility was. So he was a young man that didn't like what he was being told by his superiors. And he made his choice in his way.

I believe he believes that he is doing the right thing. But from the perspective of the damage he has done, is inexcusable. I do believe he did the smartest thing possible in the way he did this. I doubt we will hear of his mysterious unexplainable death out of the blue. Had he not did it in the way he did, we would never be hearing about a dead man named Edward Snowden. Russia will see a windfall in its ability to know our intelligence methods. Don't for a second think Russia didn't take him in without getting something substantial in return. They are not stupid. They have a 29 year old fugitive from the American intelligence community. He would be killed in most other places he would have ended up. He may still end up dead at the hands of the Russians. When his purpose has been served, they will NOT allow him to be a leak twice.

I hear there are going to be be new revelations exposed soon by him and his handlers. Why? What purpose does he propose will continue to be served? I believe he is attempting to inflict as much harm as he can because he became disgruntled. That is plain and simple nothing more than a different form of the same enemy he was sworn to pursue and terminate. He should be treated no differently than them.

 

[mysql]

I agree with most of that. we have one intelligence officer who disagrees with policy so he exposes what they disagree with and let the rest of the world know our secrets? really? thats ok by many of you? wow! it doesn't matter what he believes! HE is not in a position to air out our national secrets and how the government conducts business. he has supervisors just like the rest of us. if he disagreed with somethn then bring it to the attention of his boss which maybe he did but didn't like the response. well too dam bad!

The NSA is corrupt.

Darrell Issa: James Clapper lied to Congress about NSA and should be fired

"Director Clapper continues to hold his position despite lying to Congress under oath about the existence of bulk data collection programs in March 2013," the letter reads. "Asking Director Clapper, and other federal intelligence officials who misrepresented programs to Congress and the courts, to report to you on needed reforms ... is not a credible solution."

If Congress cannot get the NSA to admit to, never mind reform, its illegal activities, what chance does an employee have?

Snowden DID try to report illegal activities to his boss, and to their superiors, he went up the chain of command and was basically told to shut up and just do it - so he took the only logical route left to someone in his position. He brought hard evidence of those activities - the activities Clapper DENIED - to the American people and our political representatives.

you don't tell the whole f-en world our national secrets cause some little nerd happens to disagree with how things are done. it doesn't work that way.

Illegal spying is not a national secret. It's not lost on me that the things we've been complaining about the chinese doing (spying, hacking networks, stealing company secrets, etc) are things we have been doing all along.

In a relationship, we call that projecting. A woman who is keeping her options open and flirting with other men, keeps a tight leash on her current boyfriend because she fears he is doing the same thing she is.

I'm perfectly fine giving up some of my rights to privacy if it will stop or prevent another jet from flying into one of our major cities or a dirty bomb goin off at a football game or mall. signs of the times means the government has to change its way of conducting business these days.

Have you done the math on how often and how likely that is to occur? You should be far more worried about hammers. A lot of people are dying from hammer blows to the head, far more than any terrorist threat in recorded history. Are you going to give up the rest of your rights to prevent all the other far more likely situations where loss of life is to occur? Why are you so focused on terrorists?

the terrorists are getting smarter and learning from their past mistakes.

No, they are idiotic, and we are provoking them into doing more. Given the amount of time and money they have, their attacks have been feeble. Want to talk about Bin Laden? We trained him! Want to talk about Saddam? We helped keep him in power! This is just like watching a Spiderman movie. All the villains are self created.


Do you know what the world called America before the world wars? The great neutral. Know why? Because we didn't act like we do today.

everyone is so righteous and points to the "Constitution"..... giv me a break! u think the terrorists gov a flying chit about the constitution? ppl will continue to feel righteous right up to the point another terrorist attack goes off and kills thousands of innocent ppl. then everyone will be saying "How cud the US government let this happen? the US government has the best technology in the world and failed us and shud hav intercepted this plan so we can all be safe" blablabla..... well, the gov is trying to do just that!

The odds of becoming a lightning victim in the U.S. in any one year is 1 in 700,000.

The odds of the same person being killed by a terrorist in the U.S is 1 in 20,000,000.

WHY AREN'T YOU TRYING TO STOP THE LIGHTNING ATTACKS?!?

PS: Don't bring up the foiled attacks. Once you omit the plots that were government sponsored (where we lure men we consider likely to turn then bust them for a plot we manufactured and paid for) the number of foiled plots drops by 70%.

PS 2: We were warned prior to 9/11 and didn't do anything with the information we had been given.

We were warned prior to the boston bombings, and did nothing with the information.

What makes you so sure we need more information when we never use what is available to us in actual plots that were carried out? What makes you so sure the information won't be abused? What makes you so sure we should be giving up more rights to prevent something that has almost zero chance of happening to anyone in the country?


“They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.”

Ben Franklin

 

[Projekt]

Exactly! Most of these so called domestic terrorists are groomed by undercover law enforcement personnel. It is god damned charade and all it does is mislead the gullible American public into believing that a threat still exists.

Fact of the matter is that some very special interests are at work fomenting ongoing cultivation of enemies to destabilize and depose governments only to install friendly pro-western regimes. We got into Afghanistan for a couple, three major reasons.

First and foremost, the dwindling supply of opium on the world market where Afghanistan was the leader in cultivation for centuries prior to the Taliban (A group of people orphaned and taken into Medresas to study the Holy Qu'ran) decided that they wanted no part of the continued poisoning of America's enemies by way of free and open proliferation of Heroin and derivatives. Guess who the two largest consumers of Heroin are in the world? Any takers? IRAN and RUSSIA... Now, look into the History and establishment of Hong Kong by the British Imperialists and why it was ours for a couple centuries. You might learn that British and Dutch trading companies continued to distribute Heroin or Opium illegally after the Government of China banned it due to a perceived, social-economic and military readiness threat. You want to weaken a country to prep it for takeover (Think Iran)? Go about flooding it full of cheap and destructive drugs so that the soldiers have no fight in them at all. Better yet, you hook them like they did our Brothers in the African American communities in America and then just like that, cut them off. Talk about threat to the force.

Second, due to the current market demand for iPhones and Samsung Galaxies you have a major surge in price for Lithium which is the major active raw material in compact electronic device power units. Afghanistan is known to have recently been found to have a huge natural and easy to reach supply of that mineral. Guess who pushed to get us into that market and steal it from under their noses. Today's Gold is Lithium folks.

Finally, you have the ever present and exponentially growing need for cheap easy to reach energy. Afghanistan is known to possess endless untapped resources as it is adjacent to Iran. Just like what caused the Gulf War to pop off in the nineties at the hands and with the help of none other than our very own Houston Oil Cartels drilling sideways into Iraq's vast oil reserves. Thus, can you predict the outcome of Afghanistan's budding super industrialization of petroleum exploitation? They will ensure supply by side drilling into Iran's (second only to Saudi Arabia) vast underground petroleum reservoirs while prospecting and developing legitimate oil wells.

Now, put it all into perspective as to why Russia was trying so hard to take over and now we have done so only to install Hamid Karzai who is brothers with the world's Heroin supplier and is known to have a so called adversarial and dismissive relationship with the United States.

Want to see a War with Iran? This is how you get it in a couple decades. If you think Iranians are the enemy, you may have been watching FOX News too closely and need to learn about the back story.

Why are they our enemy? Because we have been in that country since Lawrence of Arabia drove around there in a Rolls Royce and did everything he could to stake a claim for the greater English Speaking commonwealth. They split those countries, with very little reason, into what they are now and failed to observe the territorial claims of the Assyrians/Armenians/Turks/Kurds/Arabs/Persians/Pashtus/Afghans and the like. They elevated Sheiks to Emirs and Princes and promised endless wealth if they gave us favorable consideration in regard to energy. In the 50's we had Sha Reza Pahlavi installed as the modern and progressive leader of Iran. He quickly went about westernizing that country to great dismay of the conservative majority. Showgirls and rockstars with drugs and decadence in the streets. Miniskirts and HotPants on young girls from conservative families walked the markets and it lasted nearly thirty years. If you want to take a country and turn it upside down you give them sex you give them drugs and you give them rock and roll not to mention gas guzzling automobiles from Detroit.

However, there was a rising tide of sentiment coming like a Tsunami on the Horizon. Students were educated to understand the nature of their country and the State of the Union. An insurrection mounted and they came in force to eject and hold hostage the destabilizers within the US Mission in Tehran. They had good reason to do so. They were Patriots and were there to stop the fleecing of their country. I am happy to see a country triumph against us in that malevolent manifest destiny we inflict without regard to innocents caught up as collateral damage. They say Death to America because we brought inordinate death to them.

Now maybe you can understand what it is all about before deciding to accept or reject the message or get caught up in the Domestic media's social programming.

By the way... Salaam U' Aleikum means "May peace be upon you" and it is a required greeting of Muslims when approaching strangers or friends. It does not mean "Hello". It means "I come in peace."

America does not walk that walk and it does nothing to foster peace or freedom. Only further oppression around the world and here we are calling Edward Snowden a traitor. That man is a living God at this point to the world because he gave his own country's government the finger for the benefit of the citizens of the world. He did us proud and he is an AMERICAN PATRIOT through and through.

 

[E Zurcher]

Most of this was already debated before implementation of the Patriot Act. Why are people so surprised our government did what it said it was going to do?