ENGINE CUT-OUT, AN UPDATE

I have just returned from the dealer who called me earlier this morning that the bike was fixed. Well, I could not load her on the trailer, because the engine was sputtering and hesitating. I was truly pissed and both the owner and the mechanic were really ambarassed. They took it back, took the pump apart again, and did not find anything wrong. They swore it ran great when they test rode it few hours back. They called Suzuki, but nobody was there. All teir technicians have been to some kind of seminar the whole week and there was no technical support (!). I almost traded my Busa for Y2K, but he wanted $3100. Had he got down to 2500 I swear I would've done it!
Anyway, by the time I got home he called me and said that they found what was wrong: It was the little O-ring that was slightly torn. They replaced the O-ring and the problem dissapeared. I will pic it up tomorrow and will keep you posted.
 
KawAbuser,
Agree with you completely but you've got one thing wrong:

Suzuki USA had the solution in hand (108/109) but had to clear it through their legal dept before we were offered a "cure" that was common knowledge in europe. Lets just thank the corporate lawyers for that one.

NOT TRUE!
I personally was the one that informed Suzuki in my country (the Netherlands, Europe) about this before they had even heard about this from Japan. And only thanks to what I'd learned from the USA on this board.
 
EVERY corporation wants to avoid product liability. My buds at Ford lost the biggest lawsuit in history with the firebomb Pinto (as they should have). That hurt them BIG time. Not just the suit but later revenues, sales and it shut down the whole Pinto line. Another smaller but excellent company, the "Great Pacific Iron Works" a maker of rock climbing hardware simply closed down rather than continue in the face of product liability lawyers. That shutdown denied the public a great product. I still use their stuff today. My company, a large manufacturer of farm equipment, has a standing accident committee that reviews every accident involving our machinery. It's made up mostly of engineers but there is a product liability lawyer or two in the meetings too. If they uncover a problem they make sure it's fixed on the very next machine off the line. They would be legally remiss if they didn't. We avoid callbacks just like everybody else. But we liberally warranty existing machines if there is a known problem.

The Busa is so technologically advanced and complicated that it simply cannot be built perfectly for everybody everywhere. The threat of lawsuits tends to prevent "all owner" fixes. Most companies will quietly warranty any failures as Suzi appears to be doing. Of course the key to this is having a good, concerned dealer.

So what's the solution? Everybody that has a cutout problem should get on the phone to Suzi(not the dealer) and ***** loudly. Successful companies like Suzi listen and work toward customer satisfaction. Meantime ALL OF US should keep an eye on our fuel filters, perhaps eyeballing them at every oil change.
 
What do you guys think of putting a can of fuel injector cleaner in the bike every couple of thousand miles? No it doesn't fix the faulty filter design problem but it might clean things up and minimize it.
 
red line inject.cleaner works and will remove all intake valve deposits also look down intake before,and in a month you'll see for yourself.
 
Few words to KawAbuser on this very emotional issue. I want to make it clear that I do not defend Suzuki, - they neither need it nor deserve it. Let's be realistic about it. When you talk to a Customer Service representative and mention the Hayabusa.org you can immediately sense a resentment. From a legal stand point credibility of this board and its members is close to zero, and there is a good reason for that. We, (and that includes yours truly) engage in a lot of rhetoric that has nothing or very little to do with motorcycles. Posts like riding while stoned catch more attention than those that deal with manufacturing problems. And that is what we want. When you read this board chances are you would learn more about sexual preferrences of Packa's mother than how to change oil. Again, Suzuki has no obligation to monitor this site and treat it as a "Vox Populi". They are, however obligated to monitor official customer complaints, and that brings us face to face with dreaded dealers and their underpaid and underskilled mechanics, (well, at least some of them). For dealers warranty repairs are not profitable and they will do everything to discourage you from leaving the bike there. That's reality! Some of us are skilfull enough to take the engine apart, majority will probably stop at changing spark plugs, and have no choice but to go to a dealer if they care about their warranty.

So, what do we know about the engine cut out problem? I have no idea what percentage of the bikes if affected. And for Suzuki, this number must come from the dealers. And if we are going to ***** about it on this board and do the repairs on our own because we do not trust our dealers, they will never know.

From my own experience I can draw the following conclusions:

1. The upgraded version of the filters is still prone to clogging.

2. I use the same gas station for all my vehicles and if there was anything wrong with the gas I assume it would effect them all,

3. The problem with engine cut out will not be detected in its initial stage unless you drive it hard or put it on a dyno, hence majority of people here has never experienced this phenomenon.

4. Since the fuel filter system is not in the periodic maintenance chart, Suzuki cannot claim that clogged filters are a result of normal wear and tear and put it in the same category as, let's say breake pads. They have no choice but to foot the bill.

But the most important is finding true root causes and eliminating this problem permanently. And I am very skeptical if this can be achieved from this board.
 
I can assure you that suzuki does not moniter this site. Or any other MC board for that matter. Your position on our lighthearted commentary being derogatory toward our credibility and standing with suzuki is way off base. Most members here are very long standing and have established cyber-frienships if you will. This of course leads to dialogue other than technical issues. Fact is this owner base lends a tremendous amount of influence in the event of a problem like the one were discussing here. Personally I would have no problem collecting affadavits of other owners maladys to strengthen my position should litigation ever insue.
Make no mistake org. can be a powerful tool for this and a myriad of other issues.
 
If the fuel you are using is the cause of the substance clogging the filters in your Busa it wouldn't neccessarily affect your other vehicles in the same fashion due to the fact that your other vehicles aren't using the same filters as those found on the Busa. I can't speak specifically on your other vehicles since I have no idea what you own but my automobiles use fuel filters which are different than those used on the Busa. The filter design on the Busa may be too fine for certain types of fuel? Supposedly this was addressed and the newer filters are not as fine as the original early 99' filters. Perhaps they are still too fine? Also it is worth noting that gasoline sold to consumers is not the same everywhere. The fuel sold here in my location is different than that sold in large cities that are required by the EPA to use so called pollution fighting/cleaner burning fuel that contains MTB and other products not found in the fuel sold here where such requirements are not in place. Even the same types of fuel (with MTB etc) are slightly different depending on the climate, season etc. Octane levels can also differ depending on location which effects the level of ocatane enhancers used. None of this even addresses the differences between different brands of gasoline which are produced at different refineries from crude oil produced from different parts of the world. Not all crude oil is the same either and there are vast differences depending on where it was extracted. It's not like Coca Cola where it's all pretty much the same based on the same formula regardless of where it is produced. Can you tell I work for an oil company?
 
Trying to blame this on fuel is just so much bs. We have documented this problem worldwide. Several in Ca., myself included, Dirty Pete in Toronto, DaZee in Japan, another with only 700 miles in the UK, and I could go on and on. It's all in our files.Also, why hasn't this shown up on the GSZR750?Why not on Honda, Kawa or Yamaha? I think that the reason is because the filters are buried deep inside the machine and it's a big job to get to them. They don't want to do it on all bikes, as a recall would cause.
 
Well obviously SOMETHING is clogging the filters on the Busa! And since they are FUEL filters I would think that the elements found in FUEL would be suspect. Another theory we have discussed is the coating use in the fuel tank. Unless the GZXR-750 and the other bikes mentioned are using the exact same fuel filters they aren't relevant. Also there has to be an explanation as to why everyone is not having these problems - only some. Yes there are many that have experienced clogged filters but there are many that have not yet we all have the same bike and now since the original early 99' filters have been replaced with a new version we all now have the same filters. I put nearly 6000 miles on a 99' Busa with the "improved" filters and now 1300 miles on a 2000 model with the same filters and have not experienced problems. There are many areas to open up the Busa here and I exceed 170 regularly - in other words - lots of full throttle. Yet my Busa is the same as others. What is different? The fuel I use is different. The gasoline here is vastly different from that sold in California I know for a fact. I'm not sure what type of fuel is used in many other locations without doing some research and checking the EPA mandates for that area. Who knows perhaps certain fuel breaks down the tank coating and it ends up in the filters? The substance clogging the filters is coming from somewhere. How's the analysis coming SOKOL49?
 
I have just received the result of the elemental analysis done on an S.E.M. (Scanning Electron Microscope). The predominant peak indicated is Copper with strong second peak identified as Sulfur. there were also present some trace peaks of Aluminum, Silica, Tin, Chrome, Iron, and Zinc.

What does all that mean? I have no idea. We need some help from guys with chemistry background. One speculation: Suzuki uses some "stuff" for coating of the inside of the tank.

P.S. OMEGA, my comments about the nature of business conducted on this board were not meant as criticism. I truly enjoy this board with all its ups and downs. I only tried to point out that this forum will not influence Suzuki one way or another. If my remarks offended anyone, - my sincere apologies!

[This message has been edited by SOKOL49 (edited 21 January 2000).]
 
I rode my bike today and it seems to be fine. Here is what I found in the February issue of Sport Rider, page 21: "After our Hayabusa ...hit 5000-mile mark we noticed it was beginning to run a bit offsong and would stall in traffic for no apparent reason"...
"...we found out from Suzuki that a technical bulletin had been issued to all dealers concerning the exact problems...It seems one of the filters in the fuel petcock has a bad reaction to some of the oxygenated pump fuels on the market."

Now, this is as close to the official Suzuki statement concerning this prolem as we will ever get. It is possile that Suzuki indeed used some coating inside the tank that slowly releases a residue. I don't think they will ever admitt to it, simply because it is much cheaper to recall or replace filters than to recall and replace all tanks. It is possible that Suzuki is silently praying that the problem will go away with time, and they won't have to foot the bill for tank replacement. The next step for us would be to take a sample from the surface inside of the tank, and see if it contains any of the elements found in the clogged filter, or simply ask Suzuki what they were using as a protective coating. They can always claim that this info is propriatery, but I don't think they would be stupid enough to lie.

Just my two cents

[This message has been edited by SOKOL49 (edited 22 January 2000).]
 
I had wondered from the day the dealer showed me the infected parts if the "brown gook" was formed from heat of the pump/motor when the bike cools down after riding. Since no fuel is under pressure or moving the foriegn material is subject to heat and is actualy cooked in the fuel pump. Upon starting the fuel pressure blasts the gook from the injectors (hard starting?). I fear that the injectors are suffering from this same gook and they should be cleaned as well.

The GSXR750 fuel pump is in the fuel tank, in this location the surrounding fuel absorbs the accumulated heat from the pump. The race Hayabusa's of Yoshimura use a special fuel tank with the "GSXR750 Kit Pump" located in the fuel tank. Don't most fuel injected cars have a fuel pump in the tank?

What exactly is changed in the 99 and 00 fuel tanks?

And why?

Are we just cooking the fuel/tank coating?
 
the build up of contaminants starves the pump of fuel,causing it to over work to produce the same given volume of fuel causing the pump to overheat and electric motors become in efficient multiplying the problem even further.
 
So the little o-ring strikes again! What follows is something I tried to post last night:

This is a very good discussion about the filter problems so I will add my comments. I had the fuel filter replacement work done at around 2600 miles. To that point I had not experienced any sort of engine hesitation or stalling of any kind-including a day at the track where I worked the motor hard for the better part of a day. The worst I had experienced was one minor and very brief hiccup while idling stuck in traffic on a warm day. My plastic pump screen was coated with a thin layer of some blackish residue which seems a bit different from the brown gunk I keep hearing described here. The paper filter looked okay but I am not sure you can look at that one and tell much. The small pressure regulator filter was totally clean. I run Texaco premium pump fuel. After the filters were replaced at the dealer the bike wasn't quite up to snuff and a personal disassembly of the fuel pump showed a small o ring not properly seated with was probably affecting fuel pressure. The new plastic pump strainer did not appear that different from the old one and to date I have seen NO specs as to pore size between the old and new strainers. The paper pump filter appeared identical. I still have a big question as to why this bike is having these problems. Cars have been injected for years and it doesn't seem to be a problem. Are the filters bigger?? What is the actual injector diameter?? It still seems very strange to me and I am half expecting that new plastic pump strainer to get just as dirty as the old one. The presence of sulfur in the injector gunk would suggest that the gunk had at least some origin from the gasoline. Could the pump be getting hot enough to trigger the buildup of residues? I'm reaching here but the question remains about what it is about some Busas that causes this problem!
 
you can find red line at pep boys i had a problem with my 916 and used red line and it helped, i will use it in my y2k busa also.
 
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