Extreme Tire Change

[Tufbusa]

Thanks for all the expertise and discussion you guys, it really is educational for me. Tufbusa, I don't know what to say re: riding hard on the street except the following.....Rob (ozz) and me do ride incredibly hard on our favorite, uninhabited, obscure mountain roads. Probably 90% for miles and miles. 90 degree + temps, me 250lbs (with leathers), 500 lb Busa. As we all know, it's different from the track in terms of cornering speeds, lean angles, etc. and no, I've never had a hipo street tire step out on me on the street. I must say, however, yesterday (with Pilot Races) when we stopped for a break my brand new track tires looked like they had just finished a track day right to the edge of the contact surface. After loosing my rear tire last week on the track (big saved step out)....and this is key for me....I just don't know how much distance exists between my 2ct's going away at the track and the possibility of a step out in the canyons. I do know, however, that running Pilot Races on my canyon rides is a QUANTUM LEAP  in adhesion and safety for me because it's unlikely I'll slow down on those favorite roads!  For longer rides, the 2ct's are fine including "spirited riding" foreys when a long way from home.        Doyle

I'm not surprised your PP 2cts gave up grip on a track day. While I am certainly biased against michelin's infamous PP's and 2ct's with good reason since we seem to pick up way to many crashed bikes on these tires, they are a pretty good street tire for the masses. The thing I hear most is "But they were sticking like glue and felt so good right up to the point they let go".

What I can tell you about the PP's is they are pretty good everyday tires. What I have learned is if you are going to push either of these tires you best be a really smooth rider. If you are a little ham fisted with either hand, you most likely will eventually taste the dirt. You being on a big heavy powerful bike like the mighty busa, you can spin your race tires on every exit just like your 2ct's. It's no big issue to break the tire loose, just be sure to keep your rpm in the top 25% range so the spin is manageable. Spinning up the rear in the midrange of power is a real recipe for the infamous highside!

Most guys think the 2ct is the answer to better track grip due to the small little sliver of softer rubber on the bitter edge of the tire. Any decent tire will allow you to roll all the way to the edge and drag you knee, even sport touring tires. Where you need the additional grip is somewhere near midway between the center and outside edge of the tire. This is where you are cranking in the power for corner exit drive. The 2ct has no additional grip where it's really needed. I knew from the very beginning the 2ct was a sales gimmick by michelin and it "WORKED"! Pirelli has a much better track oriented tire in it's Corsa III's (IMO of course) which has a full one third of bubble gum on each side of the rear tire with the center one third still remaining the standard corsa compound.

I don't doubt you guys ride hard in the canyons but this is what I know: There is a short 10 min video I watched some time ago made by Pirelli. They took a retired Moto GP racer and a big fellow I believe weighing in around 270 lbs. They put each rider on a GSXR1K with Pirelli Corsa III's if I remember correctly. The video was made some place in Tennessee. The road they were on was one turn after another. The goal was to see just how hot they could get the tires. According to Pirelli the optimum temp for the tires was between 115 & 130 degrees. Neither of the riders ever reached 130 degrees.

Another little tid bit I can share with you concerning heat cycles. According to Jim Allen of Dunlop tires, heat cycles are a thing of the past. According to Jim, all modern day tires are long worn out before heat has an effect on the life of the tire.

90% in the canyons, you are a brave soul my friend!

I try my best to keep it around 50% on the canyon roads we ride. Many times you only get one miscalculation and it's all over but the slow walkin and the sad singin! I usually take a lunch with me so I have something to snack on since it's a LONG way to the bottom if you happen to fall.

 

[Charlesbusa]

If you fella's are riding hard enough on the twisties to heat up a set of race tires hot enough to out perform a high performance street tire you are some hard ridin dudes.

+1

My pace on the streets is no where near my pace on the track. I probably could never overheat a street tire on the street.

When I overheated my BT002RSs at buttonwillow. The air temp was 96degrees, it was my 6th and 7th sessions, and it was my 6th to 7th lap in those sessions. So it still took quite a bit to overheat those tires.

gtrpimp76 ran slightly higher PSIs than normal to keep his BT002RSs cooler and it seemed to work. I say seemed because we had a TON of red flags, so his tires definitely had more time to cool than mine at buttonwillow. But then again he was running a KILLER pace.

For me a slightly higher PSI could work, but the reason that keeps a tire cooler is because it has a smaller contact patch. I'd rather pay a little extra in a RACE tire to have the larger contact patch and the high heat handling.

 

[Charlesbusa]

Another little tid bit I can share with you concerning heat cycles. According to Jim Allen of Dunlop tires, heat cycles are a thing of the past. According to Jim, all modern day tires are long worn out before heat has an effect on the life of the tire.

That's interesting. Definitely makes me feel better about using my RACE tires on muliple trackdays without warmers.

The other thing I've been told by tire reps is to bring your Race tires up to temp slowly, 2-3 laps, and bring them down in temp slowly, 2 cool down laps. Its hitting 100% straight out of the gate and burning right into the pit that heats and cools your tire rapidly which does the most damage.

 

[raydog]

So, you guys, (I'm thinking about 10 things but I'll speak to about 3 of em), in terms of race tires on the track, without tire warmers, what's a guy to do when the 20 minute sessions only allow about 4-5 laps? As soon as you're warmed up it's time for cool down laps!(besides the obvious..buying warmers!).
Tufbusa, when my PRC's wear out, I guess I'll be replacing them with the new Bridgestones, based on Gtrpimp and your comments. Also, thanks for all the expertise and discussion you guys, it really is educational for me. I don't want to come across as a pompous "I'm really fast" street rider, my earlier comments were intended to illustrate simply how darn hot the PRC's got on the street for me (little gummy balls all over and too hot to touch with bare hand). It just freaks me out to imagine that I may not even be getting them up to optimal operating temp on the street! Also, 90% for me is as fast as I can go with a significant margin of safety and full focus...others ride far more "on the edge" than me, but when conditions are right, I do charge the corners.

Again, to all of you, know how much I appreciate your knowledge and discussion on tires, it's about learning and making the right choices....it shows how increased safety can coexist with increased performance.              Doyle

 

[gtrpimp76]

on big tracks like Miller Motorsports Park and Reno/Fernley (4+ miles) usually in 1 1/2 laps they should be up to temp.

Just use your best judgement and feel as an indicator. If you're going through corners and they feel like they're not sliding when at +/- 80% pace, they're warm and ALMOST up to temp. You can more or less start dragging knee w/caution. In other words, the SLIDE is your best indicator.

 

[Tufbusa]

Raydog, you may want to have a peek at the Bridgestone BTO16 for street use. I doubt it will perform as well as the BT002RS? The BTO16 has my attention and I'm really anxious to get some feedback from hard riders and track use. BaBusa has a set on his busa. I spent a few days with Rich last week on MJN's ride and he seemed to be very pleased with Bridgestone's latest technology. Tripple compound rear and dual compound front. May just be a sales gimmick, who knows? All the reviews I've seen speak very highly of the 16!

I too enjoy threads like this. One can learn much while enjoying other ideas and views.

 

[mjn]

Raydog, you may want to have a peek at the Bridgestone BTO16 for street use. I doubt it will perform as well as the BT002RS? The BTO16 has my attention and I'm really anxious to get some feedback from hard riders and track use. BaBusa has a set on his busa. I spent a few days with Rich last week on MJN's ride and he seemed to be very pleased with Bridgestone's latest technology.  Tripple compound rear and dual compound front. May just be a sales gimmick, who knows? All the reviews I've seen speak very highly of the 16!

I too enjoy threads like this. One can learn much while enjoying other ideas and views.

I just talked to Rich this morning... after roughly 2500 miles, he still has 1/32nds left to the wearbars in the center...a bit more than 2/32nds on the side. Taking into consideration the amount of straight riding he did comin up here and going back...I'd say that's pretty decent.

Compare that to my Qualifiers that, after this ride they've got less than 3/32nds left on the center and the side...with only 1200 miles.. I think I'm gonna try the 016's next..

 

[Charlesbusa]

As for the BT016s, I have read in a couple articles that at the track. The super soft edge compound gets overheated easily and starts sliding. But in both articles they said its highly unlikely during street use that the edges would overheat.

 

[mjn]

I agree..tufbusa was checking tire surface temps, the hottest mine got was 143....and it was a HOT day.