I like this.
It could be re-stated as:
More people are dieing because the speeds
have increased to dangerous levels, and are beyond
some rider's skills and abilities.
That "dangerous" speed could be
100, 200 or 300, depending on the rider.
Fatal Crashes in Land Speed Racing
- Thread starter TZ750d
- Start date
I like this.
It could be re-stated as:
More people are dieing because the speeds
have increased to dangerous levels, and are beyond
some rider's skills and abilities.
That "dangerous" speed could be
100, 200 or 300, depending on the rider.
I am NOT so sure about this one.
How about a show of hands on whether
the tracks themselves could take better
care of the riders ?
Not sure about any other LSR locations but for a short time it was here in Miami Fl. It seemed like it was basically a group of guys that managed to get permission to use an abandoned runway and set up shop there to get it done. Was great while it lasted, people payed to play and speed and everyone was happy. Not sure anyone has built a track from scratch with the intention of LSR events. That would be a lot of real-estate, have a hard time believing someone could keep it from going into the black financial death.
I agree with this statement
Well, the case at hand is LSR.
The obvious danger is well known to the participants.
The riders are the ones in danger.
The risk to spectators and officials is slim to none, although anything is possible.
We should all be aware of our surroundings and circumstances at every moment regardless of where we are; but only in such a way as to be prepared for the "what if's?" in life, not to live paranoid or afraid.
If someone wants to step in and try to limit LSR, then they need to be told to mind their business and go elsewhere.
There is really not much if anything to be added for safety measures. There are gear and bike safety standards already in place.
It is a sport of how fast can you go in a straight line, and in a set distance. Most anyone can do it, but it's the skilled riders that put up big numbers as they know what to do and when to do it.
Is there a right way to crash? Sure, skill can help you then too, but guarantees you nothing. Calm state of mind and level headedness regardless of circumstances is the best way to survive anything. But then again, how to regulate that? You don't. You simply let people do what they chose to do when it comes to a sanctioned event/sport. Every rider signs a waiver.
If anything at all could be improved it seems to be track conditions. I'm not a LSR, although I'de love to try it.
Everything I read and the people I talk to that have done LSR all say that the tracks could be smoother.
That's just how it is and the riders are aware of that, yet still choose to participate.
It seems the funding just isn't there for the repairs or resurfacing.
Perhaps some of the many millionares that participate in LSR events should be persuaded to fix the tracks around the country.
Either by a willingness to help the sport, or some personal publicity and a fancy plaque for their donation, whatever.
Anything other is the equivalent of a governing body in our personal business telling us what we can and cannot do.
LSR is an adult sport, it's not letting your 6 year old play in the road by themselves.
Lets just ban LSR all together because it's become too dangerous. Lets take a guess then as to how many of those pissed off participants will continue to persue their goals...only on the highway next to your family and mine.
Enough folks do that already, and I have no problem with it on empty roads, but that's not always the case either.
Look at NASCAR, I'm not a fan, but excessive safety BS has ruined it too. Oh no, there's a piece of paper or debris on the track, stop everything!
I'm all for doing things safely, but sadly enough, common sense is not so common anymore.
We as a nation need to wake up and realize that we need to take care of ourselves.
You should not depend on anything from anyone, especially to expect someone to look out for your personal safety.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for helping anyone in need, as well as for organized racing to be done safely.
Having said that the tracks could take better care of the riders doesn't make sense to me.
Whose fault should it be when a LSR rider crashes? Simple, the rider's.
As they had a mechanical failure due to any number of reasons. That a part simply gave out or someone was careless in production or assembly.
Or that the rider simply ran out of skill or ability when they needed it the most.
No disrespect intended to you sir, but you sound like a politician.
I have respect for the power of my bike...I have scared myself and that is why I want to sell it... I don't comprehend how to handle a suspension upset at 200 other than power through a head shake...I believe the guys that went down are experts on well built machines...partially that is why I want to bow out for the 200 hat / t shirt. Having a proven racing licence be it a 16 year old kids or a 50 year old guy with a handful of money the bikes / cars go fast and parts break and at speed it is not good to say the least. Any rules or regs will trim out the people that have fast bikes / cars and can't run them due to lack of experience. I recall a guy crawling off a track and getting clipped due to lack of spotters on a road course...the investigation proved to put more spotters in the corners and hill blind spots. It is very hard to say it is just racing but that is why they have the waiver at the gate...
Draco1340
Registered
Scott,
You certainly have been involved in (I think) all of the accident investigations and know the both the cause of the accident and the cause of death. I don't know the particulars of either. Most of the emphasis of these investigations have been centered on the cause of the accident, but what about cause of death. Is there equipment changes that could reduce risk if it was implemented or mandated at certain speeds. I am guessing that most of the injuries involve fractured clavicals lacerating the lung, cervical spine severance, or internal organ damage. Not to be too graphic, but certainly there is some way of identifying and reducing these injuries.
Is this being looked at?
Tom
You certainly have been involved in (I think) all of the accident investigations and know the both the cause of the accident and the cause of death. I don't know the particulars of either. Most of the emphasis of these investigations have been centered on the cause of the accident, but what about cause of death. Is there equipment changes that could reduce risk if it was implemented or mandated at certain speeds. I am guessing that most of the injuries involve fractured clavicals lacerating the lung, cervical spine severance, or internal organ damage. Not to be too graphic, but certainly there is some way of identifying and reducing these injuries.
Is this being looked at?
Tom
Tom:
ALL of this is being looked at very carefully.
At this point, I am concentrating on the CAUSE
of the accident, since:
1) If we prevent the accident,
we prevent the injury and the death.
2) The cause of the accident is something
we can deal with immediately.
We can start work NOW (see next posts), and do not have
to wait for a (usually slow-coming) homicide report or a coroner's report.
The valid prospect of civil litigation can profoundly limit
the amount of information that quickly becomes available.
This is a concern for EVERY track that has had a bad accident !
Scott
In the 1930’s and 40’s, Land Speed Racing (LSR) was formalized
with the formation of the Southern California Timing Association (SCTA).
The SCTA was a true association, being formed and run by
the racers themselves. The racers built the cars and bikes,
laid out the course, wrote the rules,
and paid for the timing clocks themselves.
The SCTA, still in business at El Mirage in California
and at Bonneville in Utah, is the model for all other
“timing associations†throughout the world,
whatever their business models.
When the East Coast Timing Association (ECTA)
was formed in the 1990’s, they used the model of the SCTA,
and even their rulebook - with suitable adjustments
for pavement instead of dry lakes.
When the Loring Timing Association (LTA)
was formed in the 2000’s,
The LTA, with permission of the ECTA,
used the ECTA rule book.
The history of racers organizing themselves -
and policing themselves - is part of LSR’s DNA,
and goes uninterrupted back to the 1930’s.
with the formation of the Southern California Timing Association (SCTA).
The SCTA was a true association, being formed and run by
the racers themselves. The racers built the cars and bikes,
laid out the course, wrote the rules,
and paid for the timing clocks themselves.
The SCTA, still in business at El Mirage in California
and at Bonneville in Utah, is the model for all other
“timing associations†throughout the world,
whatever their business models.
When the East Coast Timing Association (ECTA)
was formed in the 1990’s, they used the model of the SCTA,
and even their rulebook - with suitable adjustments
for pavement instead of dry lakes.
When the Loring Timing Association (LTA)
was formed in the 2000’s,
The LTA, with permission of the ECTA,
used the ECTA rule book.
The history of racers organizing themselves -
and policing themselves - is part of LSR’s DNA,
and goes uninterrupted back to the 1930’s.
The tradition of LSR is for the racers to be in charge of themselves:
The racers write and enforce the rules, are responsible
for their own safety, and decide how the racing is organized and paid for.
An often-overlooked part of this “association†point of view is that
each racer is partly responsible for the safety of all other racers.
This would include discouraging a racer from going down the track
if the racer is “out-of-control†or dehydrated.
It might also include reminding a racer to wear his glasses…….
Of the fourteen (14) “incidents in recent pavement LSR racing,
there are legitimate questions in at least four (4) involved riders
- and three (Lombardi, Owen and Deneau) of the five fatal
results - may not have realized they had passed the timing traps,
and were approaching the end of the track.
Obviously, ANY LSR association would be concerned with even one fatality.
The concern would be much higher when the MAJORITY of the deaths
could be laid to a SINGLE CAUSE the might be easily prevented.
The racers write and enforce the rules, are responsible
for their own safety, and decide how the racing is organized and paid for.
An often-overlooked part of this “association†point of view is that
each racer is partly responsible for the safety of all other racers.
This would include discouraging a racer from going down the track
if the racer is “out-of-control†or dehydrated.
It might also include reminding a racer to wear his glasses…….
Of the fourteen (14) “incidents in recent pavement LSR racing,
there are legitimate questions in at least four (4) involved riders
- and three (Lombardi, Owen and Deneau) of the five fatal
results - may not have realized they had passed the timing traps,
and were approaching the end of the track.
Obviously, ANY LSR association would be concerned with even one fatality.
The concern would be much higher when the MAJORITY of the deaths
could be laid to a SINGLE CAUSE the might be easily prevented.
With that in mind, I forwarded Karl’s and
my thinking to Joe Timney of the ECTA
(Racers taking care of racers).
Joe:
I was chatting with Karl Gunter, and he
had a nice idea for additional safety at
the Ohio track.
1) Put bright green lights at the finish of the timing traps.
2) Have a bright red light (maybe 300-400 feet
past the timing lights) turn on after a vehicle trips
the timing lights.
More warning to racers that
the finish lights have been passed.
YHS
Scott
my thinking to Joe Timney of the ECTA
(Racers taking care of racers).
Joe:
I was chatting with Karl Gunter, and he
had a nice idea for additional safety at
the Ohio track.
1) Put bright green lights at the finish of the timing traps.
2) Have a bright red light (maybe 300-400 feet
past the timing lights) turn on after a vehicle trips
the timing lights.
More warning to racers that
the finish lights have been passed.
YHS
Scott
Joe quickly responded.
(Dean Sabatinelli is also a PhD, and has been timed TWICE
at over 269 MPH at Loring on an SGR Hayabusa)
Scott,
I have asked Dean Sabatinelli for assistance in this matter and
three PH.D's have been contacted. Their specialties include noise,
annoyance and information processing, coding for visual displays,
human vision, perception, and visual performance and transportation safety.
I have contacted various manufacturers who produce safety lighting.
We have identified that at the half mile mark the track goes downhill
for not quite a half mile and then becomes level again. The red placards
get muted by the white concrete. The track faces the southwest
and the afternoon sun becomes a factor also.
Things we have learned:
Flashing lights are the best for capturing attention.
Every onset and offset drives the visual system.
Flashing lights presented at 5-8 per second have
the best attention capture properties.
There are very few folks out there with photo-sensitive
epilepsy - about 500 people in the entire country. It comes
on at puberty, so they typically know that they know they have it.
The flash rates that trigger reactions are fast; 12-18 per second.
Joe
(Dean Sabatinelli is also a PhD, and has been timed TWICE
at over 269 MPH at Loring on an SGR Hayabusa)
Scott,
I have asked Dean Sabatinelli for assistance in this matter and
three PH.D's have been contacted. Their specialties include noise,
annoyance and information processing, coding for visual displays,
human vision, perception, and visual performance and transportation safety.
I have contacted various manufacturers who produce safety lighting.
We have identified that at the half mile mark the track goes downhill
for not quite a half mile and then becomes level again. The red placards
get muted by the white concrete. The track faces the southwest
and the afternoon sun becomes a factor also.
Things we have learned:
Flashing lights are the best for capturing attention.
Every onset and offset drives the visual system.
Flashing lights presented at 5-8 per second have
the best attention capture properties.
There are very few folks out there with photo-sensitive
epilepsy - about 500 people in the entire country. It comes
on at puberty, so they typically know that they know they have it.
The flash rates that trigger reactions are fast; 12-18 per second.
Joe
Yes..
isiahstites
Registered
The lights are a good idea, particularly flashing lights, I would be lying if I said I have never questioned where the end of several tracks were.
As an ECTA motorcycle tech inspector, it always scares me when riders come through tech with the minimum of safety gear on. Even though the rule book allows it, it scares me. I am now a proponent of the neck-cervical collar for riders going faster than 175. I am also leaning towards a change in the boots rule and gloves rule. Road Race boots should be a common element and having well made gloves with all the Kevlar knuckle covers in place as well.
Scott's advice having racers watch over racers is a key component to racer safety. I haven't been to a speed that I consider dangerous to me yet though I'm sure it will come to me sooner rather than later. Recognizing that speed and then admitting that you have max-ed out is another issue all together. I dress for the crash, and pray it never happens.
The one thing that is always in the back of my mind when a racer has an issue on the course is, "did I over look something?" its a responsibility that the racer takes upon themselves to be sure they are as safe as possible when racing yet I feel its my job to make sure they haven't overlooked anything. But playing it safe is a subjective value to everyone.
I look forward to seeing everyone at the Tiger Racing tent at the motorcycle tech in area this coming Sept. at ECTA in Wilmington. It is our Motorcycle speed challenge. You still have to abide by the rule book for your speed class so get your bike ready and come out and have some fun.
Scott's advice having racers watch over racers is a key component to racer safety. I haven't been to a speed that I consider dangerous to me yet though I'm sure it will come to me sooner rather than later. Recognizing that speed and then admitting that you have max-ed out is another issue all together. I dress for the crash, and pray it never happens.
The one thing that is always in the back of my mind when a racer has an issue on the course is, "did I over look something?" its a responsibility that the racer takes upon themselves to be sure they are as safe as possible when racing yet I feel its my job to make sure they haven't overlooked anything. But playing it safe is a subjective value to everyone.
I look forward to seeing everyone at the Tiger Racing tent at the motorcycle tech in area this coming Sept. at ECTA in Wilmington. It is our Motorcycle speed challenge. You still have to abide by the rule book for your speed class so get your bike ready and come out and have some fun.
Offline Ken 12r
Rider
***
Posts: 42
Enthusiast
Re: Elvington results...
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2014, 06:36:26 AM »
I am sorry to report that Tony Foster sadly
passed away in his sleep last night at
Leeds General Hospital following his accident at Elvington.
He was a great Guy and will be much missed by
all his friends and our thoughts lie with his family at this sad time.
RIP Big Man.
Logged
Sorry too to report on Tony's death in England.
No mention of speed or circumstances yet, but we
are hoping that Ken 12R will offer some details to
help the rest of understand the situation, and to
help prevent a future occurrence.
This brings the total pavement deaths to six(6)
in six years - one per year.
Let's hope that no one in US racing passes away this year.
Well......
It now seems that (again) guys that go over 200 MPH
for a living think that's just too fast !
Putting the brakes on - MotoGP - Motor Sport Magazine
Do you think they have better brakes than we do ?
Do you think they have more practice
stopping from 200 MPH than we do ?
Even the WORLD CHAMPION crashes
at over 200 mph by not braking correctly.
How can we poor souls hope to get it right.....
It now seems that (again) guys that go over 200 MPH
for a living think that's just too fast !
Putting the brakes on - MotoGP - Motor Sport Magazine
Do you think they have better brakes than we do ?
Do you think they have more practice
stopping from 200 MPH than we do ?
Even the WORLD CHAMPION crashes
at over 200 mph by not braking correctly.
How can we poor souls hope to get it right.....
Link doesn't work for me
Putting the brakes on - MotoGP - Motor Sport Magazine
Maybe this one will load
Putting the brakes on - MotoGP - Motor Sport Magazine
Maybe this one will load
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