Guns!

[raydog]

So here on the org we have people that would take out a second mortgage on their home to build a metal room to store their weaponry (and laden on the door in weld bead is the 2nd Ammendment). Then we have folks that think everyone should turn in their guns in honor of a more peaceful world. The greater majority of citizens are somewhere in the middle.

I have a gun safe full of weapons and I'm not happy about the prospect of going to lower capacity magazines but I would do it if it became law. I have been an expert pistol and rifle shot and a firearms instructor. The Marines, the Coast Guard, the Los Angeles County Harbor Patrol, and Sheriff's Department. That being said, I will listen and consider ALL sides of this issue and will not stonewall my points of view. But I have a point of view as well and I believe it's grounded in real world experience...I am currently a high school teacher and to suggest teachers pack a firearm is absurd and uninformed, the farthest thing from their job description. My school district HAS a full police department with armed peace officers walking on campuses, riding motorcycles, bicycles and in police cars so I don't know why people act like that's a "new idea".

So, Raydog here, has these core beliefs on the issue....existing gun laws should be enforced, "stand your ground" laws don't work especially considering all 50 states already "allow the use of reasonable force" to counteract force used against you INCLUDING DEADLY FORCE. Certain weapons should not be allowed on the street without a FFL (too complex to discuss here but certainly "fully auto devices"). Mental health and privacy laws must be modified/rewritten for the common good. The NRA only represents a portion of it's membership re: it's latest positions, and is basically a gun manufacturer lobby organization. And finally, if you think the government will roll up to your house and people will remove your mass produced semi autos, revolvers, rifles, shotguns and crossbows, I think we are really far apart on this subject!

Just my opinions, probably not yours.

 

[dadofthree]

I think we're where we should be. Absolutely enforcement of current laws. I try as hard as I can to get the feds to adopt my gun cases. Federal courts don't play.

Unfortunately like the war on drugs a war on guns would be short lived and lost. The average officer in the street will do his job. It's those above him in the justice ladder that lets everyone down.

So we're left with letting the bad guys kill each other. Unfortunately good people get hurt and killed in that process.

 

[DevilDawg1]

I fully agree with enforcing the gun laws that are in place. How many gun laws are there now? I haven't a clue, I have heard there are several thousand.

My biggest misunderstanding is, if a person obtains a weapon illegally (which is against the law) will one more un-enforced law on paper make a difference.

Some say make it harder for people to get weapons, that doesn't change that it is already illegal for some people to own weapons, and it doesn't change a criminal buying a weapon from another criminal.

 

[captain]

The important thing here Doyle..... You are posting! Good to see you online...

 

[sixpack577]

YOUR school district HAS a full police force. Well that is great, seriously.
Consider how many schools don't have any full time officers. Or are like the high school where my wife teaches, have one officer for over 1200 students! One is better than none, but he/she has alot to pay attention to.
I don't think that the majority of teachers or staff should be armed either. And, I wouldn't want my wife having a gun on her, even though she IS pro gun, as well as good shot. In my mind, her being armed at school would just make her a target. I also don't think that she has the personality or "ever readiness" required for such, as she is just a teacher.
However, if someone like you with your background wanted to carry at school, then I'm all for it.
Ex-military or ex-police who is trained to be ready to react at a moments notice.
It's sad that our country has come to this point, but it could save lives.

 

[fallenarch]

Did you give up on bike build threads

No one will answer this: People aren't crazy or not crazy. Things change and stuff happens to drive people over the edge. How do you screen for this? There is a problem with that knid of power in the hands of a crazy person, I think we all agree with that. So what to do?

Since you stepped iinto the fray Doyle, can you answer that riddle?

 

[masterblaster]

I personally would like them to just remove the silly gun free zone crapola, if the teachers have a legal ccw permit for where they live fine, if they want to carry fine, if not that is fine too, don't publicize that easy targets are here come kill us with this stupid gun free zone law. It does hurt my heart that even one school district has a police force in this country, our kids should not be conditioned to see police everyday, its not good, these kids will grow to resent the cops in adulthood. Only time I ever seen a cop in my school years was when they were chasing me.

 

[captain]

Did you give up on bike build threads

No one will answer this: People aren't crazy or not crazy. Things change and stuff happens to drive people over the edge. How do you screen for this? There is a problem with that knid of power in the hands of a crazy person, I think we all agree with that. So what to do?

Since you stepped iinto the fray Doyle, can you answer that riddle?

I would think that if you are diagnosed with a disorder that some sort of central registry needs to be set up...

 

[masterblaster]

There is a disorder for everyone these days. I dont trust the government to start defining what is normal or not, I trust the psych doctors even less. Where would you put a combat Veteran with PTSD?

I do think we need to re establish mental heath networks again in this country, let them all out back in the 80's and family's that try to get help today have nowhere to go, the nutcase in Conn was about to be committed, the joker douche in Colo was under psych care, don't know details of either case but I can only guess these people should have been committed by their families, the ultimate control here is the family and family friends.

I would think that if you are diagnosed with a disorder that some sort of central registry needs to be set up...

 

[captain]

There is a disorder for everyone these days. I dont trust the government to start defining what is normal or not, I trust the psych doctors even less. Where would you put a combat Veteran with PTSD?

I do think we need to re establish mental heath networks again in this country, let them all out back in the 80's and family's that try to get help today have nowhere to go, the nutcase in Conn was about to be committed, the joker douche in Colo was under psych care, don't know details of either case but I can only guess these people should have been committed by their families, the ultimate control here is the family and family friends.

I would think that a soldier with PTSD would qualify for maybe being on a waiting period if he was being treated for it...

 

[fallenarch]

I would think that if you are diagnosed with a disorder that some sort of central registry needs to be set up...

So the government will know if your wife leaves you and your kid has an overdose you will crack and become unstable?

 

[masterblaster]

She gets it, only issue I have with what she said is that the vast majority of black people in America live in gun free cities and cannot legally own or carry guns.

You Can't Ban Evil - YouTube

 

[dadofthree]

I personally would like them to just remove the silly gun free zone crapola, if the teachers have a legal ccw permit for where they live fine, if they want to carry fine, if not that is fine too, don't publicize that easy targets are here come kill us with this stupid gun free zone law. It does hurt my heart that even one school district has a police force in this country, our kids should not be conditioned to see police everyday, its not good, these kids will grow to resent the cops in adulthood. Only time I ever seen a cop in my school years was when they were chasing me.

First off School Resource Officers are typically in my experience police light. Nobody is gonna waste a good resource in a school, mainly because schools have a bad habit of not wanting law enforcement to do their job. They don't want their school name in the headlines.

Secondly these officers are there because 50 - 60 years ago we decided to be progressive, we told our teachers they couldn't discipline bad students, and then we told parents that they couldn't discipline their children. Yes, oh yes the great Surrogate Daddy Uncle Sam would handle all that. Well that worked out just great didn't it. America is weak, dumb, and does not recognize authority and therefore lacks discipline.

A lot of children are raised from birth to fear and hate law enforcement. So you really don't need to be concerned with law enforcement causing feelings of ill will it the majority of kids it's there before they start headstart at the age of two.

Oh , I'm regretting posting this already

 

[captain]

So the government will know if your wife leaves you and your kid has an overdose you will crack and become unstable?

If your being treated for it yes...

 

[masterblaster]

No regrets man, thanks for the info, we have these resource officers here in Fla also, never seen one though.

First off School Resource Officers are typically in my experience police light. Nobody is gonna waste a good resource in a school, mainly because schools have a bad habit of not wanting law enforcement to do their job. They don't want their school name in the headlines.

Secondly these officers are there because 50 - 60 years ago we decided to be progressive, we told our teachers they couldn't discipline bad students, and then we told parents that they couldn't discipline their children. Yes, oh yes the great Surrogate Daddy Uncle Sam would handle all that. Well that worked out just great didn't it. America is weak, dumb, and does not recognize authority and therefore lacks discipline.

A lot of children are raised from birth to fear and hate law enforcement. So you really don't need to be concerned with law enforcement causing feelings of ill will it the majority of kids it's there before they start headstart at the age of two.

Oh , I'm regretting posting this already

 

[dadofthree]

So the government will know if your wife leaves you and your kid has an overdose you will crack and become unstable?

And banning assault weapons will do what in this situation ???

 

[raydog]

Why did I start this post?!!! Re: banning assault rifles....that's a real hard one. Yes, there are millions of handguns and assault rifles in the communities. Some suggest (and this is mathematically probable) that, as the overall weapons count is reduced over the years, there will be less deaths overall, that resulted from firearms. This isn't my opinion, it is about probability....total firearms coralate to total deaths therefore less total firearms equal less deaths. This mathematical point has nothing to do with bumpersticker cleverness (outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns, etc.). A significant quantity of shooting deaths/injuries are in the accidental shooting catagory. Yes, there are other ways to mitigate this like manditory training, annual qualifications, etc., but I'm just speaking to the overall math.
Hey, (this is important I think) there are some things in life YOU JUST CAN'T CHANGE, YOU CAN ONLY MANAGE. We must manage this somehow but one thing I know for sure....you all that think the government is always wrong, always evil and always against a prosperous society, have to get over that. I've proudly held 7 seperate government jobs, been honest and productive and worked around some great people as well. Every time we allow the government take a leadership role in something doesn't automatically mean bad things will happen. Both the private sector and the government is us, we the people and the more we reject one or the other, the more divided we get.....division is the road to destruction, understanding our differences and celebrating them is the road to stability and growth.

 

[twotonevert]

Why did I start this post?!!! Re: banning assault rifles....that's a real hard one. Yes, there are millions of handguns and assault rifles in the communities. Some suggest (and this is mathematically probable) that, as the overall weapons count is reduced over the years, there will be less deaths overall, that resulted from firearms. This isn't my opinion, it is about probability....total firearms coralate to total deaths therefore less total firearms equal less deaths. This mathematical point has nothing to do with bumpersticker cleverness (outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns, etc.). A significant quantity of shooting deaths/injuries are in the accidental shooting catagory. Yes, there are other ways to mitigate this like manditory training, annual qualifications, etc., but I'm just speaking to the overall math.
Hey, (this is important I think) there are some things in life YOU JUST CAN'T CHANGE, YOU CAN ONLY MANAGE. We must manage this somehow but one thing I know for sure....you all that think the government is always wrong, always evil and always against a prosperous society, have to get over that. I've proudly held 7 seperate government jobs, been honest and productive and worked around some great people as well. Every time we allow the government take a leadership role in something doesn't automatically mean bad things will happen. Both the private sector and the government is us, we the people and the more we reject one or the other, the more divided we get.....division is the road to destruction, understanding our differences and celebrating them is the road to stability and growth.

Doyle, I just cant get there with you. My legally obtained firearms which I am licensed by the state of Oklahoma to carry, and passed and FBI back ground check to aquire will not be used in any crimes, how about the firearms you own? So how is reducing the number of firearms I have going to reduce crime rates? They wont unless you count me defending myself as a crime, which I know full well some believe it is. For the sake of arguement, I will not debate the whole government thing, I am proud for you and the jobs you have held and you should be proud, but I dont trust the government as as far as I can throw an aircraft carrier.
OH, and one more thing, I dont own any Class III, NFA assult weapons. I just own the run of mill autoloading semi auto weapons. Assult weapons by definition are currently banned.

 

[raydog]

Doyle, I just cant get there with you. My legally obtained firearms which I am licensed by the state of Oklahoma to carry, and passed and FBI back ground check to aquire will not be used in any crimes, how about the firearms you own? So how is reducing the number of firearms I have going to reduce crime rates? They wont unless you count me defending myself as a crime, which I know full well some believe it is. For the sake of arguement, I will not debate the whole government thing, I am proud for you and the jobs you have held and you should be proud, but I dont trust the government as as far as I can throw an aircraft carrier.

James, I remember a residential burglary I once investigated, the poor victim, a good citizen, had about 42 various firearms stolen from his home, he thought they were secure and they wern't. Those weapons went into the streets into the hands of bloods, crips, 18th streeters, etc. Anyways, that's one example of a "leak" into the underworld of gun use and only one "little" home burglary I'm familiar with. I'm not a "take away your guns" guy and I already said existing laws could be very effective if enforced AND other measures are taken (mental health regulation, training, etc.). The truth is, I don't believe we can end the problem any more than we could stop teenagers from texting. It's about reducing by management in some way, but as long as true dialog does not occur, slaughters will just keep on happening.....seems pretty uncivilized to me.

 

[dadofthree]

Doyle, I just cant get there with you. My legally obtained firearms which I am licensed by the state of Oklahoma to carry, and passed and FBI back ground check to aquire will not be used in any crimes, how about the firearms you own? So how is reducing the number of firearms I have going to reduce crime rates? They wont unless you count me defending myself as a crime, which I know full well some believe it is. For the sake of arguement, I will not debate the whole government thing, I am proud for you and the jobs you have held and you should be proud, but I dont trust the government as as far as I can throw an aircraft carrier.

James, I remember a residential burglary I once investigated, the poor victim, a good citizen, had about 42 various firearms stolen from his home, he thought they were secure and they wern't. Those weapons went into the streets into the hands of bloods, crips, 18th streeters, etc. Anyways, that's one example of a "leak" into the underworld of gun use and only one "little" home burglary I'm familiar with. I'm not a "take away your guns" guy and I already said existing laws could be very effective if enforced AND other measures are taken (mental health regulation, training, etc.). The truth is, I don't believe we can end the problem any more than we could stop teenagers from texting. It's about reducing by management in some way, but as long as true dialog does not occur, slaughters will just keep on happening.....seems pretty uncivilized to me.

Gun ownership I imagine is through the roof over the last 20 years yet we see a 50% decrease in crime in that area. I hate to say it and I regret that my thinking is this slaughter you speak of will continue regardless of the coming attempt to limit 2nd amendment rights.