Help Picking Turbo Specs for ~250hp UTV Project

[nskyline34]

Don't be fooled by hp numbers, that Can-Am engine has literally nothing on a Busa engine.
A stock Gen1 engine makes about 170hp and 102 lb' of torque to the wheels.
Other than random 2nd gear issues(which you may never have), the thing is bullet-proof.
It redlines over 10k rpm, and the bike is capable of 0-60mph in about 2.5 seconds, can run a quarter mile in a high 9, and with electronic limiter removed, will go over 190 mph...that Can-Am engine can't do that...even if it was in a bike.
Increasing the rear sprocket size, or going a tooth lower on the front will increase acceleration, increase torque at lower rpm's, and not take away much from top end.
If this is a utility sxs, vs a sport sxs, it is also a little top heavy.
If you plan on driving in trails, beware trees, as you will go quicker than you can stop.
The Busa engine is very docile, and you can ride or drive around all day slowly, and it'll feel like what you have, just a cruiser, but put your foot in in, lol, and it's going to come alive...quickly.
They really come to life at 6k rpm.

This is exactly why I'm doing the engine swap - I think it will make the X3 absolutely AWESOME! I love the X3 UTV, but I want way more. And the cool thing about the hayabusa is that Geartronix makes a paddle shift system and auto-blipper setup for it so I can make it paddle shifted. That's my goal eventually, but first I need to get it together and make it work and prove the theory...

 

[sixpack577]

So what size turbo are we thinking would be good?

Not going to lie, that makes me feel a lot better knowing that theres a 'sure fire' fix kinda thing. Thank you.

What about the stock clutch in the busa? Should I do stiffer springs or....? I was also thinking it might not be a bad idea to leave some type of a 'weak link' in the system (clutch) so that it will slip before things get expensive. lol

You can go with heavier springs, especially for hard launches.
The Busa has what is called a 'back-torque limiter' clutch setup, and is not a true 'slipper clutch', and most drag-racers modify or replace the center locking mechanism in the clutch hub for instant engagement, which may or may not be ideal for you setup, but either way, a cheap and easy mod.
I would just go with heavier springs to start with.

 

[nskyline34]

no one has ever done this before and used the stock x3 transmission/transfer case (so you keep 4wd) and then use the busa transmission for shifting gears. I'm honeslty shocked no one has, but now that I'm in the middle of getting the busa output shaft connected to the x3 transmission input shaft...I can see why. lol been machining a lot of stuff lol

 

[sixpack577]

This is exactly why I'm doing the engine swap - I think it will make the X3 absolutely AWESOME! I love the X3 UTV, but I want way more. And the cool thing about the hayabusa is that Geartronix makes a paddle shift system and auto-blipper setup for it so I can make it paddle shifted. That's my goal eventually, but first I need to get it together and make it work and prove the theory...

@Bumblebee and I can both attest to the fact that quickshifters make things much more fun, and the acceleration so much better, zero lag between shifts.
It's an awesome part that you never knew you needed...until you try it...they are addictive.
That will be a great addition to your project.

 

[sixpack577]

no one has ever done this before and used the stock x3 transmission/transfer case (so you keep 4wd) and then use the busa transmission for shifting gears. I'm honeslty shocked no one has, but now that I'm in the middle of getting the busa output shaft connected to the x3 transmission input shaft...I can see why. lol been machining a lot of stuff lol

Cool stuff, I love custom made parts.
My dad is a now retired engineer, and I have always been fortunate for him to make replacement or custom parts for many bikes for me over the years.

 

[nskyline34]

You can go with heavier springs, especially for hard launches.
The Busa has what is called a 'back-torque limiter' clutch setup, and is not a true 'slipper clutch', and most drag-racers modify or replace the center locking mechanism in the clutch hub for instant engagement, which may or may not be ideal for you setup, but either way, a cheap and easy mod.
I would just go with heavier springs to start with.

The more and more I learn about the Hayabusa the more I absolutely love it. Lets create a bike so fast and powerful we are worried about killing our entire customer base, to the point where all manufactures make a handshake agreement to limit the bikes to 300 kph. Oh yea, also it makes a little too much power so we need to limit how much power it can deliver right off the rip so lets do a semi slipper clutch setup. I'm sorry but that's just badass that they did that. lol

I dont do hard launches - too hard on parts. I'm more of a fun through the rough stuff from 20-100mph kind of person. lol

I wasnt going to do a turbo yet, but I want to make sure the engine is mounted in the right place so I dont have to redo everything later. My plan was to just run it NA for a bit and prove the theory, then add a turbo, then once that's dialed paddle shifters. But I'm worried if I dont at least use a cheap turbo for mock up and have a turbo kit planned out, that I'll have to redo a LOT of work later. It could be good content - but no one like to watch to redo all kinds of things to move something 3"... lol

 

[nskyline34]

Cool stuff, I love custom made parts.
My dad is a now retired engineer, and I have always been fortunate for him to make replacement or custom parts for many bikes for me over the years.

I am kind of a retired engineer. I was an engineer for 10 years, quit and started a dirt work company. I couldnt get 2+ months off of work each year to go racing and what not so had to make a change. That said, I do miss having CAD for free...sucks having to pay for it now. lol The downside is you know you can ALWAYS make something work...its just how much money do you want to throw at it. Right now I'm trying to connect the busa engine and x3 trans with a chain, (I give it a 40% chance of working, 60% chance of failing, but comments section really wanted to see it). My backup plan is to machine a gearbox. lol

 

[sixpack577]

The more and more I learn about the Hayabusa the more I absolutely love it. Lets create a bike so fast and powerful we are worried about killing our entire customer base, to the point where all manufactures make a handshake agreement to limit the bikes to 300 kph. Oh yea, also it makes a little too much power so we need to limit how much power it can deliver right off the rip so lets do a semi slipper clutch setup. I'm sorry but that's just badass that they did that. lol

I dont do hard launches - too hard on parts. I'm more of a fun through the rough stuff from 20-100mph kind of person. lol

I wasnt going to do a turbo yet, but I want to make sure the engine is mounted in the right place so I dont have to redo everything later. My plan was to just run it NA for a bit and prove the theory, then add a turbo, then once that's dialed paddle shifters. But I'm worried if I dont at least use a cheap turbo for mock up and have a turbo kit planned out, that I'll have to redo a LOT of work later. It could be good content - but no one like to watch to redo all kinds of things to move something 3"... lol

You could always build it with room for the turbo, then add it later.
I understand where the engine will sit, and the space that's there, but the turbo itself doesn't take up much space.
And, even though alot of people run open exhausts, you can still run a full exhaust easily too.

 

[sixpack577]

I am kind of a retired engineer. I was an engineer for 10 years, quit and started a dirt work company. I couldnt get 2+ months off of work each year to go racing and what not so had to make a change. That said, I do miss having CAD for free...sucks having to pay for it now. lol The downside is you know you can ALWAYS make something work...its just how much money do you want to throw at it. Right now I'm trying to connect the busa engine and x3 trans with a chain, (I give it a 40% chance of working, 60% chance of failing, but comments section really wanted to see it). My backup plan is to machine a gearbox. lol

Yeah, I'm at 'work' now(nice lazy week before Christmas time, lol)
I use Solidworks, but design simple stuff, nothing too complex.

 

[nskyline34]

You could always build it with room for the turbo, then add it later.
I understand where the engine will sit, and the space that's there, but the turbo itself doesn't take up much space.
And, even though alot of people run open exhausts, you can still run a full exhaust easily too.

Not a bad idea. I would like to still have a turbo so I can make sure. Literally where the engine is at right now is awesome, but if I have to move the engine back 2" inches, it will have to go up by 5" (to clear the x3 trans) and the PLASTIC firewall is kind of close to where the turbo will be. I guess I could always order a GT28 from amazon, mock it up, and then return it. lol

But also, if you all think that the transmission WILL absolutely 110% hold up to the abuse (even if I have to do gears and shafts which is fine) then I'm almost good with just doing the turbo now assuming budget can handle it. I literally just need the turbo and BOV and tune. I have everything else and I could just do it all now. Just going to depend on my call with RCC. If I can get turbo specs and help on the base tune stuff, then I think I might just pull the trigger and do it now.

Like I said, I dont do drag racing as that's just hard on parts with the launch, but the off road abuse is what I worry about. Like I dont think burnouts are hard on parts because there's no grip so there's little drag apart from the initial snap to break the tires loose.

 

[nskyline34]

Yeah, I'm at 'work' now(nice lazy week before Christmas time, lol)
I use Solidworks, but design simple stuff, nothing too complex.

View attachment 1690577

Yea dirt work is done for the winter, so basically I have until the end of Jan to get this entire project done and filmed and edited into videos. lol I basically have been working 10-12h a day everyday on it for about a month. Kind of makes me miss having to go to work. I shouldnt complain tho - pretty dang lucky. God I miss solidworks and Catia - I'm stuck using Fusion 360 (budget) BUT it works for what I need and it works with the plasma table.

How much power can a stock busa engine handle RELIABLY? Like if this was a normal road bike and some one wanted an engine to go 20k miles, what hp level is 'safe'? (assuming timing and AFR is good?) Or what boost level, I think I read somewhere 6psi is max without a base gasket?

Also how hard is it to do the base gasket? I've built plenty of dirt bike engines, LS's and a couple cummins and Duramax diesels so not affaid of the work - more concerned with time. BUT easier to do that now vs once its all done and built. I am trying to design everything so its fast/easy to remove and change things though.

 

[nskyline34]

Just talked to RCC - super nice guy and really helpful.

He recommended a GT2871R or the disco potato: GT2860RS. Either will need an external WG as the internal gate on them will not keep up. Next question is - which one? lol

Disco Potato: GT2860RS
Compressor Wheel Inducer: 47 mm
Compressor Wheel Exducer: 60 mm
Compressor Wheel Trim: 62


Turbine Wheel Inducer: 54 mm
Turbine Wheel Exducer: 47 mm
Turbine Wheel Trim: 76 trim

GT2871R Specs:
Compressor Wheel Inducer: 53mm
Compressor Wheel Exducer: 71mm
Compressor Wheel Trim: 56


Turbine Wheel Inducer: 54mm
Turbine Wheel Exducer: 47mm
Turbine Wheel Trim: 76

I'm almost leaning towards the GT2860RS because it's a little smaller and might spool a little faster - and sounds like either turbo will make enough boost to blow up a stock engine so I think I'd rather a little faster spool?

Thoughts?

 

[sixpack577]

Yea dirt work is done for the winter, so basically I have until the end of Jan to get this entire project done and filmed and edited into videos. lol I basically have been working 10-12h a day everyday on it for about a month. Kind of makes me miss having to go to work. I shouldnt complain tho - pretty dang lucky. God I miss solidworks and Catia - I'm stuck using Fusion 360 (budget) BUT it works for what I need and it works with the plasma table.

How much power can a stock busa engine handle RELIABLY? Like if this was a normal road bike and some one wanted an engine to go 20k miles, what hp level is 'safe'? (assuming timing and AFR is good?) Or what boost level, I think I read somewhere 6psi is max without a base gasket?

Also how hard is it to do the base gasket? I've built plenty of dirt bike engines, LS's and a couple cummins and Duramax diesels so not affaid of the work - more concerned with time. BUT easier to do that now vs once its all done and built. I am trying to design everything so its fast/easy to remove and change things though.

If you upgrade internals, rods, valve train, etc, 400+whp is common and streetable.
Plenty of drag bikes in the 600+whp.
BigCCRacing in the UK has dyno'd nearly 1000whp.
The stock engine with a spacer should handle 300whp, how long it lives under boost, who knows.
You can go over 300whp on pump gas too.
But again, RCC is guy to give the final say.
What he says works the best on a stock engine, and at what point he says to build the motor, is what I would go with.

As for a spacer install, nuts and bolts simple, just make sure to time it correctly, and rotate the engine a few times after and recheck the timing marks.
Check the valve clearances, which at 20k miles are likely still all in spec.
Ask RCC if he would recommend new rings, keeping in mind they are plated cylinders(boring requires replating) but can be machine honed just to clean them for a re-ring.
I would do a compression check before disassembling the engine too, but at 20k miles, should also be fine.

 

[Dnyce]

ape says they use solid shift shafts and 60pound clutch springs in the engines that go into cars.

 

[VNE]

I wouldn't bother with a turbo if you don't want to do too much to the engine's internals, and you'll be stuck at around 4 psi I'm guessing and get about 270 hp. So for the huge cost of a turbo set-up, or kit, I don't see the point of adding a turbo for only 4 psi (stock engine "safe" limits). You have to build up the engine's internals if you want 300-325 let's be real.

IMHO I'd just port and polish the head and get a few more horsies out of it.

Otherwise, if you want a turbo and 300-325hp, and all of the fun woosh noises, you'll honestly need upgraded block studs, higher strength valve springs, lower compression pistons (forget head spacers as they screw up your top engine mount bolt alignment holes, so you'll need to measure for that before you measure your engine mounts if you're going with a spacer) and you may as well change the conrods too because stock rods can't handle more than 350hp at most and that's for a short period.

I already crunched the math once before and found it best to build the engine up now, not later, if you want that power level with the added benefit that it's easily upgradable to Stage 2 later on with a few mods.

 

[nskyline34]

Just talked to RCC - super nice guy and really helpful.

He recommended a GT2871R or the disco potato: GT2860RS. Either will need an external WG as the internal gate on them will not keep up. Next question is - which one? lol

Disco Potato: GT2860RS
Compressor Wheel Inducer: 47 mm
Compressor Wheel Exducer: 60 mm
Compressor Wheel Trim: 62


Turbine Wheel Inducer: 54 mm
Turbine Wheel Exducer: 47 mm
Turbine Wheel Trim: 76 trim

GT2871R Specs:
Compressor Wheel Inducer: 53mm
Compressor Wheel Exducer: 71mm
Compressor Wheel Trim: 56


Turbine Wheel Inducer: 54mm
Turbine Wheel Exducer: 47mm
Turbine Wheel Trim: 76

I'm almost leaning towards the GT2860RS because it's a little smaller and might spool a little faster - and sounds like either turbo will make enough boost to blow up a stock engine so I think I'd rather a little faster spool?

Thoughts?

Ended up ordering the smaller GT2860R turbo so it will spool real fast and ordered a 44mm external WG to help keep it from over speeding. Normally I make the mistake of going too big on the turbo size so this time I'm going to try going with the smaller 'wiser' choice lol

Now to figure out the tuning...

 

[202mphbusa]

Ended up ordering the smaller GT2860R turbo so it will spool real fast and ordered a 44mm external WG to help keep it from over speeding. Normally I make the mistake of going too big on the turbo size so this time I'm going to try going with the smaller 'wiser' choice lol

Now to figure out the tuning...

Wide band recording O2 sensor
there are many to chose from

Zeitronix I have used and find very durable and reliable OTHER THAN
the "Black Box recorder" seems to see no micro sd cards except the ones they sell
Chosing the correct rising rate regulator most of the tuning is very straight forward if sticking to 250hp

 

[nskyline34]

Wide band recording O2 sensor
there are many to chose from

Zeitronix I have used and find very durable and reliable OTHER THAN
the "Black Box recorder" seems to see no micro sd cards except the ones they sell
Chosing the correct rising rate regulator most of the tuning is very straight forward if sticking to 250hp

I'm planning on just using the RCC FMU regulator - feels like a good buy to keep things as simple as possible. For the tuning, sounds like a powercommander is all that's used? Just fueling adjustments done via throttle (TPS) vs RPM? How is the timing adjusted? I didnt think you could do timing with a power commander?

 

[202mphbusa]

I'm planning on just using the RCC FMU regulator - feels like a good buy to keep things as simple as possible. For the tuning, sounds like a powercommander is all that's used? Just fueling adjustments done via throttle (TPS) vs RPM? How is the timing adjusted? I didnt think you could do timing with a power commander?

I reflashed ECU. To pull the timing. And help compensate for 1000 cc injectors