Strife
Donating Member
Kid controls air traffic at JFK
- Thread starter Blanca BusaLess
- Start date
RYC1966
Donating Member
I would doubt that the child of an employee had a Id that allowed him where he was...that would be the first favor / wrong done...second is going allowing the kid to go on the air. I totally agree that it was harmless and no incident happend, but it surfaced for somebodies gain or some means to punish the parties involved along the way. Worse things have happened and there are probably better stroies for the news to report.
Poppy
Donating Member
What are the FAA rules regarding this? Anyone know? I doubt if it is allowable. I personally don't find it amusing and would be a little agitated if I found out that I or my wife was on that particular flight being guided by someone who demonstrated bad judgment. Cute or not it turned out to be a bad decision.
Rules are rules. Some people follow them and some people don't.....
Rules are rules. Some people follow them and some people don't.....
If I am not mistaken it was 'take your kid to work day' when it happened.
I understand rules are rules and certainly an ATC is a hi risk job but still the pilots he was directing had fun with it.
If it had been a prob I'm sure one of them would have said 'hey WTF is this kid doing on the radio ?'
but on the contrary all working parties involved enjoyed it and ten mins later forgot all about it.
I understand rules are rules and certainly an ATC is a hi risk job but still the pilots he was directing had fun with it.
If it had been a prob I'm sure one of them would have said 'hey WTF is this kid doing on the radio ?'
but on the contrary all working parties involved enjoyed it and ten mins later forgot all about it.
The Kid did alot better than a lot of ADULT ATC's I've been instructed by in the pass. Like the one giving me new headings while EATING A SANDWICH (and assumption here, but that's what it sounded like) 
Me, NO BIG DEAL ! If you think he was a problem, you should fly in AFRICA
Me, NO BIG DEAL ! If you think he was a problem, you should fly in AFRICA
Puggle
Registered
WHOAH! 
You all need to educate yourselves before making such sweeping, ignorant statements like:
"put hundreds of lifes (spelt lives mate) at risk"
"horrible potential that this scenario had"
the surgeon comment
Listen, you've heard from an actual atc, and now hear from a pilot. I have been flying aircraft since 1996 (14years) including helicopter, single engine cessna/warrior and the like, twin engines props and corporate jet charter aircraft. I have flown with the commercial liner traffic, above the commercial traffic, down near the ground with the little planes, in the outback where there is noone, and I trained at the busiest airport in the southern hemisphere.
You must understand that at every minute and in every single moment, the 'Pilot In Command' (PIC) has complete and utter control of the aircraft, and is completely aware of this fact. In fact it is taught in every syllabus around the world: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate (in that order). You can throw out the hollywood idea in your head that somehow the controller can say the wrong word, or miss a call and a hundred people instantly die.
I cannot count the number of times that I have had to land without a clearance due to radio congestion and the tower has subsequently thanked me for helping them out. All pilots know that by international law and local federal laws in every major western country that the final legal responsibility for the safety of their passengers and crew rests on the PIC NO MATTER WHAT the controller does, doesn't do, says or doesn't say.
In fact safety principles usually adopt a 'swiss cheese' model for accident investigation and prevention, often assuming that a controller is out of the picture. TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system) for example installed on all RPT (regular public transport) jet aircraft assume an idiot controller AND 4 idiot pilots (2 on each aircraft) and communicate with each other without human initiation to generate 'resolution advisories' (RAs). These 2 little computers, 1 in each aircraft, communicate and negotiate with each other then yell at the pilots of aircraft 1: "CLIMB CLIMB" and aircraft 2: "DESCEND DESCEND".
When we lose contact with ATC we have transponder codes; radar patterns to fly to get the attention of ATC; published radio failure procedures for most aerodromes; visual signals, flags, ground markings; air to air escort aircraft procedures.........I could go on.
The point is, we mostly look after ourselves. If some kid said to me 'cleared for takeoff' it is my responsibility to look down the runway, and make sure it is truly clear. Then if I take off and hit a plane halfway down the runway and kill 50 people because I didn't bother looking, guess who's responsible? Yah, me. Sure the controller gets into a lot of trouble, and probably has a mental breakdown, but I am responsible.
There are aerodromes all over Australia and the US (I assume US hasn't changed since 2000) where aircraft operate WITHOUT RADIOS and WITHOUT ATC!
So stop giving stick to the controllers about endangering lives, and start worrying about your US pilots turning up drunk, your maintenance personel not checking for missing bolts, you're pilots falling asleep and overflying the destination - all these things have happened recently. :learn: This guy endangered noone, and will be punished for breaking FAA rules. That's all.
Oh and in case you're interested, I have listened to the tapes. I've heard more cheekiness, irreverence and line walking, on a saturday at Bankstown. These tapes are extremely tame, safe and commonplace (minus the kid). I mean the Australian media beat up this kid for saying 'adios' to a mexican flight. They said the kid was endangering safety by joking with the pilots. Holy smoke, we do that all the time. Gday, adios, sayonara, goodmorning, goodnight.....
You all need to educate yourselves before making such sweeping, ignorant statements like: "put hundreds of lifes (spelt lives mate) at risk"
"horrible potential that this scenario had"
the surgeon comment
Listen, you've heard from an actual atc, and now hear from a pilot. I have been flying aircraft since 1996 (14years) including helicopter, single engine cessna/warrior and the like, twin engines props and corporate jet charter aircraft. I have flown with the commercial liner traffic, above the commercial traffic, down near the ground with the little planes, in the outback where there is noone, and I trained at the busiest airport in the southern hemisphere.
You must understand that at every minute and in every single moment, the 'Pilot In Command' (PIC) has complete and utter control of the aircraft, and is completely aware of this fact. In fact it is taught in every syllabus around the world: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate (in that order). You can throw out the hollywood idea in your head that somehow the controller can say the wrong word, or miss a call and a hundred people instantly die.
I cannot count the number of times that I have had to land without a clearance due to radio congestion and the tower has subsequently thanked me for helping them out. All pilots know that by international law and local federal laws in every major western country that the final legal responsibility for the safety of their passengers and crew rests on the PIC NO MATTER WHAT the controller does, doesn't do, says or doesn't say.
In fact safety principles usually adopt a 'swiss cheese' model for accident investigation and prevention, often assuming that a controller is out of the picture. TCAS (traffic collision avoidance system) for example installed on all RPT (regular public transport) jet aircraft assume an idiot controller AND 4 idiot pilots (2 on each aircraft) and communicate with each other without human initiation to generate 'resolution advisories' (RAs). These 2 little computers, 1 in each aircraft, communicate and negotiate with each other then yell at the pilots of aircraft 1: "CLIMB CLIMB" and aircraft 2: "DESCEND DESCEND".
When we lose contact with ATC we have transponder codes; radar patterns to fly to get the attention of ATC; published radio failure procedures for most aerodromes; visual signals, flags, ground markings; air to air escort aircraft procedures.........I could go on.
The point is, we mostly look after ourselves. If some kid said to me 'cleared for takeoff' it is my responsibility to look down the runway, and make sure it is truly clear. Then if I take off and hit a plane halfway down the runway and kill 50 people because I didn't bother looking, guess who's responsible? Yah, me. Sure the controller gets into a lot of trouble, and probably has a mental breakdown, but I am responsible.
There are aerodromes all over Australia and the US (I assume US hasn't changed since 2000) where aircraft operate WITHOUT RADIOS and WITHOUT ATC!
So stop giving stick to the controllers about endangering lives, and start worrying about your US pilots turning up drunk, your maintenance personel not checking for missing bolts, you're pilots falling asleep and overflying the destination - all these things have happened recently. :learn: This guy endangered noone, and will be punished for breaking FAA rules. That's all.
Oh and in case you're interested, I have listened to the tapes. I've heard more cheekiness, irreverence and line walking, on a saturday at Bankstown. These tapes are extremely tame, safe and commonplace (minus the kid). I mean the Australian media beat up this kid for saying 'adios' to a mexican flight. They said the kid was endangering safety by joking with the pilots. Holy smoke, we do that all the time. Gday, adios, sayonara, goodmorning, goodnight.....
Puggle
Registered
The Kid did alot better than a lot of ADULT ATC's I've been instructed by in the pass. Like the one giving me new headings while EATING A SANDWICH (and assumption here, but that's what it sounded like)
Me, NO BIG DEAL ! If you think he was a problem, you should fly in AFRICA
Tell me about it. And you should fly in Russia, it's a joke. Africa, Russia, Papua New Guinea, India (oh boy, you should see the *ahem... 'quality'... *cough... of Indian pilots we train here and send back to india to fly commercial jets.)
Got-Busa?
Donating Member
I'll have to agree that it's illegal as all heck what they did but not as big a deal as some of you are making it. Based on the comments of some, I would guess you have NEVER been in a ATC facility.
For those not familiar, there are two headset jacks that you plug into for controlling. One side is for the instructor (Dad in this case) and the other is for the trainee (kid in this case). The instructor is there at ALL times and has 100% override capability at any time. He instructed his son word for word what to say and it was relayed verbatim. If NOT, he over keys immediately for correction....
There isn't much room for error when saying "clear for takeoff" or "contact departure" but that's beside the point.
I wouldn't have allowed my child to do it but I don't exactly agree with firing the guy. He messed up BIG but then again there were probably more people watching, listening, and paying attention since the kids were there...
Your jaw is about to hit the floor then because it happens ALL THE TIME! There are people being trained by doctors or nurses with ZERO formal education or skills on what they are doing.......happens EVERY DAY hundreds of times!
They were in the Tower, you are looking out the windows not at a scope (only glancing at it if your Tower has one)...
Which ones, I'll call them and complain...
Are you serious, where do you work....? ???
BINGO!!! Agree 100%....
For those not familiar, there are two headset jacks that you plug into for controlling. One side is for the instructor (Dad in this case) and the other is for the trainee (kid in this case). The instructor is there at ALL times and has 100% override capability at any time. He instructed his son word for word what to say and it was relayed verbatim. If NOT, he over keys immediately for correction....
There isn't much room for error when saying "clear for takeoff" or "contact departure" but that's beside the point.
I wouldn't have allowed my child to do it but I don't exactly agree with firing the guy. He messed up BIG but then again there were probably more people watching, listening, and paying attention since the kids were there...
Your jaw is about to hit the floor then because it happens ALL THE TIME! There are people being trained by doctors or nurses with ZERO formal education or skills on what they are doing.......happens EVERY DAY hundreds of times!
They were in the Tower, you are looking out the windows not at a scope (only glancing at it if your Tower has one)...
I also saw nothing wrong with it. It may not have been the smartest thing to do but what can you do. I taxi aircraft here in ATL and I can tell you that I could understand that kid a lot better then some of our controllers.
Which ones, I'll call them and complain...
Are you serious, where do you work....? ???
BINGO!!! Agree 100%....
Anyone who has ever flown overseas to a 3rd world nation not to Paris on vacation would be happy to have that kid directing AND flying the plane !
Do you have any idea how swarthy an Air Libya pilot looks ?
Sudan, Bulgaria, Russia , Czech republic, Serbia, or the the like.
I have seen guys get on planes and I thought to my self 'little late to clean the toilet aint it'
and then the guy takes a left and walks into the cockpit...???
Do you have any idea how swarthy an Air Libya pilot looks ?
Sudan, Bulgaria, Russia , Czech republic, Serbia, or the the like.
I have seen guys get on planes and I thought to my self 'little late to clean the toilet aint it'
and then the guy takes a left and walks into the cockpit...???
BIG GUY
Registered
The dad is a clown and had no business letting little Johnny put hundreds of lifes at risk, just for his amusement. Kids have no business being in that work area let alone giving flight orders to pilots.
Hopefully the father gets fired, then the supervisor, who let this nonsense go on...not once, but two seperate occasions with two different brats ..........errrr kids, he definitely needs to get the axe.
Hope they had their fun. Hell the more I hear about this story the more it pisses me off. I think I might have been on one of those flights
I don't understand why you have such a problem with what this father did to make his sons day a whole lot better. I work for a school district and I see it everyday where parents take no interest in their kids life or don't care how they are doing or what they are feeling.
aussiekeeper
Registered
I don't fly commercial aircraft any more. I was married to a F/A. After hearing the stories of drunk, sleeping, hung over pilots, I decided to drive to where I am going whenever possible. Some of the stories she told me were enough to make me sick........The parties on layovers......ugh. I still have the spousal discount tickets available to me, after 25 years, I still have not used them.
But I still don't think the kid should have been doing dads job, cute or not.
If I were on the operating table and found out a surgeons kid did my heart surgery..................
But I still don't think the kid should have been doing dads job, cute or not.
If I were on the operating table and found out a surgeons kid did my heart surgery..................
Ranger
Registered
Cmon' seriously...
A better comparison would be a doctor letting his son take the pulse of a patient, thats about the same risk factor here.
aussiekeeper
Registered
The person was paid to do a job, he should DO IT. The kid would have been happy watching the dots on the screen.............But NOOOOOOO..
afterhours
Registered
can someone post the link...
i have been googling "major airline disaster at JFK" and cannot find anything about a kid working the control tower.
how many lives were lost?
how many planes crashed?
surely a catastrophe of this magnatude must be on CNN,MSNBC, etc.....
yet I see no video of burning planes or dead people.
i have been googling "major airline disaster at JFK" and cannot find anything about a kid working the control tower.
how many lives were lost?
how many planes crashed?
surely a catastrophe of this magnatude must be on CNN,MSNBC, etc.....
yet I see no video of burning planes or dead people.
Puggle
Registered
Got-Busa?
Donating Member
How many times does it need to be said, they were in the TOWER not the radar room working dots....
Don't worry, a GENOT was sent out about it. Now no person, family, friend, kids, whatever is allowed in an area were people are working LIVE traffic. If you don't have a goverment purpose in the area you are NOT allowed...
mofuggahere
Donating Member
WHOAH!
"put hundreds of lifes (spelt lives mate) at risk"
Thanks mate
