Living in a country founded by Geniuses but run by Idiots

I really didn't want to get into another one, but I happen to agree with this and had thought of it while I was reading the post : "'to act in the interests of the majority of its citizenry' -- I suspect the majority of the citizens of the US have never been personally confronted by firearm violence. If the violence (although tragic and deplorable) only affects a vast minority of the populous, how is reducing it in the interests of the majority? "

While your argument on wait periods is good it doesn't take into account the lives that have been saved because of them. Simply because wait periods work. No, there is no proof of that. A slight inconvenience, not what most reasonable people would think of as an infringement.

Of course this thread was about The Idiots versus the Second Amendment.
 
Wow, that clip is great. Amazing thoughts -- Is there another one where he finishes his remarks?

--Sky

It was, but the system is only part of the problem. The American Home is perhaps the bigger problem.
 
The problem with well intended "do gooding" is that there is no end to it......the next argument can always be made. Once people get out of diapers it starts to wear on them someone always telling them what is best for them. At least this holds true for the free spirited. Two Skys???????
 
The problem with well intended "do gooding" is that there is no end to it......the next argument can always be made. Once people get out of diapers it starts to wear on them someone always telling them what is best for them. At least this holds true for the free spirited. Two Skys???????

Let me say that do gooding got us here :banghead:
 
"the class that takes the ability of the citizenry to defend itself against a tryannical government" - Let me know when you own an Abrahms and a Predator Drone." allow me to answer this one... i offer you this... with 19 trillion in debt...IS OUR GOVERNMENT AFFORDING TO HAVE AN ABRAHMS OR PREDATOR DRONE EITHER?? to state this illogic of the liberal destrution of the 2nd amendment because we cant AFFORD to own...not that its ILLEGAL TO OWN (because it is not) to "defend" ourselves from a tyrannical government is someone who has never had to LIVE UNDER SAID SUCH GOVERNMENT AND UNDERSTANDS THAT ANYTHING THAT CAN BE USED TO FIGHT/DEFEND AGAINST SAID GOVERNMENT IS WORTH HAVING. our forefathers UNDERSTOOD the value of this and wrote the bill of rights based on their experiences. take this for consideration. â€￾The tank, the B-52, the fighter-bomber, the state-controlled police and military are the weapons of dictatorship. The rifle is the weapon of democracy. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military. The hired servants of our rulers. Only the government-and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws.â€￾
~Edward Abbey
 
If you live in a country founded by geniuses, that now is full of idiots, that elect their fellow idiots, they will get what they deserve. Darwin at work on a grand scale.

Argilbertson, you are pretty literate for a communist, I say this with respect.

Skydvr, as Oddball said to Moriarty, "enough with the negativity", all is not lost, this is America, we will still be America a thousand years from now.

Didn,t Hitler say about the same thing? I hate to say it but, violence seems to get the biggest,fastest,and best action to a question no matter what.
 
Using the "Abrams or Drone" isn't a good analogy. The Afghans and Iraqis did pretty good against tanks in their insurgencies. Since I was an Armor Officer, I actually do have some subject matter experience in this area. A Tank in a built up area fighting an insurgency is really good for shock effect and 'show', but crap for fighting in unless you are fighting other tanks or vehicles. The Tank needs infantry to protect it from small teams of individuals armed with RPG's, IED's etc. The armed drone is another matter (which is what all the commotion is about). Any civil war fought here would be fought mostly with small arms (i.e. Police/Swat); and even they would have a healthier dose of respect with an almost equally armed populace. Remember, our police LIVE in our towns; their families live there also; and they would most likely be severely outnumbered. Sure, they could mass at certain points in time, but the initiative would not be in their favor. I'm certainly NOT advocating armed resistance; however, an armed populace in a mass uprising would be more difficult to suppress than you think, even if sorely outgunned.
 
Hmmmmmm... 'well-thought regulations' -- when was the last time anything like a well-thought regulation came out of our federal govt?:laugh:

'to act in the interests of the majority of its citizenry' -- I suspect the majority of the citizens of the US have never been personally confronted by firearm violence. If the violence (although tragic and deplorable) only affects a vast minority of the populous, how is reducing it in the interests of the majority?

Majority Rule -- While many may believe that our form of government is based on Majority Rule, it is not. Our system of government is designed to protect the minority from oppression by the majority (and by extension the govt). That is the whole premise behind the Bill of Rights as well as many of the other amendments to the Constitution.

The biggest hole I see in the argument you present is it assumes the ability to regulate firearms; specifically that those already 'In the Wild' can be regulated in some way. It would be interesting to see how many people are injured or killed on a yearly basis by firearms that were legally purchased within 30 days of the incident as opposed to those that have been around longer. This would provide an idea of how tightly regulating the purchase and sale of firearms might affect firearm violence. If it is as I suspect, that the vast majority of incidents happen with firearms that have been in public hands for a long time, regulating the sale or limiting the types of new firearms will do nothing to prevent such tragedies.

In situations where municipalities are declaring it illegal to own firearms or firearm components and demanding that they be turned in for destruction, only those who are not likely a threat would turn them in, and probably only a subset of them at best. This would accomplish a few things in my opinion, none of the good;
-- Turn generally law abiding citizens into criminals; either because they were not aware of the law or how it applied to firearms or components they already owned, or because they chose to not turn their personal property in to the govt.
-- Leave firearms in the hands of those who intend violence; criminals will not voluntarily surrender firearms just because there is a new law that says they should. If they are already predisposed to violate laws against violence, they are not likely to be concerned about and additional offence.
-- Infringe upon the constitutionally guaranteed right of the individuals who desire to own a firearm. Where does this stop, today, firearms, tomorrow speech or religion, eventually all liberties. It can be a very slippery slope once we take the first step.

Ultimately, constitutionally, all of this is irrelevant. With reference to civil rights or liberties, there is no protection afforded 'society' anywhere in the document or any of its amendments. The protections of rights and liberty are all directed at the individual. This suggests that the framers of the document placed a higher value on the liberties of the individual than the society. These were people who had been subjected to tyrannical government and knew intimately what pain that brought to the individual. The purpose of the Constitution is to prevent tyranny within our shores. It is to protect us, individually. The more we or our proxy, the govt, chip away at it, the less protection it will afford us, until one day liberty is gone and we find our necks under the boot of a dictator. To borrow the language of Patrick Henry:

Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! -- I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! :brave:

--Sky

In reference to the great points you bring up, I'd ask you to consider my final line in the previous posting...the theoretical premise of the statement only reflects how the government should be looking at the issue, rather than the reality of what the government is really after in this whole thing.
 
It was, but the system is only part of the problem. The American Home is perhaps the bigger problem.

Totally agree, though I would say it more as that it is a problem with society as a whole no longer viewing education as a positive factor to social standing. When you look at the vast majority of what the public considers "celebrity" or "idols", for the most part the group is comprised of people who became wealthy through either physical attributes or dumb luck. We have simultaneously shifted our values towards monetary wealth, and changed the mantra on how to become wealthy.
 
"the class that takes the ability of the citizenry to defend itself against a tryannical government" - Let me know when you own an Abrahms and a Predator Drone." allow me to answer this one... i offer you this... with 19 trillion in debt...IS OUR GOVERNMENT AFFORDING TO HAVE AN ABRAHMS OR PREDATOR DRONE EITHER?? to state this illogic of the liberal destrution of the 2nd amendment because we cant AFFORD to own...not that its ILLEGAL TO OWN (because it is not) to "defend" ourselves from a tyrannical government is someone who has never had to LIVE UNDER SAID SUCH GOVERNMENT AND UNDERSTANDS THAT ANYTHING THAT CAN BE USED TO FIGHT/DEFEND AGAINST SAID GOVERNMENT IS WORTH HAVING. our forefathers UNDERSTOOD the value of this and wrote the bill of rights based on their experiences. take this for consideration. ”The tank, the B-52, the fighter-bomber, the state-controlled police and military are the weapons of dictatorship. The rifle is the weapon of democracy. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military. The hired servants of our rulers. Only the government-and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws.”
~Edward Abbey

I think you misunderstand the intent of my previous statement in this...I do not believe that we should give up our weapons because we cannot match the military force the government can bear, only that it would be foolish of us to believe that any uprising of the people could be won purely through force of arms.
 
Didn,t Hitler say about the same thing? I hate to say it but, violence seems to get the biggest,fastest,and best action to a question no matter what.

there are several problems with using violence as a teaching tool, mainly that it cannot unteach a behavior, only supress it. It also breeds resentment amongst those its used against, and sends the message to those people that violent acts are a reasonable response to percieved slights. These phenomena are clearly shown in the nature of the "War on Terror"; The actions by the people/government only seem to go away while we continuously maintain the threat of violence against said group, and our interventions tend to cause the creation of new enemies almost as quickly as we deal with the current ones.
 
Using the "Abrams or Drone" isn't a good analogy. The Afghans and Iraqis did pretty good against tanks in their insurgencies. Since I was an Armor Officer, I actually do have some subject matter experience in this area. A Tank in a built up area fighting an insurgency is really good for shock effect and 'show', but crap for fighting in unless you are fighting other tanks or vehicles. The Tank needs infantry to protect it from small teams of individuals armed with RPG's, IED's etc. The armed drone is another matter (which is what all the commotion is about). Any civil war fought here would be fought mostly with small arms (i.e. Police/Swat); and even they would have a healthier dose of respect with an almost equally armed populace. Remember, our police LIVE in our towns; their families live there also; and they would most likely be severely outnumbered. Sure, they could mass at certain points in time, but the initiative would not be in their favor. I'm certainly NOT advocating armed resistance; however, an armed populace in a mass uprising would be more difficult to suppress than you think, even if sorely outgunned.

I tend to think you're right, especially when you consider the conundrum that those people called upon by the government to put down said uprisings would go through. Do they obey their government to whom they have shown oaths and take action against their own citizenry, even though technically said action is a legal and "just" order? Or do they disobey a tyrannical government and forsake their oath of loyalty to the armed forces to obey the higher oath they swore to the people the armned forces was created to protect....how this plays out would determine the situation that follows. I'm honestly just hoping that we never have to find out.
 
Totally agree, though I would say it more as that it is a problem with society as a whole no longer viewing education as a positive factor to social standing. When you look at the vast majority of what the public considers "celebrity" or "idols", for the most part the group is comprised of people who became wealthy through either physical attributes or dumb luck. We have simultaneously shifted our values towards monetary wealth, and changed the mantra on how to become wealthy.
What changed our society ?
 
I think you misunderstand the intent of my previous statement in this...I do not believe that we should give up our weapons because we cannot match the military force the government can bear, only that it would be foolish of us to believe that any uprising of the people could be won purely through force of arms.

eh, its been done before with far fewer folks and against far more powerful weapons (of the time). If it came to that (and I hope it doesn't) the govt will have a hard time forcing their decisions on the folks tasked with taking the actions against their neighbors & friends. The president will not be able to use the military as a whole unless he could prove 100% that what he was asking them to do was lawful/legal in the eyes of the men & women that lead the forces....at all levels. Suffice it to say I don't believe anyone thinks an armed civilian vs govt battle would net any significant results. If anything it would likely put the entire planet into some level of civil war/global war.

Now on the topic of jobs. I say phooeeeyyy on the whole "there's no jobs" thing. There are PLENTY of industries that are hiring. PLENTY that have excess work with years of back log and no one currently nor anyone being spun up in the education system(s) to take those jobs in the future. I think what the issue is that folks are not being required to prove they are looking for work. They are given a good amount of money to sit on their collective asses and they know how long they can do so without fear of being without funds. Many are probably working off the books to subsidize their income, many are living beyond their former means simply because they managed to get more govt dole than they could earn.

Honestly, folks are lazy and have become even more so in the recent years. At a time when unemployment is actually higher than during the Great Depression, it amazes me that folks do not try to just do anything to make money. I've seen shows on the topic on HBO, CNN and other places that followed folks on UE. They found folks trying to find jobs that maintained their previous lifestyles in many cases, and why not the govt dole paid close to what they made. Instead of being forced to change their lifestyles, their living situations, their food/drink consumption, etc they are being allowed to muddle along.

In the Great Depression you had folks willing to do ANYTHING to earn a wage. The govt instituted several programs to get folks back to work instead of paying them to sit on their asses. Why can't we do the same today? If you are on UE for more than 3months, you have to go and work on projects for the govt to keep getting paid. The infrastructure of the country is in shambles, they say we cant afford to rebuild it because labor costs would kill them. Seems like we have a ready made work force that could be tooled up to repave roads, rebuild infrastructure and perhaps really make an impact. I can promise you one thing though. If you were to implement that type of program you would have two outcomes rather quickly. 1 - the folks that think they are better than manual labor WILL find jobs and 2 - those that had no real life skills will learn some that they can extend beyond whatever the govt program would allow.
 
I think we developed an education system that left out "practical" education. In the old one room schools, at least the kids learned to get water from the well, keep the fire burning, make something to eat. We became service oriented. People are warm that don't know how to make a fire, mobile that couldn't saddle a horse, "educated" and can't read.... I just read that 80% of NYC high school grads cannot read:banghead: People rely on lawyers to do their talking, the government to take care of them. Social skills went to heck because nobody gets the tar knocked out of them in the old 'school of hard knocks"
 
What changed our society ?

that's harder to say, though you can see the trend in deifying our athletes and wealthy starting in the 70s...I think what we've seen is that each successive generation wants it faster, and easier...the mantra of "work hard and success will come to you" is being replaced by "Get Rich or Die Tryin".
 
oh yeah, and folks that actually do something during the day, productive that earns them a living are proven to be happier, more productive members of society. And not productive as in finance but in other ways. Maintaining their property, doing things for/with family/friends/neighbors, participating in civic programs, helping other, etc. They are generally more healthy, positive and pleasant folks to be around. They have higher moral and feeling of self worth, which is something I think many folks on the govt dole lack today....hence the degradation of the American family unit. Just MY opinion but likely can be found in other places too :whistle:
 
that's harder to say, though you can see the trend in deifying our athletes and wealthy starting in the 70s...I think what we've seen is that each successive generation wants it faster, and easier...the mantra of "work hard and success will come to you" is being replaced by "Get Rich or Die Tryin".

while most of what you post seems to be counter to my general thoughts, you NAILED this one :thumbsup: Nicely done, I couldn't agree more :beerchug:
 
eh, its been done before with far fewer folks and against far more powerful weapons (of the time). If it came to that (and I hope it doesn't) the govt will have a hard time forcing their decisions on the folks tasked with taking the actions against their neighbors & friends. The president will not be able to use the military as a whole unless he could prove 100% that what he was asking them to do was lawful/legal in the eyes of the men & women that lead the forces....at all levels. Suffice it to say I don't believe anyone thinks an armed civilian vs govt battle would net any significant results. If anything it would likely put the entire planet into some level of civil war/global war.

Now on the topic of jobs. I say phooeeeyyy on the whole "there's no jobs" thing. There are PLENTY of industries that are hiring. PLENTY that have excess work with years of back log and no one currently nor anyone being spun up in the education system(s) to take those jobs in the future. I think what the issue is that folks are not being required to prove they are looking for work. They are given a good amount of money to sit on their collective asses and they know how long they can do so without fear of being without funds. Many are probably working off the books to subsidize their income, many are living beyond their former means simply because they managed to get more govt dole than they could earn.

Honestly, folks are lazy and have become even more so in the recent years. At a time when unemployment is actually higher than during the Great Depression, it amazes me that folks do not try to just do anything to make money. I've seen shows on the topic on HBO, CNN and other places that followed folks on UE. They found folks trying to find jobs that maintained their previous lifestyles in many cases, and why not the govt dole paid close to what they made. Instead of being forced to change their lifestyles, their living situations, their food/drink consumption, etc they are being allowed to muddle along.

In the Great Depression you had folks willing to do ANYTHING to earn a wage. The govt instituted several programs to get folks back to work instead of paying them to sit on their asses. Why can't we do the same today? If you are on UE for more than 3months, you have to go and work on projects for the govt to keep getting paid. The infrastructure of the country is in shambles, they say we cant afford to rebuild it because labor costs would kill them. Seems like we have a ready made work force that could be tooled up to repave roads, rebuild infrastructure and perhaps really make an impact. I can promise you one thing though. If you were to implement that type of program you would have two outcomes rather quickly. 1 - the folks that think they are better than manual labor WILL find jobs and 2 - those that had no real life skills will learn some that they can extend beyond whatever the govt program would allow.

We have made it "too comfortable" for people not to work. When you can go to peoples houses supported by welfare and WIC, and they have cell phones, full screen TV's and Xboxs, beer/cigs, then you 've got to figure they are making poor choices. And raising the minimum wage will make it worse, not better.

I could solve the unemployment problem by at least 2 percentage points right now. After so many months of unemployment (say a year) start lowering the payout by 5 or 10% a month; not enough to immediately create a crisis, but enough to get someone's attention and tighten the screws. Eventually, we will find the point where people would rather GET A JOB, and it will be fairly easy statistically to find. THAT will be the equilibirum point.
 
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