MCN ZX-12 Article

[Guest]

Where was Slam back when we needed him??!!
We could have let him have his way with the zx12 BS posters that have antagonized us since last spring and just kicked back and laughed! Good job Slam - give em' hell and take no prisoners!! [applause]

The current crop of greenies are much more rational than the old - especially Redelk so be fair. Sure wish Slam had been here earlier. Wait till he gets a load of NinjaNag! Most of us are too war weary to waste our time anymore. And before anyone gets too upset I'm just killing time in a snowstorm so chill!



[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 27 January 2000).]

 

[OB_johnnyboy]

OK, let's think rationally here:

1. The 12 is practically the same weight as the busa (give or take a few pounds)

2. It is significantly narrower, with the airflow at least as smooth as the Busa (wings, etc)

3. It makes about 20 Hp more than the Busa at top speed (assuming 10% increase at top speed, much more efficient ramair)

4. The wheelbase is shorter.

If we all agree on the above 4 points, then we must logically expect the 12 to:

a. be more nimble than the Busa
b. accelerate faster (IF the front wheel behaves)
c. have higher top speed (stability apart)

What's wrong with that reasoning? hell, it's a newer bike, you'd expect it to be a *bit* better....

 

[OB_turbo1300]

Especially after they held it back for a year just for those purposes. How could it not be a better bike after they saw the busa and went back to the drawing board for atleast 12 months. I think the question is for the price difference which is the better bike dollar for dollar. We all know that the busa is stable at high speeds. But we don't know if Kaw is going to be making recalls or not. Both bikes are at there prime but which is the better bike for your buck is the real question. There is alot you can do to the busa for the difference of the two bikes.

just my two cents!

 

[OB_Rick]

Omega was being sarcastic, he thinks most members of this site are too defensive and have something to prove. It's obvious to me. I doubt you'll see him post here again.

 

[OB_johnnyboy]

Turbo1300, I agree.

I'm in the UK, where both bikes will cost about the same (much more than what you guys pay).

But if you pocket the price difference over there ($1500?) and add the cost of the obligatory Muzzy exhaust (catalyst? give me a break!) then you've almost paid for a Mr Turbo kit for the Bus.
Well, no contest then, but we're not comparing stock bikes any more, are we?

 

[Guest]

JohnnyBoy - I'll play:


OK, let's think rationally here:
1. The 12 is practically the same weight as the busa (give or take a few pounds)

[the 12 is supposed to be a FEW pounds lighter but not > ~10 lbs. The numbers listed for the weight on the 12 have changed at least once and we still don't know for sure what the production 12 actually weighs. Rider body weights often vary by more than 10 lbs as well. 50 lb weight difference of bikes would be more considerable and noticable. There will be alot of 12's with heavy riders on the street that will weigh MORE than Busas with less heavy riders due to the small weight differences of the bike. Even different amounts of fuel in the tanks of the two bikes would change the weight advantage - even if the riders weighed the same! PARTIAL ASSUMPTION and a point we may agree on]

2. It is significantly narrower, with the airflow at least as smooth as the Busa (wings, etc)

[We have plenty of specifications on the Cd of the Busa but nothing has ever been published or claimed for the 12 - TOTAL ASSUMPTION]

3. It makes about 20 Hp more than the Busa at top speed (assuming 10% increase at top speed, much more efficient ramair)

[According to you ZX-12 supporters the 12 that R Gadson had dynoed in the 160's to the rear wheel. Was it 163, 167? There are stock Busas making 160+ RWHP - that we know for fact] Are you revising the 12 rwhp again? What about Gadson's dyno numbers?]

[We have lots and lots of dyno numbers for the Busa but that is without the ramair. The few dynos that simulate ram air can't produce enough air to feed a Busa as it would be on the road. As far as the production zx12 no dyno numbers with or without ram air have ever been publish by an independent source or officially released by Kaw. If the Busa had no ramair at all we could expect large differences because of the 12 ram air but to assume such a large difference based on the different designs of ram air between two bikes is really stretching. TOTAL ASSUMPTION]

4. The wheelbase is shorter.

[Apparently so but the specs for the wheelbase have changed at least once so far and we still don't know for sure what the production model measures. PARTIAL ASSUMPTION]

If we all agree on the above 4 points, then we must logically expect the 12 to:

[For all of us to agree on the above 4 points we must assume facts NOT proven. It's mostly hypothetical and based on ASSUMPTION. There's that word again. If we are going to agree on the 12 assumptions then why not assume that the 2001 Busa will make 30 more hp, have better ramair, weigh 15 lbs less and blow the 12 into the weeds?]
Catching my drift now?

a. be more nimble than the Busa
b. accelerate faster (IF the front wheel behaves)
c. have higher top speed (stability apart)



[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 27 January 2000).]

 

[OB_slam]

Those are good points Todd. It's just what I'm trying to say. Some Kawi guys are running around yelling out assumptions and are thinking that they are facts.

I want to see the dyno chart when a showroom ZX-12R is rolled off the showroom floor onto a dyno. Then let me some HP/Torque figures. Let me see how much the 12R weighs when it's rolled off a showroom onto a scale. Enough with these hyped up figures and pre-production models.

Turbo1300, mentioned a very good point earlier talking about which is "more bike for your buck." I was going to mention this earlier but I wanted to save it for a defense against any attacks from Kawi fans after they read my previous post. With the money you save from getting a Busa over a 12R you not only get a bike with better build quality but if you turn and invest that money in mods you have a 12R eating Busa(assuming a stock Busa wont eat a 12R). Also please stop referring to the 12R as a nimble bike. No, I have not ridden the 12R so how can I say it wont be nimble!?! Well for starters like I said before it's heavy! I don't care if it has the smallest wheelbase in the world it's not a canyon carving bike. Any potential 12R buyers that think they're bike is gonna kick everyone's a$$ in the twisty roads needs to be beat over the head repeatedly with a "stupid stick." Hhhmmm what exactly is the 12R for then? If it's too heavy to make a great canyon bike...wheelbase too short to make it a very good dragbike...wheelbase again to short for very good high speed stability....WHAT DA HELL IS THIS MACHINE BUILT FOR?? Oh maybe for wheelie fans that love to ride wheelies down the freeway...Well if that's the case I'll take any 12R rider on in a wheelie contest and I'll get back on my '99 R1. I want to hear from a 12R fan who has seen the 12R in person! I want to hear from a 12R fan who sat on the 12R at a bike show! Can you honestly say that when you saw this bike in person you were impressed with the quality? When you sat on it did it not feel like there were a few 100lb barbell weights under that "fake gas tank." Yes I'm calling out to you 12R guys that have seen the bike in person. Tell me what you thought of it. I know guys that had a deposit on the 12R but then REMOVED IT after they saw the bike in person!!!

 

[OB_ROCKMAN]

Slam What do u really care if the ZX12R is a good bike or a bad bike??? Does it really make a difference in your life what the bike does? It seems like you almost take the very existence of the machine as a personal insult or something...