more 12 stuff
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OB_KawAbuser
Registered
Sherm I think it's time for you to design some expensive Mod's for the new Kaw. You seen to have ZX on the brain, "Get a hold of your senses Man".
The Green Klingon Warship is still a light year away.
The Green Klingon Warship is still a light year away.
G
Guest
There has already been a shoot-out between the Hayabusa, 'XX', and ZX12 done by a bike magazine in Japan. Sorry but I couldn't read the article to find the result. I did notice the power at crank was 182, not too far above the Busa.
Additionally there is already 3 different after market exhaust systems, and also a mod for the angle of that little side wing to increase down-force.
Still not seen one in the show-rooms, but there are plenty of Y2K Busas around.
http://www.dazee.net/bikes/others/shootout2.jpg
[This message has been edited by dazee (edited 16 December 1999).]
Additionally there is already 3 different after market exhaust systems, and also a mod for the angle of that little side wing to increase down-force.
Still not seen one in the show-rooms, but there are plenty of Y2K Busas around.
http://www.dazee.net/bikes/others/shootout2.jpg
[This message has been edited by dazee (edited 16 December 1999).]
G
Guest
It's obviously a doctored picture, I mean the Blackbird is up with the other 2 bikes 
OB_JPWoloch
Registered
Plus, there's a split in the picture at the pavement.
OB_gsx1300rguy
Registered
207mph Holy s,h,i,t!
OB_Dr Busa
Registered
.....indicated.
I can't see why anyone here would get worked up about a rumor. Even if it turns out that the ZX12 beats the H in top speed by 10 mph, 1/4 mile by .3 sec, and zero to 100 by .5 sec who cares.
We all bought our GSX1300R's because we liked the looks, the color schemes, the comfy seat,the high tech sidestand etc etc. We're gonna stick with the Suzuki regardless of how it compares with other bikes. Some motorcyclist may chase after the latest and fastest hero bike, but not us. Its just not our way.
And anyone who says the Y2K worldwide Busa rally will be held in a MacDonalds parking lot in North Bergen NJ doesn't know us very well.
The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.(I think I heard an R1 forum guy say that when the first Hayabusa articles came out.)
We all bought our GSX1300R's because we liked the looks, the color schemes, the comfy seat,the high tech sidestand etc etc. We're gonna stick with the Suzuki regardless of how it compares with other bikes. Some motorcyclist may chase after the latest and fastest hero bike, but not us. Its just not our way.
And anyone who says the Y2K worldwide Busa rally will be held in a MacDonalds parking lot in North Bergen NJ doesn't know us very well.
The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.(I think I heard an R1 forum guy say that when the first Hayabusa articles came out.)
OB_turbo1300
Registered
and you all so have to keep in mind if suzuki yanked the busa off the market for a year and did just R&D on it it would be beating the Norton bike if there was a Nemisis and ZX12. When kaw. did that, that was the greatest compliment in sport bike history to suzuki. Oh, i have a product that i am getting ready to release but since i have seen yours i will have to work on mine some more for a whole nother year? can you imagine the turd they were getting ready to release? nuff said!
[This message has been edited by turbo1300 (edited 16 December 1999).]
[This message has been edited by turbo1300 (edited 16 December 1999).]
G
Guest
I've come to the conclusion that someone is obsessed with another bike. I still wonder if you didn't buy the wrong bike Sherm?! Do you constantly post Busa info on the ZX-12 boards?
I think you must get a kick out of stealing candy from kids then chastising them when they cry.
[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 16 December 1999).]
I think you must get a kick out of stealing candy from kids then chastising them when they cry.
[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 16 December 1999).]
I haven't seen Sherm at the 12R board, so I guess he's not completly lost. I think, both Turbo and Sherm are right. It is the greatest compliment to have a competing manufacturer pull a bike, they had already done couple of years of R&D on, for another year... SOLELY due to the Hayabusa. If that doesn't speak volumes, I don't know what does.
I also think that "magazine numbers" only prove something in the "stalls of Sonic Drive-Ins" (or jr. high school bathrooms). With over a year's experience on the only hyperbike out there (for now), 'busa riders will be chewing up 12R guys, no matter what the "numbers" say.
Unless the rider has a lot of 'busa experence, the 12R guy will have NO IDEA on what he's (or she's) gotten into. I don't care what they might have ridden before (except a 'busa). Come on, Todd... when you first rode your 'busa, weren't you just "a little suprised" about the awesome power? Did you feel that you'd "mastered" the bike in a week?
Don't take this as a "dig", Todd. I'm not trying to "prove" who's right or wrong. Just when you think about it, us 12R guys got a lot to learn with a new bike and some of the lessons will come from the tail lights of a 'busa (for awhile).
I also think that "magazine numbers" only prove something in the "stalls of Sonic Drive-Ins" (or jr. high school bathrooms). With over a year's experience on the only hyperbike out there (for now), 'busa riders will be chewing up 12R guys, no matter what the "numbers" say.
Unless the rider has a lot of 'busa experence, the 12R guy will have NO IDEA on what he's (or she's) gotten into. I don't care what they might have ridden before (except a 'busa). Come on, Todd... when you first rode your 'busa, weren't you just "a little suprised" about the awesome power? Did you feel that you'd "mastered" the bike in a week?
Don't take this as a "dig", Todd. I'm not trying to "prove" who's right or wrong. Just when you think about it, us 12R guys got a lot to learn with a new bike and some of the lessons will come from the tail lights of a 'busa (for awhile).
Tinhead - You said it all, concerning squids on Kaws. I can't count the times I was embarassed when a bunch of squids ride by on one wheel... in traffic. Cages swerve, lock up brakes, horns honk and then all the folks in cages look at me since my bike "looks" like theirs. Not that they are all on Kaws, there'll be a few F3's and an occassional GSXR. The green Kaws just seem to be the ones doing the stupidest s***. I got over 65K on my '97 7R and have seen it WAY TOO MANY times.
Rick - Minor in aerodynamics? I REALLY don't doubt that you do have some education in aerodynamics. Still, the 12R's bodywork design was created in the wind tunnels of the Kawaja Gifu Engineering Co. (KHI's aircraft design division). KGE has designed military aircraft, helicopters and various rockets that are used by several nations (including the US). They spent over a year on the design of the 12R's aerodynamic configuration. To imply that aspects of the designs were "after thoughts" or "just thrown on" is a little "off base".
I'm sure, with your education, you realize that ALL motorcycles (busa included) have the drag Cx of a "brick" and can't even compare to a Ford Taurus. Aprilia or MV Augusta (who also has extensive aircraft experience) made some claims that their bike had a lower Cx than various sports cars. This claim was quickly withdrawn when it was found they had not figured the bike's Cx in the same manner normally used (something to do with "frontal area", I believe).
You, of all people, should realize that what is truely an aerodynamic benifit, might not appear to be aerodynamic at all. I'll will admit, you are, unquestionably, more knowledgable than I, when it comes to aerodynamics. I haven't had any formal education in that science. I just think that your statement, sans statistics, is a biased guess.
[This message has been edited by redelk (edited 17 December 1999).]
Rick - Minor in aerodynamics? I REALLY don't doubt that you do have some education in aerodynamics. Still, the 12R's bodywork design was created in the wind tunnels of the Kawaja Gifu Engineering Co. (KHI's aircraft design division). KGE has designed military aircraft, helicopters and various rockets that are used by several nations (including the US). They spent over a year on the design of the 12R's aerodynamic configuration. To imply that aspects of the designs were "after thoughts" or "just thrown on" is a little "off base".
I'm sure, with your education, you realize that ALL motorcycles (busa included) have the drag Cx of a "brick" and can't even compare to a Ford Taurus. Aprilia or MV Augusta (who also has extensive aircraft experience) made some claims that their bike had a lower Cx than various sports cars. This claim was quickly withdrawn when it was found they had not figured the bike's Cx in the same manner normally used (something to do with "frontal area", I believe).
You, of all people, should realize that what is truely an aerodynamic benifit, might not appear to be aerodynamic at all. I'll will admit, you are, unquestionably, more knowledgable than I, when it comes to aerodynamics. I haven't had any formal education in that science. I just think that your statement, sans statistics, is a biased guess.
[This message has been edited by redelk (edited 17 December 1999).]
G
Guest
This might be a good time to post some info on bike aerodynamics that I posted last July on the mailing list? We never did find all the information on the two bikes we were discussing at the time. (XX, Busa) I can't even begin to address the 12 since I've not seen any numbers published for it. Rick - feel free to add any info/insight that you may have picked up.
--------------------------------------------
I was reading the June99 Cycleworld report
on the Busa (for the 10th time) and they devoted a good amount of print to drag coefficients on bikes and the importance it provides. Here's a blurb:
[begin quote]
"Unfortunately, that conflict between styling and function is an ongoing battle. Lowdrag isn't achieved by sharped-nosed
"penetration," as many assume, but by leaving the smallest possible hole in the air behind the bike. And that means keeping the airflow attached to a motorcycle past the bike's point of maximum width, allowing the air that has been accelerated out of the way by the bike's nose to slow back down and fill in the space behind the bike. The difficulty in doing that is the pressure gradient along that airflow path is from low pressure to higher, so cajoling the air to follow is much like pushing a rope. It can be done, but it must be done carefully and smoothly, or the air tumbles away in turbulence leaving a big low-pressure hole hehind the bike and accordingly high drag.
And unfortunately, the shapes that work don't always match up with styling expectations. Not surprisingly, the machines with the LOWEST drag - the Buell RR1000 and the Suzuki HAYABUSA- depart the farthest from those angular shapes that work bestat Mach II on supersonic fighters, and cleave closest to those gental curves and tapers that parted the air for DC-3s some 60 years ago, and still work well on subsonic vehicles today."
[end quote]
They also list the Hayabusa with a CdA of around 2.9 square feet [coeffficient Cd times actual frontal area A] and
a Cd of about 0.56
The Buell RR1000 is listed with a Cd of 0.50, effective frontal area of 2.7 square feet. Erik Buell and company say their engineers have yet to measure a street going machine with a lower drag coefficient than the RR1000.
There's also a lot of info about the calculations and numbers used by bike manufacturers too. Article says that most
motorcycle companies resist quoting the drag coefficients of their products because the numbers look so poor compared to cars.
That leads to practices such as Honda's a few years ago, referring to CBR1000 drag properties in unspecified units and
numerical values that could not be related to anything. Not to mention the popularity of giving out the CdA in square meters
while forgetting to mention the units because the resulting numbers just happen to look like good automotive drag coefficients.
--------------------------------------------
I was reading the June99 Cycleworld report
on the Busa (for the 10th time) and they devoted a good amount of print to drag coefficients on bikes and the importance it provides. Here's a blurb:
[begin quote]
"Unfortunately, that conflict between styling and function is an ongoing battle. Lowdrag isn't achieved by sharped-nosed
"penetration," as many assume, but by leaving the smallest possible hole in the air behind the bike. And that means keeping the airflow attached to a motorcycle past the bike's point of maximum width, allowing the air that has been accelerated out of the way by the bike's nose to slow back down and fill in the space behind the bike. The difficulty in doing that is the pressure gradient along that airflow path is from low pressure to higher, so cajoling the air to follow is much like pushing a rope. It can be done, but it must be done carefully and smoothly, or the air tumbles away in turbulence leaving a big low-pressure hole hehind the bike and accordingly high drag.
And unfortunately, the shapes that work don't always match up with styling expectations. Not surprisingly, the machines with the LOWEST drag - the Buell RR1000 and the Suzuki HAYABUSA- depart the farthest from those angular shapes that work bestat Mach II on supersonic fighters, and cleave closest to those gental curves and tapers that parted the air for DC-3s some 60 years ago, and still work well on subsonic vehicles today."
[end quote]
They also list the Hayabusa with a CdA of around 2.9 square feet [coeffficient Cd times actual frontal area A] and
a Cd of about 0.56
The Buell RR1000 is listed with a Cd of 0.50, effective frontal area of 2.7 square feet. Erik Buell and company say their engineers have yet to measure a street going machine with a lower drag coefficient than the RR1000.
There's also a lot of info about the calculations and numbers used by bike manufacturers too. Article says that most
motorcycle companies resist quoting the drag coefficients of their products because the numbers look so poor compared to cars.
That leads to practices such as Honda's a few years ago, referring to CBR1000 drag properties in unspecified units and
numerical values that could not be related to anything. Not to mention the popularity of giving out the CdA in square meters
while forgetting to mention the units because the resulting numbers just happen to look like good automotive drag coefficients.
Todd, I have no interest in getting a 12, and I love the Hayabusa. The H and the R1 I had before it are both capable of performance that is way way over my abilities. Actually, the bike that interests me the most this year is the Kawasaki WS650 - the 60's Triumph look alike. It looks like a relaxing fun bike to ride.
I do steal candy from children whenever I get a chance, but its because I have a sweet tooth and am too cheap to buy my own.
And lets face it, most of the .orgs love to talk bikes and buy bikes. Brand loyalty is not the thing that holds us together.
Gee, if you flame me like this over a minor detail I wonder what you all would do to a bad cop, if you found one.
[This message has been edited by sherm (edited 17 December 1999).]
I do steal candy from children whenever I get a chance, but its because I have a sweet tooth and am too cheap to buy my own.
And lets face it, most of the .orgs love to talk bikes and buy bikes. Brand loyalty is not the thing that holds us together.
Gee, if you flame me like this over a minor detail I wonder what you all would do to a bad cop, if you found one.
[This message has been edited by sherm (edited 17 December 1999).]
G
Guest
Well you may have noticed that FC and I have never been close!
Redelk - I'm still surprised bt the Busa's power (and hopefully respectful). To be honest I still haven't mastered the Busa and I'm not sure I ever will - at least not the way I would like. I'm probably better than I think but after watching the Mach2 video I feel like a novice again! Don't worry about offending me - you're very friendly compared to some. You're probably right about rider skill and new riders on the 12. I doubt I will ever see one where I'm at. (I'm still looking for a Busa other than my own too)
Sherm - I was trying to be diplomatic in this season of good will. Didn't realize you were so delicate. Unfortunately you also missed my point which is this:
If you plan on continuing to post items
[more rumors on top of the multitudes already posted] which have been well known to cause the biggest and longest controversy and animosity from both sides on this site then don't be surprised when you receive negative reactions. To be blunt: you've been on this site long enough to know what happens when these unsubstantiated rumors are posted which is why I suspect you may enjoy inflaming the masses then chewing on their butts when they react. I thought our members were pretty good natured about this most recent post. Appears to me you have a chip on your shoulder or perhaps just pulling our chains for fun? Let's not make more of this than it deserves.
Redelk - I'm still surprised bt the Busa's power (and hopefully respectful). To be honest I still haven't mastered the Busa and I'm not sure I ever will - at least not the way I would like. I'm probably better than I think but after watching the Mach2 video I feel like a novice again! Don't worry about offending me - you're very friendly compared to some. You're probably right about rider skill and new riders on the 12. I doubt I will ever see one where I'm at. (I'm still looking for a Busa other than my own too)
Sherm - I was trying to be diplomatic in this season of good will. Didn't realize you were so delicate. Unfortunately you also missed my point which is this:
If you plan on continuing to post items
[more rumors on top of the multitudes already posted] which have been well known to cause the biggest and longest controversy and animosity from both sides on this site then don't be surprised when you receive negative reactions. To be blunt: you've been on this site long enough to know what happens when these unsubstantiated rumors are posted which is why I suspect you may enjoy inflaming the masses then chewing on their butts when they react. I thought our members were pretty good natured about this most recent post. Appears to me you have a chip on your shoulder or perhaps just pulling our chains for fun? Let's not make more of this than it deserves.
OB_tinhead
Registered
Congratulations on your choice of the ZX12. I can't wait for these to be released (but I will, but I will, remember waiting for the Hayabusa? 'Did that Jap freighter sink in the middle of the Pacific?') so the cops will have other things to pull over.
Even the most donut-dulled squadboy KNOWS that Kawasaki riders are more reckless, more mindless and generally squidlike than any other brand. With zx12's around, I'll be able to take the Trans Am T-top with the blower sticking out of the hood out, put a topless teenage girl holding a Budweiser and a joint in the passenger seat, steer with my knees while doing burnouts in front of the old age home, Wild Turkey in my right hand, snort lines of coke off the mirror in my left hand and not worry a bit as long as there's a zx12 within 5 miles.
The cops, wreckers and ambulances will be so busy with new, proud zx12 owners that Hayabusas will be as unhassled as Honda Pacific Coasts. I hope Kawasaki sells a MILLION of the contraptions.
Even the most donut-dulled squadboy KNOWS that Kawasaki riders are more reckless, more mindless and generally squidlike than any other brand. With zx12's around, I'll be able to take the Trans Am T-top with the blower sticking out of the hood out, put a topless teenage girl holding a Budweiser and a joint in the passenger seat, steer with my knees while doing burnouts in front of the old age home, Wild Turkey in my right hand, snort lines of coke off the mirror in my left hand and not worry a bit as long as there's a zx12 within 5 miles.
The cops, wreckers and ambulances will be so busy with new, proud zx12 owners that Hayabusas will be as unhassled as Honda Pacific Coasts. I hope Kawasaki sells a MILLION of the contraptions.
Todd - I'm glad we agree, concerning drag Cx. I also feel the 'busa has well researched and designed aerodynamic aspects. It is REVOLUTIONARY! The low Cx proves it.
Since bikes aren't so hot in the low drag Cx catagory, other principles of aerodynamics must be utilized to acomplish the designers' goal. After all, low Cx, alone, doesn't necessarly result the fastest object (bikes, aircraft, bullets, etc.).
One of the reasons a bullet attains the speed it does, is due to the force used to move it. Using this theory with the 12R, KGE designers had to figure out methods to get enough HP / torque out of the engine (given to them by the motorcycle division). One of the results was the "tupperware" intake and it's location.
All of us realize that NASCAR, CART, F1, etc. alter wing size and angle to obtain optimum downforce for the various track configurations. Less downforce on ovals, where top speeds are important verses more downforce on road courses, where handling is more important. The car with more downforce, will have a higher drag Cx, but would outperform one with less, in the case of a road course.
This puts ALL bike designers in a bind. They have to come up with a design that will work in both applications. Note, I said work, not the best. F1 cars, aircraft, and bike designers must make concessions in this area, since there isn't a "magic configuration" that will do both well.
All of this speaks well of the designers of the Hayabusa. For Kawasaki to produce a bike that would even come close, KGE had to pull out all the stops and address every minor issue that could possibly affect air flow over the bike AND what the results would be. They could have designed some with just top speed in mind, but other aspects of the bike's perfomance would suffer proportionally. The same would apply if they had gone an any other direction. Let's not forget those pesky marketing folks, demanding changes (but not TOO radical or we can't sell it).
Throwing all that into the "mix", Kawasaki had to jump through quite a few hoops to theoretically match the 'busa (we don't know the results, since the 12 isn't here yet). The 'busa does all this... WITHOUT massive intakes, WITHOUT "winglets" on the lower fairings and WITHOUT "fins" on it's fork tubes.
My point is (collective YAWN from everyone on the board), I only questioned Rick's opinion because he'd know that all of the above factors affect the final results. Kawasaki has gone to great lengths to compete with the 'busa and has applied different aerodynamic theories to attain there results. The effects of those theories used, are still unproven (until the 12R arrives). I said earlier, he'd know better than I would, concerning the "overall" aerodynamic design. I just felt he wasn't looking at the "whole" picture. No offense, Rick.
[This message has been edited by redelk (edited 17 December 1999).]
Since bikes aren't so hot in the low drag Cx catagory, other principles of aerodynamics must be utilized to acomplish the designers' goal. After all, low Cx, alone, doesn't necessarly result the fastest object (bikes, aircraft, bullets, etc.).
One of the reasons a bullet attains the speed it does, is due to the force used to move it. Using this theory with the 12R, KGE designers had to figure out methods to get enough HP / torque out of the engine (given to them by the motorcycle division). One of the results was the "tupperware" intake and it's location.
All of us realize that NASCAR, CART, F1, etc. alter wing size and angle to obtain optimum downforce for the various track configurations. Less downforce on ovals, where top speeds are important verses more downforce on road courses, where handling is more important. The car with more downforce, will have a higher drag Cx, but would outperform one with less, in the case of a road course.
This puts ALL bike designers in a bind. They have to come up with a design that will work in both applications. Note, I said work, not the best. F1 cars, aircraft, and bike designers must make concessions in this area, since there isn't a "magic configuration" that will do both well.
All of this speaks well of the designers of the Hayabusa. For Kawasaki to produce a bike that would even come close, KGE had to pull out all the stops and address every minor issue that could possibly affect air flow over the bike AND what the results would be. They could have designed some with just top speed in mind, but other aspects of the bike's perfomance would suffer proportionally. The same would apply if they had gone an any other direction. Let's not forget those pesky marketing folks, demanding changes (but not TOO radical or we can't sell it).
Throwing all that into the "mix", Kawasaki had to jump through quite a few hoops to theoretically match the 'busa (we don't know the results, since the 12 isn't here yet). The 'busa does all this... WITHOUT massive intakes, WITHOUT "winglets" on the lower fairings and WITHOUT "fins" on it's fork tubes.
My point is (collective YAWN from everyone on the board), I only questioned Rick's opinion because he'd know that all of the above factors affect the final results. Kawasaki has gone to great lengths to compete with the 'busa and has applied different aerodynamic theories to attain there results. The effects of those theories used, are still unproven (until the 12R arrives). I said earlier, he'd know better than I would, concerning the "overall" aerodynamic design. I just felt he wasn't looking at the "whole" picture. No offense, Rick.
[This message has been edited by redelk (edited 17 December 1999).]
OB_gsx1300rguy
Registered
Dont get me wrong guys...I love my Busa and wouldn`t trade her for any machine ...short of a YF22 fighter.I think that if Kawasaki can get 207mph (clocked ) out of there bike ..cool.I have no insecurities about my manhood,lol.To get 9.4 out of it in the 1/4 and this rumored top end in a single package is pretty incredable,but and it`s a big butt if Sport Rider or Cycle World gets these numbers,I will be impressed.The bottom line is technology never stops it always goes forward ...to all of our benifit and sometimes not.I do believe that the Busa is the better looking and easier to maintain,I heard from a few Kawasaki mechs that you will have to drop the engine to change plugs and do valve adjustments at any where from 6-8 hours labor,which means $300 to $500 Labor+parts per tune up.If you add that to the extra $1000-$1500 the 12 is going to cost,the Busa makes better sence even if the 12 is faster.We all know what $2000 can do to a Busa engine 180-190 rwhp .
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