Nov 99 CycleWorld

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Well that's pretty specific Junior.

Whaddayagot to say, or am I too naive to deserve a detailed reply?

Make your points and let's discuss.

The ideal drag machine will have its engine exactly on the RPM that give perfect peak power production for the whole run, with no variation in revs at all. It will also keep its tires just south of traction loss for the whole run.

Therefore the ideal drag machine would never shift a gear and never spin a tire.

To accomplish this, the ideal drag machine would produce enough power...without a transmission to necessitate a shift...to break loose the largest possible tires at any point in the run until it was precisely at the traps. It would have to use a clutch to modulate power to the wheels and that clutch would have to slip to dissipate excess power as heat for the whole run and then lock up exactly at the traps.

Now think of that same run in terms of a Busas' first gear run.

The Busa is not the ideal drag machine, partially because of it's crap power-to-weight ratio and partially because of the tire most of us run it on.

But the Busa does have what it takes to BEHAVE like the ideal drag machine for the period of time that it enjoys a power-to-weight-to-traction ratio that allows it to spin the tire at will, i.e. up to about 90 mph.

During this period, having a lower gear will only force an earlier shift. It WILL NOT provide more forward force unless it is hitched to a bigger tire. If you run a slick on a Busa, THEN it will need a lower first gear.

To take this argument to the extreme, as Dr Busa did, would it improve the Busa's short time to install gears that got you to the top of third at the sixty foot mark?

In a drag, gears are a necessary evil. They compensate somewhat for the engine's inability to turn the wheels with sufficient torque to break them loose. Using gears prevents the engine from staying exactly at peak power production for the whole run. But in the first gear part of your run on a Busa, and for the first part of second, you CAN stay near peak power RPM by using the clutch.

Once the tires hook right up, you're leaning on your gears to compensate for a weak engine.

The right first gear should take you to the point where your engine no longer has the power to overcome traction, and the Busa first gear does not take you to that point.

The Busa is probably geared quite nicely for the short run for most riders and for the stock clutch. A shorter first gear would only force an earlier shift and therefore MORE shifts down the track.

Any holes in that?
 
since you didn't reply to my e-mail before i started this, here we go....

not in a technical since.
power to wieght ratio is what it's all about.
(and yes, i know you touched on this a little bit pops)
the ideal is to get to the finish line the fastest way possible.
the more! gears you can use, the better!
thing is...(yes) wheel spin.
the more teeth you take out of the front or add to the rear, the better the chance your going to have at spinning the tire.
so the ideal is to (yes) use clutch managemant. slide it.
if your a big guy, use as many gears as you possible can to keep the wheel from spinning.
(remember...wieght ratio) a little guy wont need as much because of the wieght thing.

the ideal dragbike, would be less wieght and more traction!

considering the street bikes that are out there, the busa is the BEST THING GOING!

myself, turbo1300 and a few others are about to show you that.....

see pops...thats why you launch your bike at differant rpm's.
(this is noway a slam towards dirty-pete)
......frank
 
Well thank you for clarifying your position on that.

I'm at peace now.

Young man, you've made narrow escape from the wood shed.

Martha, get me the paddle...
 
The reason you don't get wheelspin when you slip the clutch is that half the power you bike produces goes to, instead of driving your bike forwards, to heating the clutch. This is why you can't start in 6th at a redlight and make a quick start. This is a fact and if you have studied fysics you know how much energy heat contains. For instance when you slam the brakes, the machine comes to a stop harder than the acceleration you can get out of a 'Busa. Where does the energy go ? Yes heat in you discs and tyres, and yes the clutch works the same way as the brakes.

I'm sure you have noticed that the best topspeeds are achieved when you don't slip the clutch hardly at all. This is because you use all the horsepower to drive the vehicle forward. This is why you need shorter gearing so you won't have to slip the clutch and still get a quick start.

Top fuelers: The tires can take 4000hp the other 2000hp or so is clutch heat.

It may sound crazy but guys it's not my fault !
 
FRANKly, I think that, with minor bullshit exceptions, we're all in violent agreement here. Let's drop it.

I'd like to change the subject back to The Black Snake. Post #11, response # 10 on this thread, from Kong.

"Suck this black snake."

Kong are you Black...African American...whatever...

Reason I ask: (You don't need a reason Pete!) is because I so rarely see Black guys on a bike.

Motorcycling, like boating and tiddlywinks, seems to be a White pastime.

Before we get deeper into this...are you Black? (Please forgodsakes notice I capitalized the word "Black").

And if you're not, Kong, is anyone else Black here?

How about our newest Member, Intimidator, from Namibia? (See thread titled "Pioneer")

How come bikes are for Whites?

P.S. My snake is white...well pinkish white.
 
What am I doing trying to change the subject to be nice.

Dr. Busa you're fulla poop. Don't slip the clutch? Start at 2,000 revs?

And Frank stick to riding because you've got no grasp of theory. Or mechanics for that matter.
 
Dr Busa if you'll promise that you'll engage your clutch right off the line and I can slip my clutch as much as I want, I've got a way to make a nice trip to Sweden for the wife and kids pay.
 
Pete just let me know when you're coming so i can put the kettle on,....OH BY THE WAY to bring water to boil from room tempreture is equal to accelerating the same amount of water to approx. 1500mph in energy terms speaking....
 
Dr. BUSA, I have been to a drag race before.

The key to a good short time has nothing to do with gearing.

It's about keeping your rear tire perfectly on the squirrely edge of traction loss from the instant the light turns. This means managing power delivery for little or no tire spin.

Assuming your machine has the ability to spin the rear tire at will off the line, maintaining your tire on the edge of traction loss is a matter of CLUTCH use...not gearing.

You only need gears to keep your engine in the powerband it needs to be in to keep the tire(s) right on the edge of traction loss.

The ideal would be to run the entire 1/4 with no gear changes. As I understand it, only Top Fuel (cage) Dragsters can do this and that's because of their unique self-sacrificing clutch systems.
 
Thanks Pete!

The way the bikes are coming these days.... shorter, lighter and more powerful, the issue of gearing (or going much shorter)is becoming less relevant.

Especially on stock wheelbases, suspensions and ride height!
 
That was an interesting thread

At the risk of being redundant, I agree with fastzx9, I don't have enough experience with bikes at the drag strip to comment on the way they handle. On cars, I would increase gear to get them to hook up. As you go faster you need to take gear out. This would inevitably overcome the tire. You would either have to slip the clutch more, or go to a bigger tire. If you let the clutch out, and your tires strike hard, the higher gear lets them spin faster. This is assuming you have the power to sustain this. The faster tire speed requires either a bigger tire, or a longer time frame (wasted time) to catch up. The only time I would add gear to induce tire spin, would be on a grossly under powered vehicle. The only time lowering your rear end gear makes you faster is when your final drive ratio is off. Like on a 200 mph motorcycle.

Dirty Pete (pansie?) As usual you were right on the mark. Top fuel cars run a 3.20 rear gear with no forward gear changes. They produce closer to 7000 hp. They go to max power almost instantly, and stay there. Tire growth accounts for the gear change. Clutch management handles the rest.


[This message has been edited by maui (edited 03 October 1999).]
 
For arguements sake, I've run much quicker with stock, or taller gearing, than I ever did putting a bunch of gear in it.

Bottom line, if you can't get the power to the pavement, the tire to stick, the front end to just float and into the throttle early..... having all that gear is a waste! You have to be able to use it.... and early at that!

Well, then there's the top end set-up. Are you ringing a gear out, does it need a gear change, did I make one too far down track be worthwhile. There's a ton more to gearing than the average guy has any concept of.

I have a 9 second 95 Kawasaki ZX-9 that makes 137 rear wheel horsepower. On a good pass it will go high 1.5's, low 1.6's to 60 feet. The bike utilizes stock gearing and runs through the traps right in the sweet spot. It launches like a dream (when it hooks) and carries the tire nicely through first. Any more gear, even one up in the rear, completely upsets the bike off the line... induces wheelies when it doesn't break the tire loose, and causes an extra worthless shift down track.

An added note, I get great clutch wear on my crappy O.E.M. set-up!
 
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