Santa Presents

[VaBusa]

+1 Warren...

I've learned that there are just a handful of things my two boys KNOW will get 'em in trouble...we had to really work at being consistent and it takes ALL adults involved to make it work...sounds like these two children don't have that consistency in their lives right now for whatever reason...you say it, you need to mean it...

On the other side of this story is the need for tons of positive reinforcement in their lives. Whatever makes 'em shine, harp on it and encourage it...eventually, hopefully, they'll display more of the positive than negative...

 

[GSXRFANN]

Tough call!! Not being in that situation, I can not really give much advice. But I would say probably give them just one gift each, and leave a note from Santa like someone else suggested, telling them why they only got one thing from you, and nothing from him. Then continue being consistent! And if possible, get them some therapy, because they may really end up hurting themsleves or each other, or possibly someone else.
JMO

 

[MN72Busa]

Had the 6year old in therapy 3 times, but mom didnt have time to keep going. infact, part of the reason this failed is because of the distance Mom had to travel. For whatever reason, my fiance told me that there are very few counselors that deal with childern so young. I took her word for it, and left it at that, as I could go on for hours.

The dad is a real "pos" - he has legal right to see the kids every other weekend. Weve been to court on this several times, but unless we have physical proof that he is endangering the kids, he still gets visitation....even though he refused the court order for parrenting classes and anger managment. Yes when he takes the kids, which is about once every 2 months, the kids behavior is very bad. I think the dad thinks its a complete joke, but than again thats only speculation on my part. Its a power struggle between the Fiance and her X, and the X doesnt realize the only one he is hurting is the kids, but what do you expect from a hard core drug user, deadbeat.

Now, back to the kids. Mom said she is going to give them the santa presents at this time, could change in 72 hours...who knows. but I think the note idea from santa is brillant. And I will suggest this idea to mom. If these were my kids I would be very strict with how things are done, but Im kinda a bystander at this point, and I am very careful at what I suggest because mom is very stubborn and refuses constructive criticism from family and friends. I cant express enough how much everyones opinions here mean to me. Im at a loss myself, and listening to the words from others is a relief and educational on so many levels.

Sounds silly, were not even married yet and need counceling. The thing is I love her and these kids & just want everything to be somewhat normal - whatever normal is these days.

 

[captain]

My 2 cents on parenting that has worked on me, brother, sister and information I have passed to others as well.

1. Dont make Santa the bad guy
2. Find what motivates them and use that for good not evil
3. Be consistant Do not waiver
4. Idle threats hurt you
5. Dont be lazy, if you warn (threaten) to spank follow through.. I've seen parents make threats to spank but wouldnt get off the couch to walk 3 feet to execute the warning.
6. Persistance, if you say no stick with it, do not waiver, eventually they will learn to not ask.
7. You are bigger, you are smarter!
8. Your the parent not their best friend, let bobby or susie be their best friend.
9. Don't over react, singing the F you song is wrong but intentions mean the world... If your 3 year old picked it up from you then respond but be fair... If your 10 year old is singning it at church you might want to adjust your reaction, a 10 year old knows better.
10. Be open with them...... Sometimes a simple talk of why something is not appropriate is much more effective than a beating, sometimes a beating works best.........
11. If you ask a question be prepared for the answer, refer to rule 9
12. Teach respect, start with themselves, the flag, elders, others, you, God and country.....
13. Make them work, give them chores and understand that it takes effort to have nice things. Once you understand that respect for other peoples belongings begins.
13. lots and lots of on the knees open prayer.......



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[Mr Brown]

Wow, I should have read this post earlier today. I thought it was something entirely different.
I have 2 boys, one mine, one not, 5, and almost 2. The best I can suggest is what WarBrown said. Discipline with love, and consistency. My 5 y/o has issues, he stays with his Dad every other week, and is allowed to do as he pleases. This does not fly at my house. Last year he told his Mom and me that the presents his Dad and paternal Grandparents got for him were way better than what he got from us. After being told that this was rude, he said he didn't care, the gifts were still better from them. I got up from the table, got three trash bags, (the big lawn ones) and went into his room, put every toy I could find into those bags, including the ones he had just gotten, and as he stood there bawling, told him I was gonna take them to the Salvation Army and donate tham, because there are lots of kids who got nothing this Christmas, that would be very grateful for some toys, even ones that he considered uncool. His Mother talked me out of doing it later that evening, but I was dead serious, them toys were gone. I made my point, he believed that I would do it, and we didn't hear another word about how crappy our gifts were. Bottom line, if the punishments you guys are using aren't effective, find different ones. If cancelling Christmas with an explanation is rough enough to get their attention, I say cancel away.

 

[pward76]

Some random thoughts from a guy married to a woman with a PhD in early childhood development who has been a practising School Psychologist for over 13 years.

Much as you want to, whacking them won't work. It will only make YOU feel better. It took me YEARS to learn this.

This is hard, but positive reinforcement works. Ya gotta catch them being good, and priase the heck out of 'em for it. Reward 'em for it. "I really like it when you are nice to the kitty - GOOD JOB!" (and a big hug)

The cats and any other animals have got to go, for their own safety. Tell the kids (ONCE) that the next time kitty gets treated badly, kitty goes away. Then FOLLOW THROUGH - this is where a lot of parents fail. Once they see you back off a promised consequence, you WILL spend lots of time rebuilding any respect they have for your word meaning anything serious. Don't yell or scream about it, just pack up the cat and tell them calmly that this is a consequence of their actions. Make the kids come with you as you take the animal(s) to a shelter or to a relative. These kids do NOT belong around animals at this time - Animal abuse has been shown to lead to person abuse later in life. You may be able to use the promise of a new kitty as leverage to obtain good behaviour, but I would NOT get them another animal for at least a year - or two.

It's hard but you and their mother have to be consistent in your reward / punishment paradigm. Pick the way to respond and BOTH of you do it the same way every time.

When my kids pouted or threw a fit about anything (timeouts, extra chores, etc), I would always praise them - "Oh my GOD! That's a perfect tantrum! Keep it up, that's great! I LOVE tantrums, can you scream a little louder? That's a GREAT pout face, quick, someone get me the camera!"
That sort of thing. They quit that crap pretty quickly.

Good luck...

 

[MN72Busa]

I would really like mom tho read this thread, but feel this would only cause issues. In response to the PM's Ive been getting, yes Iam very aware of what this type of behavior means and how serious it really is. And as I stated before, the above examples were only a few examples of behavior. I guess hearing everyone's words on this thread, and from private PM's are starting to sink in as to the reality that her and I are facing. Yes, to answer another question, both the father and his mother and brothers have severe mental illness.

I know the above issues are very real, and we cant change them overnight, but is it any real reason to not have santa presents? And yes both her and I have commited to positive reinforcement, but even adult have their breaking point. And as I openly admitt that Im not there enough, as she puts it if I was there more things would be different. Unfortunately between work, and keeping up my household and the erractic work schedule, I can only do so much, and thus the reason she is wanting us to get married so bad, becuase 2 parrents are better than 1. Probably not making much sense right now, as I have several thoughts on my mind about this issue.

 

[Relsek]

VaBusa,

Some pretty serious issues, but here are a few examples. First off the kids have absolutely no Respect for their mother...Complete lack of respect for anyone but themselves. They hit when angry, use swear words, defiant behavior, Locking the cats in a small barbie suitcase & locking them in the dog kennel (that was this summer, cats were in the suitcase for a few hours on a 100 degree day & when the cats were found they were sweating & we all know cats dont sweat) since than they have locked the cats / no suit case in the kennel 2 more times / last time being 3 weeks ago. Kids are put to bed at 7pm and still goofing off at 10 pm, 4 year old continually is found in mom's bed in the morning, 6 year old wets her bed everynight. When kids are on timeout for 5 or 10 minutes, they continually scream, get up, or yell at mother. I cant be there all the time but when I am the behavior is hardly present (the kids know Im not gonn put up with it). 4 year old has been know to throw rocks at his pre-school teachers van, and has some behavior issues while in class. The 6 year old does what she wants in 1st grade and doesnt do what the teacher instructs her to do.

I really feel bad for these kids, and mom is completely at a loss of what to do & because we both work, we hardly enough energy to deal with this everyday. Becomming better in some ways, but some of the behavior has got worse in others...without elaborating.

I'm probably going to sound like a total jerk here, but some things need to be said.

Those kids are going to be a society's problem if someone doesn't do something now. I would probably never get involved with a woman that had children that out of hand, I personally have no patience for misbehaving children. Whether you want to admit it or not, their mother has allowed them to become that way.

You said that since you both work, "we hardly enough energy to deal with this everyday." If you're going to marry her, she needs to quit her job and focus on putting her energy into those kids. If not, and they continue on that path, you will probably not have a long lasting marriage, and you will both be worse off.

If this message is to offensive for you, just tell me and I'll delete it.

I'm sure others have thought the same thing but may not want to post it.

Kevin

Oh, the presents is the last of your worries.



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[MN72Busa]

Be completely blunt with me - No offense taken, I didnt create this thread and openly express personal issues to get B.S.

Honesty Is much appreciated, and I thank you.



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[Relsek]

Be completely blunt with me - No offense taken, I didnt create this thread and openly express personal issues to get B.S.

Honesty Is much appreciated, and I thank you.

That's refreshing, you stand a better chance of success by dealing with it head on and not ignoring it.

My kids are far from perfect but I do think that being raised by my wife as a stay at home mom has been a great positive influence on them. Brian was already grown when my wife quit work to stay home with the kids, two of the kids were hers, and two were mine. The following year she began home schooling them, she is now in her 7th year of home schooling and the last one will graduate and plans to go off to college in 2006. I was only making about $11.00 an hour and we had credit card bills out the wazoo, it can be done. We also had the help that Captain was talking about. It was shortly after my wife quit work that God became a big part of our lives and that made the whole process much easier. God found a way to remove all our cc debt and meet all our needs over the last 7 years. He even made it possible for me to have the nicest motorcycle around.

I suggest that if you get your priorities in the right order, the situation can be delt with.

Kevin

 

[Mr Brown]

VaBusa,

Some pretty serious issues, but here are a few examples. First off the kids have absolutely no Respect for their mother...Complete lack of respect for anyone but themselves. They hit when angry, use swear words, defiant behavior, Locking the cats in a small barbie suitcase & locking them in the dog kennel (that was this summer, cats were in the suitcase for a few hours on a 100 degree day & when the cats were found they were sweating & we all know cats dont sweat) since than they have locked the cats / no suit case in the kennel 2 more times / last time being 3 weeks ago. Kids are put to bed at 7pm and still goofing off at 10 pm, 4 year old continually is found in mom's bed in the morning, 6 year old wets her bed everynight. When kids are on timeout for 5 or 10 minutes, they continually scream, get up, or yell at mother. I cant be there all the time but when I am the behavior is hardly present (the kids know Im not gonn put up with it). 4 year old has been know to throw rocks at his pre-school teachers van, and has some behavior issues while in class. The 6 year old does what she wants in 1st grade and doesnt do what the teacher instructs her to do.

I really feel bad for these kids, and mom is completely at a loss of what to do & because we both work, we hardly enough energy to deal with this everyday. Becomming better in some ways, but some of the behavior has got worse in others...without elaborating.

I'm probably going to sound like a total jerk here, but some things need to be said.

Those kids are going to be a society's problem if someone doesn't do something now. I would probably never get involved with a woman that had children that out of hand, I personally have no patience for misbehaving children. Whether you want to admit it or not, their mother has allowed them to become that way.

You said that since you both work, "we hardly enough energy to deal with this everyday." If you're going to marry her, she needs to quit her job and focus on putting her energy into those kids. If not, and they continue on that path, you will probably not have a long lasting marriage, and you will both be worse off.

If this message is to offensive for you, just tell me and I'll delete it.

I'm sure others have thought the same thing but may not want to post it.

Kevin

Oh, the presents is the last of your worries.

You don't sound like a jerk KK, several of us said what you did, just used the PM method instead. You are voicing your opinion out of concern, not rudeness. Good on ya.

 

[Southside Playa]

YOu can't reward bad behaviour, Christmas or not. The holidays are too commercialized anyway. Kids feel as if they are owed something. And these kids in this case actually have earned something ................ the need for a GOOD AZZ WHOOPIN !!

I understand that you don't want to be too overbearing as they are not yours. You definitely need to make them aware of the sacrifices that their mother and I am sure you as well make for them. THey aren't the first and won't be the last kids to have a POS, deadbeat dad, but they are not really hurting from that right now. As long as they have a mother supporting them and you as a postive male figure, that is all necessary.

As the recipient of "Tough Love" thru many earn azz whoopins, I can tell you it made me a better person. It is why I am a Mechanical Engineer right now. I did not always get what I wanted, but I got what I needed, everything else was given on merit. I know we live in different times, but somethings don't need to change. So don't spare the rod.

 

[TruWrecks]

Don't be afraid of spanking for bad behavior. Don't do it when you're mad. You'll take it too far! If you don't want to do that put them in a time out, with no toys for about 10 minutes. If they start throwing a fit, two words, "Cold Shower". When they start getting out of hand, take them, cloths and all, and put them in the shower. Turn it on cold, and tell them you'll turn it off when they stop. You won't hurt them, but they won't like it.

It's not perfect, but either is parenting. Anyone who says "Don't spank" either doesn't have kids, or they have out of control kids. Mine got spanking when they did something that would get themselves, or somebody else hurt. They got timeouts for most other things. They got cold showers for fits. As far as I can tell, they're turning out to be decent respectful boys, that will hopefully learn enough self respect to be seen as good people, by others, when they grow up.

As far a Christmas goes, let them get the santa presents, but tell them that their behavior will determine if they get to play with them, and stand by your word! You and your fiance will have to be 100% together on kid issues, or the kids won't believe you. If you allow a behavior once, you've given permission forever! That's how the kids will see it.

Godspeed.

 

[captain]

Some random thoughts from a guy married to a woman with a PhD in early childhood development who has been a practising School Psychologist for over 13 years.  

Much as you want to, whacking them won't work.  It will only make YOU feel better.  It took me YEARS to learn this.

This is hard, but positive reinforcement works.  Ya gotta catch them being good, and priase the heck out of 'em for it.  Reward 'em for it.  "I really like it when you are nice to the kitty - GOOD JOB!" (and a big hug)

The cats and any other animals have got to go, for their own safety.  Tell the kids (ONCE) that the next time kitty gets treated badly, kitty goes away.  Then FOLLOW THROUGH - this is where a lot of parents fail.  Once they see you back off a promised consequence, you WILL spend lots of time rebuilding any respect they have for your word meaning anything serious.  Don't yell or scream about it, just pack up the cat and tell them calmly that this is a consequence of their actions.  Make the kids come with you as you take the animal(s) to a shelter or to a relative.  These kids do NOT belong around animals at this time - Animal abuse has been shown to lead to person abuse later in life.  You may be able to use the promise of a new kitty as leverage to obtain good behaviour, but I would NOT get them another animal for at least a year - or two.

It's hard but you and their mother have to be consistent in your reward / punishment paradigm.  Pick the way to respond and BOTH of you do it the same way every time.

When my kids pouted or threw a fit about anything (timeouts, extra chores, etc), I would always praise them - "Oh my GOD!  That's a perfect tantrum!  Keep it up, that's great!  I LOVE tantrums, can you scream a little louder?  That's a GREAT pout face, quick, someone get me the camera!"  
That sort of thing.  They quit that crap pretty quickly.

Good luck...

My dad beat my ass and you know what I'm still learning lessons from it

Im not talking about bleeding and bruises Im talking about turning my butt red and showing me that he was still in control.....

 

[captain]

As far a Christmas goes, let them get the santa presents, but tell them that their behavior will determine if they get to play with them, and stand by your word! [/QUOTE]

Perfect, let them have the presents and hold them until they deserve them and act as you wish... Make it incremental, you act this way you get this, you keep doing better and you get this... I would not tell them that if they were good for a day they got them all I would put them on an action plan that spanned a couple of weeks to start habits.

2 more cents

 

[Relsek]

Some random thoughts from a guy married to a woman with a PhD in early childhood development who has been a practising School Psychologist for over 13 years.  

Much as you want to, whacking them won't work.  It will only make YOU feel better.  It took me YEARS to learn this.

This is hard, but positive reinforcement works.  Ya gotta catch them being good, and priase the heck out of 'em for it.  Reward 'em for it.  "I really like it when you are nice to the kitty - GOOD JOB!" (and a big hug)

The cats and any other animals have got to go, for their own safety.  Tell the kids (ONCE) that the next time kitty gets treated badly, kitty goes away.  Then FOLLOW THROUGH - this is where a lot of parents fail.  Once they see you back off a promised consequence, you WILL spend lots of time rebuilding any respect they have for your word meaning anything serious.  Don't yell or scream about it, just pack up the cat and tell them calmly that this is a consequence of their actions.  Make the kids come with you as you take the animal(s) to a shelter or to a relative.  These kids do NOT belong around animals at this time - Animal abuse has been shown to lead to person abuse later in life.  You may be able to use the promise of a new kitty as leverage to obtain good behaviour, but I would NOT get them another animal for at least a year - or two.

It's hard but you and their mother have to be consistent in your reward / punishment paradigm.  Pick the way to respond and BOTH of you do it the same way every time.

When my kids pouted or threw a fit about anything (timeouts, extra chores, etc), I would always praise them - "Oh my GOD!  That's a perfect tantrum!  Keep it up, that's great!  I LOVE tantrums, can you scream a little louder?  That's a GREAT pout face, quick, someone get me the camera!"  
That sort of thing.  They quit that crap pretty quickly.

Good luck...

A Phd doesn't carry much weight with me. A person can study and study and never gain the knowledge of first hand experience. I'm not saying she's not qualified, I have just run into too many cases where people thought that since they had a degree they were smarter and knew more when in truth, they just had book experience rather than hands on.

Discipline of children doesn't start when they are a teen, or 8 or 6 or 4 or even 2. It starts the first time they show signs of rebellion. You have to start early. If you start early, you can use a firm tone of voice and many other things that aren't considered harsh. The longer you wait the harder it is to begin to discipline because the child has already learned that you will take the misbehaving. That is why I think Valium will have a more difficult time than if he had started with them as infants. Not to mention the "you're not my dad" that will come into play.

You all know my son Brian, he was actually my wife's son. My wife and I were married when Brian was 11, his father, also named Brian was not around, not a part of their life, and gave no support of any kind, but he was still their father and just the fact that there was someone else did make a difference in the way he acted. Brian and I had a tough time while he was growing up, he didn't love me like a child should love a dad, and I didn't love him as a dad should love a child. It didn't come naturally as it does for your own flesh and blood. I guess I went off on this rant because from my experience, valium has a rough road ahead if he chooses to take it. It may be the road he is meant to take, but it will be difficult.

 

[Jet Li]

Kids need to learn to give. Christmas is way overdone in our culture. I wouldn't have any problems withholding Christmas presents in this case and explaining why to the kids. It seems that the children are acting out in part because of a divorce. It is really tough on kids who don't have the capacity to understand just what is going on and why. Even if their Dad is a deadbeat, they still know him as dad and still will love him because they have already built a bond they can't explain or deny. And ditto all the things Captain posted. Those kids have to begin to anticipate consequences or there is no nidus for a change.
Good luck, Bro!

 

[pward76]

Some random thoughts from a guy married to a woman with a PhD in early childhood development who has been a practising School Psychologist for over 13 years.

Much as you want to, whacking them won't work. It will only make YOU feel better. It took me YEARS to learn this.

This is hard, but positive reinforcement works. Ya gotta catch them being good, and priase the heck out of 'em for it. Reward 'em for it. "I really like it when you are nice to the kitty - GOOD JOB!" (and a big hug)

The cats and any other animals have got to go, for their own safety. Tell the kids (ONCE) that the next time kitty gets treated badly, kitty goes away. Then FOLLOW THROUGH - this is where a lot of parents fail. Once they see you back off a promised consequence, you WILL spend lots of time rebuilding any respect they have for your word meaning anything serious. Don't yell or scream about it, just pack up the cat and tell them calmly that this is a consequence of their actions. Make the kids come with you as you take the animal(s) to a shelter or to a relative. These kids do NOT belong around animals at this time - Animal abuse has been shown to lead to person abuse later in life. You may be able to use the promise of a new kitty as leverage to obtain good behaviour, but I would NOT get them another animal for at least a year - or two.

It's hard but you and their mother have to be consistent in your reward / punishment paradigm. Pick the way to respond and BOTH of you do it the same way every time.

When my kids pouted or threw a fit about anything (timeouts, extra chores, etc), I would always praise them - "Oh my GOD! That's a perfect tantrum! Keep it up, that's great! I LOVE tantrums, can you scream a little louder? That's a GREAT pout face, quick, someone get me the camera!"
That sort of thing. They quit that crap pretty quickly.

Good luck...

A Phd doesn't carry much weight with me. A person can study and study and never gain the knowledge of first hand experience. I'm not saying she's not qualified, I have just run into too many cases where people thought that since they had a degree they were smarter and knew more when in truth, they just had book experience rather than hands on.

Discipline of children doesn't start when they are a teen, or 8 or 6 or 4 or even 2. It starts the first time they show signs of rebellion. You have to start early. If you start early, you can use a firm tone of voice and many other things that aren't considered harsh. The longer you wait the harder it is to begin to discipline because the child has already learned that you will take the misbehaving. That is why I think Valium will have a more difficult time than if he had started with them as infants. Not to mention the "you're not my dad" that will come into play.

You all know my son Brian, he was actually my wife's son. My wife and I were married when Brian was 11, his father, also named Brian was not around, not a part of their life, and gave no support of any kind, but he was still their father and just the fact that there was someone else did make a difference in the way he acted. Brian and I had a tough time while he was growing up, he didn't love me like a child should love a dad, and I didn't love him as a dad should love a child. It didn't come naturally as it does for your own flesh and blood. I guess I went off on this rant because from my experience, valium has a rough road ahead if he chooses to take it. It may be the road he is meant to take, but it will be difficult.

I know what you mean about "book smart" PhDs, Kevin - this is why I mentioned her years of experience as well. She doen't flaunt the doctorate at all. In fact, I pimp it more than she does because I know how long and hard she worked for it - and the motivation behind her desire to see it through (our handicapped son, Daniel 1982 - 2003). It embarrasses her when I do it in public.

I will point out, however, that even "book smart" PhD's deserve some props, just for having the stones to stick with it. If it was easy, you and I would have one.

You make good points about children of divorce, and I applaud you for your efforts with and for Brian. From what I've seen posted by both of you, you seem to have a very good relationship now. I'm sure your experience and insight will be of value to Valium. Kudos.

Sorry to hijack...

 

[Charlesbusa]

I wish you the best.



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[frisbee]

One year I gave my kids a present from Santa , it was a lump of coal! I told them that it must be a warning for next year . I know kids are hard to control right now at this time of year .