Single topic debat #11

[Wag]

This may be only a hair less troublesome than the other debate you shot down, Rev. If you shoot this one down too, I won't be the LEAST bit offended!

Still, I think it can be discussed with a degree of civility that is unheard of in other boards, otherwise, I wouldn't even attempt this.

Without further ado:

Right to die or made to live?

The above statement should make my opinion on this topic quite apparent! Still, I'm curious what people believe about people's right to die in the way they choose compared to holding all life sacred and disallowing them the privilege of choosing.

Jack Kevorkian is serving time now. Should he? Or should he be hailed as a public servant if not a friggin' hero?

--Wag--

 

[Warputer]

I believe people should have the right in a "choice" . But what is questionable is some of them aren't in the right "state" to make a choice ( comas , vegetables ) . So then what ?

 

[NCBusa2001]

Might be a little too thought provoking, but good topic at any rate.

My view. I believe that everyone has the right to make individual choices that define their lives.

Liberty is one of our great endowments bestowed upon us by our founding fathers. Liberty involves the capacity to make decisions that affect an individual. Suicide wasn’t probably considered by our founders, but nevertheless is included.

The courts don’t seem to agree at this point with my views, but times are changing.

As a person working in healthcare, specifically psychiatry, the topic of suicide comes up often. I see all kinds of different situations and nightmares during the course of my day. I try to empathize and consider how I would react in similar circumstances.

Imagine being in constant excruciating pain with no relief expected and likely to worsen. That’s not quality of life, but mere existence. In those terms, I can’t really fault those who choose the lesser or two evils. (death over never ending pain).

No matter what the particular circumstance is, I know that I would like to be able to make MY OWN decisions that affect my life (or death).

In summary, I believe that if a person is not encumbered with psychiatric illness or incompetence, then they should have the ability to determine their own end. I am certainly not “pro suicide†but simply believe in a person’s sovereign right of self-determination.

I’m interested to see where this topic goes.

Chris

 

[BlueHaya]

Right to make our own choices. Leave the Gov. out of our lives.

 

[WWJD]

If i'm a vegatable, I'm no longer living. Kick the plug out. I'm happy for my time here. I coulda died at 6 too. Could medic science fixed me 50 years from now, while I'm frozen next to Walt Disney? Who cares! I wasn't meant to live for ever and I accept that.

 

[VaBusa]

A topic discussed often between my Mom and I, especially after watching her husband, my step-father, go through so much with cancer for 5 years...I know that they both wished it had been an option should he have wanted it; doesn't mean he'd use that option, but to have it there...I know that my Mom wants that right should she ever need it, as would I.

We treat our pets better than we're allowed to treat ourselves...I can't imagine it would be any easier with a person we love, but watching people in pain, agony, for years and knowing that they want to go, that nothing will get better, that there will be no peace for that person until their body finally gives up...just sad to me...

I guess I wonder who has the right to set a moral standard here?  I think if you want to die, it would have to be something ONLY YOU are allowed to do so no others are tied up in your decision...the powers that be put their moral, political and religious spin on something that's entirely subjective...

 

[Revlis]

I think it's pathetic and sorry that we treat our pets better than our elderly, and our crippled. There are some difficult insurance and other issues that need to be hammered out sure, but the suffering that goes on in the name of some misapplied ethic is a crime.

Leaving folks to suffer because of some misguided and entirely inappropriate fudging religious ethic is a wicked, shameful, and appalling. The fact that you have a DROOLING VEGATABLE kept alive by machines for years and years simply because some self righteous and Fearful scumbag says it's wrong to be merciful, to show them mercy is simply immoral.

What the hell are people thinking when they fight to keep somebody alive that obviously CANNOT and IS NOT enjoying LIFE, a person who is in constant pain, who cannot do for his or herself or at least communicate and find some form of happiness? WHAT possible motivations do this self appointed guardians of Faith and LIFE have, Other than their own pathetic fears of death projected?
This is where Satan or whatever you want to call EVIL lives. The shear conceit and cruelty is mind numbing.

Letting your loved ones languish in agony, or hell I've seen pet owners do the same, Stretching out the lives of pets who are miserable, and no longer enjoying life. The Selfishness, the complete lack of compassion or empathy is enough to make me physically ill. As soon as a person isn’t able to be a person, or a cat a cat, or a dog a dog, it’s time to let go, to do the RIGHT thing, selfishness and fear or horrible reasons to make someone suffer.

I want somebody to explain to me just who the hell they are to tell another that they must suffer. That Mercy isn't allowed, that there is nothing to be done because it's "WRONG"... Explain how keeping someone or something in a state of misery is good, or how keeping a completely catatonic patient alive via machines for years is GOOD...

There is no way around the Inhumanity caused by a misguided belief or misplaced sense of Good or Right...

For the record I have a living will, and I have 6 months to recover from a coma. Then, mysteriously a plug will be pulled a machine will fail…

I have friends I trust, and a wife that loves me.

 

[Revlis]

As usual, I offer a balanced, calm and rational view on this topic.

Would you expect less?

 

[Wag]

People deserve the right to choose how to exit their lives. Especially in the circumstances where, as you mentioned, physical pain and suffering will not be eased. Note, that I didn't say, "Life's pain." Suicide is a very different topic than this.

Who we are talking about are people who know they will die very shortly and will live a life of exquisite suffering and pain for the duration. Those people deserve the choice.

There are also those who are suffering and cannot do "the deed" themselves. Quadriplegics, for example, who cannot themselves take a bottle of pills or inject themselves with anything to end their lives. Some believe people should be content to be alive and that wishing for death is a crime against humanity or nature. Or god, of course.

Shouldn't we help people in such circumstances? I, for one, believe my quality of life is what makes my life. Living in pain is not life, to me. Nevertheless, plenty of people in dire suffering will choose to extend their lives as long as possible. So be it. They have the option to do so, we should allow the option of death to those who choose it.

Great book on this topic is, "Final Exit," by Derek Humphries, I believe. Great read if for no other reason than because it's truly though-provoking, whether you agree with it or not. Make sure you get the newest edition of it because it gets updated from time to time. But the stories in it are heartrending.

--Wag--

 

[Revlis]

Well even in the cases of Suicide, If a person chooses they can get a license, after a 6 month course (Their Expense) and a cooling off period. You can have your suicide approved.

That would be handy...

OH OH what if you could VOTE someone OFF the ISLAND?



<!--EDIT|Revlis
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[Wag]

I think one of the potential problems which could occur is people who might believe they have the right to decide that another persoin should be "put out of his or her misery." We really don't want to go there, of course. But if the person is ASKING to be put out of his misery, then you have to consider that it may be the best course of action. In spite of our ability to be merciful to our pets, our beloved family members are more than just pets and their desires should be considered very carefully.

In Holland a few years ago, there were allegations against a doctor who euthanized some patients at the request of the families involved and it was later determined that it may have been done inappropriately. Seeking insurance payouts or something like that, if I recall correctly.

There have to be safeguards, but I think one of the things which cripples us is that people in this country are unwilling to discuss the difficult topics. They should be discussed and without any slamming down of the gavel with the all-too-frequent, "The decision has been made!"

It hasn't been made. It must be discussed and the rights of people to do with their lives as they wish should not be impinged in any way, shape or form.

It just kills me when people believe they should be able to make decisions for other people.

--Wag--

 

[thepushercg]

i have told my wife to never leave me hooked to a machine if something happens to me. take the terry schaivo case, i agreed with her husband, for the simple fact she was brain dead and was not coming back. the right to choose is up to the person as long as they are of sound mind. then somehow that would be circumvented by someone.

 

[Big Wall]

I think one should be able to make that choice for themselves.

 

[StuckInBaghdad]

I don't believe the government should control ANYTHING in our personal lives. That includes any and all crime in which there is no victim. "Victimless crimes" I will never understand, how is there a crime with no victim?

 

[MoosesBusa]

If I'm Brain dead, I'm Dead. Don't waste the electricity. If I'm crippled, Sux to be me. If I'm a Vegetable without voice. Push me out the top floor window. Hopefully I'll feel the wind in my hair one last time. IF I can be useful to God, leave me here. Otherwise i'd like to see him face to face as quickly as possible.

 

[Projekt]

Might be a little too thought provoking, but good topic at any rate.

My view.  I believe that everyone has the right to make individual choices that define their lives.  

Liberty is one of our great endowments bestowed upon us by our founding fathers.  Liberty involves the capacity to make decisions that affect an individual.  Suicide wasn’t probably considered by our founders, but nevertheless is included.  

The courts don’t seem to agree at this point with my views, but times are changing.

As a person working in healthcare, specifically psychiatry, the topic of suicide comes up often.  I see all kinds of different situations and nightmares during the course of my day.  I try to empathize and consider how I would react in similar circumstances.

Imagine being in constant excruciating pain with no relief expected and likely to worsen.  That’s not quality of life, but mere existence.  In those terms, I can’t really fault those who choose the lesser or two evils. (death over never ending pain).  

No matter what the particular circumstance is, I know that I would like to be able to make MY OWN decisions that affect my life (or death).  

In summary, I believe that if a person is not encumbered with psychiatric illness or incompetence, then they should have the ability to determine their own end.  I am certainly not “pro suicide†but simply believe in a person’s sovereign right of self-determination.  

I’m interested to see where this topic goes.

Chris

It'll be difficult to express my opinion any better than this.
 Concerning Kevorkian, I believe he is a pioneer, that he simply publicised what happens in private homes around the world.
 People's civil liberties should include the right to self terminate. Obviously, a great deal of suffering, or incapacititation would factor in. Having said that, where does the envelope go to include major, genetically transmitted psychiatric disorders, those that to date are not effectively manageable? You have a broadscope of productivity limiting disorders that make the sufferer experience severe mental and physical manifestations so painful that you might as well have cancer. I would go as far as to say that some mental disease could be as bad as physiological systemic disease elsewhere in the body.

 

[Projekt]

Well even in the cases of Suicide, If a person chooses they can get a license, after a 6 month course (Their Expense) and a cooling off period.  You can have your suicide approved.  

That would be handy...  

 

OH OH what if you could VOTE someone OFF the ISLAND?

Then you'd haf'ta catch'em first... Good one!!

 

[frisbee]

If I'm Brain dead, I'm Dead. Don't waste the electricity. If I'm crippled, Sux to be me. If I'm a Vegetable without voice. Push me out the top floor window. Hopefully I'll feel the wind in my hair one last time. IF I can be useful to God, leave me here. Otherwise i'd like to see him face to face as quickly as possible.

+1

 

[Projekt]

Okay,
If I can no longer use the bathroom independently, without depends, the ability to wipe myself, or without a colostomy. I opt out...
If I can no longer recognize my loved ones or much less communicate with them. I opt out.
If I can no longer have a pain free existance without excessive amounts of mind altering drugs. I opt out.
If I can no longer control my own body due to deterioration of my mind via disease. I opt out.

When someone really wants to end it, they will end it. No amount of convincing will prevent them. They will find a way, out the window, off a cliff, with a firearm, sharps, pharmaceuticals, or combinations. If I can still ride, I'll find myself a TRE and a five mile straight with a cement structure at the end and hit 200mph before fragmenting myself and my dearest love the Hayabusa.

 

[Wag]

When someone really wants to end it, they will end it. No amount of convincing will prevent them. They will find a way . . .

The problem is when someone is physically incapable of ending it for themselves. A person without the use of his arms has to get someone else's assistance to do so.

That's where the problem lies. Anyone who helps someone's "final exit" is guilty of murder. A doctor has an additional conflict with the hyppocratic (sp?) oath.

--Wag--