Velocity Stacks

[dmrowe]

I didn't read much of this thread, but I like mine, work or not.
Thanks Marc.

I am glad you like them Mike, and I do have admit that they sure did look pretty when I put them in.

After I got the result of my dyno tune I called Marc and asked him about the difficulties I was encountering, all I got was engineering gobbledy gook about how worthless Dynojet was and the mathematical calculations he uses to develop his velocity stacks. When I asked him if he used a flow bench to prove out his results he said 'NO' and proceeded to explain why a flow bench is worthless. Well I am old school, you can show me all the calculations you want and tell me that green is yellow but I want empirical proof. Put it on a dyno or put it on a flow bench and show me that it moves more air or increases horsepower. Now, Marc didn't offer any constructive advice, offer for me to bring my bike up to his shop so he could run it on his dyno or even offer to see that I got my money back since I was unhappy. Instead he shows up 4 years later on two different boards and starts disputing the dyno results as 'funky' because he wants to sell his shid on the org. Now all you guys are all free to buy and believe anything you want and you can disregard anything that I say since it is only my opinion. But his velocity stacks did not work for me and he didn't offer any help when I called him about them. So as far as Factory Pro is concerned they could have a mathmatical process that claims to turn an old Honda 350 into a Hayabusa I would say that it sounds like BS. I have never disputed the fact that veleocity stacks work, I just said this his didn't and for $250+ they were a waste of money. People can offer testimonials that they feel a crisper throttle response or all they can see is their buddies in their rear view mirror (), but put it on a dyno and do a before and after and prove that the high priced stuff is better than the $12 factory shorty's. Until then, I will continue to poke this guy in they eye when he starts trying to sell his sheep dip as the magic elixer of horsepower. Prove it Marc, get a Hayabusa and do a before and after on your dyno vs. Dynojet and your fancy stacks vs. the stock factory shorty's and have an impartial third party validate your testing...because I don't trust you. You got me once because I believed your advertising but you won't do it again and as a member of this board (and others) I will warn the other members to do their research unless they have money to burn and or just want to give it to you.

 

[Fastmax32168]

Well I am old school, you can show me all the calculations you want and tell me that green is yellow but I want empirical proof.

People can offer testimonials that they feel a crisper throttle response or all they can see is their buddies in their rear view mirror (),

Sorry but I am going to have to back you up a bit since you felt my post was funny enough to quote and to type your little ROFL man behind.

First off I cannot vouch for the use of stacks on a gen 1 busa.
I also cannot vouch for the use of stacks on a gen 2 busa.

I can however vouch for the fact that they worked quite well on my Vstrom. If you would take the time to read my response more closely you would see that I tested them against a known comparable source (a real world one by the way that I have ridden thousands of miles beside and probably done dozens of full throttle acceleration runs next to) both before and after the installation of them.
The results were quite obvious, and quite repeatable. But perhaps by empirical evidence what you really want is evidence you have done yourself.
Because other peoples dyno charts are apparently not acceptable to you, other peoples acceleration testing is apparently not acceptable to you, because obviously everybody whose results don't agree with yours must be lying or a sucker.

I am not here trying to sell anything, but I can tell you that I have been doing this type of thing a long time, and I always carefully test my mods both before and after I install them to make sure I went forwards and not backwards. I do this because a seat of the pants dyno is not very accurate.

There are however many more ways to test mods than a Dynojet with a little printed graph to show everybody.

I dont doubt that your dyno charts are real, and that what happened to you is real. What I cannot accept however is that there was not something else going on here. I can come up with several logical reasons why a set of stacks would cause such a drop off. One is they are too long and are moving the power lower. But I dont think that is the case here. Two is that they were packing in too much air at that RPM and throwing off the A/F ratio. If I had to guess at something that would be it. There may be more but...
I also am one for empirical evidence. What I would like to see is some sort of a logical explanation from you as to how these stacks are so poorly designed that they could cause such a severe drop off of power. You see I am always interested in why something happened, not just that it did. Some sort of technical explanation to back up your empirical evidence would be nice. I am not going to get it because that is not the case, and there isn't one.
I think that those stacks, in your particular combination, on a gen 1 busa, (and this is the gen 2 busa section BTW) created a condition that caused your bike to lose HP.
But I do not believe that means that it couldn't have been tuned out or corrected somehow, and probably has no more meaning on how they are going to work on someone elses Gen 2 busa than my Vstrom test does.
I am very happy with them on my Strom, so I believe I will post before and after dyno results on my Bking when I install a set, good or bad. If they dont work for me you can do cartwheels. But if they do work for me than that evidence probably wont be acceptable to you either....I must have fudged it somehow....
Roy

 

[2busa]

After I got the result of my dyno tune I called Marc and asked him about the difficulties I was encountering, all I got was engineering gobbledy gook about how worthless Dynojet was and the mathematical calculations he uses to develop his velocity stacks.

Who needs math is just watch a dial move is make a move on the fuel trim. I'm on the dynobutt with a wide band meter reader. I can follow the lean/rich trim and now a dynojet is worthless? Explain please, Marc...

When I asked him if he used a flow bench to prove out his results he said 'NO' and proceeded to explain why a flow bench is worthless.

Marrrrrrrc! ??? What? Can you dis here tate is to take us through it... Say, a few sentences or less. Just the abstract of the concept a flow bench is worthless.

Well I am old school, you can show me all the calculations you want and tell me that green is yellow but I want empirical proof. Put it on a dyno or put it on a flow bench and show me that it moves more air or increases horsepower.

Well, I must be real old school, because I trust no one. I have to see it, feel it, test ride it. I've done my homework and now will study fuel pressures under throttle load is video that little scenario and see if the ignition cuts out or the fuel drops or both. See, Marc, I run video on my rolling dyno. Camera mounts specifically built to read data off the bike's mechanical moves or run gauges and watch those flow moves.

Now, Marc didn't offer any constructive advice, offer for me to bring my bike up to his shop so he could run it on his dyno or even offer to see that I got my money back since I was unhappy.

There is a challenge for you. I'd take you up on it, if I had Marc's dyno.

Instead he shows up 4 years later on two different boards and starts disputing the dyno results as 'funky' because he wants to sell his shid on the org. I have never disputed the fact that veleocity stacks work, I just said this his didn't and for $250+ they were a waste of money.

Blindsided... Holdon, Cowboy. I would have to think that stack would work well on some configuration. Maybe the box needs more ceiling for those long stacks? Maybe if we had a dyno and a cut air box, Marc's set might follow through? Hey, I'm not taking sides. I'm looking at your setup objectively and maybe they took up too much box?

Until then, I will continue to poke this guy in the eye when he starts trying to sell his sheep dip as the magic elixer of horsepower. Prove it Marc, get a Hayabusa and do a before and after on your dyno vs. Dynojet and your fancy stacks vs. the stock factory shorty's and have an impartial third party validate your testing...because I don't trust you.

Marc? Pretty strong words. If, demro, offers you his Busa with your stacks, I'd sure squash this real quick. No charge. Just a few pulls with cover on and just move the service access cover; up the box to see her pull ponies or your wank ear.

You got me once because I believed your advertising but you won't do it again and as a member of this board (and others) I will warn the other members to do their research unless they have money to burn and or just want to give it to you.

See, dis is where I come in and rattle some cages about high tech is low tech is common sense tuning. While you are cashing out, I'm more cashing in on the laughter behind this keyboard. I'm all about basic fun dumb mental case is are case loads of elixirs out there to choose from. Not my problem some are too dumb to notice it takes more to tuning than just throwing parts at it. And no, demro, that was not addressed to you, but generally speaking; I've seen it over and over about modding A bike.

Live and learn... Yeah, I want to pass dis along is lip service is more like pass along lip her peas. Go puff... No, go past GO...

Man, demro, you are brutal! Hold nothing back there, Cowboy. And you should know this is just bike BS, Marc. I'm not taking sides. I'm just discussing velocity stacks and "more air" vs. 'faster air speed" being the subject matter if it matters at all.

 

[dmrowe]

Sorry but I am going to have to back you up a bit since you felt my post was funny enough to quote and to type your little ROFL man behind.

First off I cannot vouch for the use of stacks on a gen 1 busa.
I also cannot vouch for the use of stacks on a gen 2 busa.

I can however vouch for the fact that they worked quite well on my Vstrom. If you would take the time to read my response more closely you would see that I tested them against a known comparable source (a real world one by the way that I have ridden thousands of miles beside and probably done dozens of full throttle acceleration runs next to) both before and after the installation of them.
The results were quite obvious, and quite repeatable. But perhaps by empirical evidence what you really want is evidence you have done yourself.
Because other peoples dyno charts are apparently not acceptable to you, other peoples acceleration testing is apparently not acceptable to you, because obviously everybody whose results don't agree with yours must be lying or a sucker.

I am not here trying to sell anything, but I can tell you that I have been doing this type of thing a long time, and I always carefully test my mods both before and after I install them to make sure I went forwards and not backwards. I do this because a seat of the pants dyno is not very accurate.

There are however many more ways to test mods than a Dynojet with a little printed graph to show everybody.

I dont doubt that your dyno charts are real, and that what happened to you is real. What I cannot accept however is that there was not something else going on here. I can come up with several logical reasons why a set of stacks would cause such a drop off. One is they are too long and are moving the power lower. But I dont think that is the case here. Two is that they were packing in too much air at that RPM and throwing off the A/F ratio. If I had to guess at something that would be it. There may be more but...
I also am one for empirical evidence. What I would like to see is some sort of a logical explanation from you as to how these stacks are so poorly designed that they could cause such a severe drop off of power. You see I am always interested in why something happened, not just that it did. Some sort of technical explanation to back up your empirical evidence would be nice. I am not going to get it because that is not the case, and there isn't one.
I think that those stacks, in your particular combination, on a gen 1 busa, (and this is the gen 2 busa section BTW) created a condition that caused your bike to lose HP.
But I do not believe that means that it couldn't have been tuned out or corrected somehow, and probably has no more meaning on how they are going to work on someone elses Gen 2 busa than my Vstrom test does.
I am very happy with them on my Strom, so I believe I will post before and after dyno results on my Bking when I install a set, good or bad. If they dont work for me you can do cartwheels. But if they do work for me than that evidence probably wont be acceptable to you either....I must have fudged it somehow....
Roy

I am beginning to think I dropped into the Acorn thread.. First of all it was my charts that were unacceptable because the were funky. Secondly, I find it amusing that since you put the v-stacks on your Vstorm that they produced such an outstanding HP improvement that you were able to pull bike lengths away from you buddy, I suspect there was more to it than that unless he weighs 350 lbs. Secondly my challenge still stands for Marc to step up and prove his product really works against the $12 option. All Marc has done is say that the Dynojet will not give you an accurate measurement of RWHP, in my telecon with him 4 yrs. ago he also poo-pooed flow benches as a method of measurement. Far as I am concerned if the product works great for you (actually or perceptually) than fine I am happy for you. I am not the one who resurrected this this two year old thread by calling somebody's result 'funky' because they don't support their adverstising campaign. As as far as 'little charts', well I am old school and I use to tune and check mods by running a bike through 1/4 miles, doing high speed shut off's to check spark plug color and exhaust pipe color and even burned a few holes in pistons doing it so don't preach to the choir. What ticked me off was that Factory Pro didn't offer me any advice or service after the sale except a bunch of rhetoric and then comes strutting in like the BMOC. The dynomometer gives us a valuable tool to measure and gauge performance improvements, if you don't like the 'little charts' then don't use them. I found that the cost of using a dyno was far more productive and valuable than the money I spent on velocity stacks...simple as that. If I offended you I apologize, but this is my opinion and this forum is open for the expression of opinions and if Marc thinks it is haranguing his loyal and satisfied customers than that is just tough as I am neither a loyal or satisfied customer after my experience and I am not afraid to say so.

Yes I do know this is a Gen II Section, at least I was speaking about my experience with a Hayabusa and not a V-Storm. The original question was did anyone have any experience with velocity stacks...didn't say only Gen II owners need respond. I posted my response on 11-09-2008 and Marc is just now coming out to question the results? Bottom line, if you own a Hayabusa and want to experiment with V-Stacks try the $12 alternative before you spend $250. JMHO

 

[Fastmax32168]

I find it amusing that since you put the v-stacks on your Vstorm that they produced such an outstanding HP improvement that you were able to pull bike lengths away from you buddy, I suspect there was more to it than that unless he weighs 350 lbs.

I can understand why you would feel that way as I could not believe the results myself. But the fact remains that the day before the two bikes ran neck and neck, and the next day mine trounces his like there is no tomorrow. The only change was the stacks. So in this particular application, they workum real good.

Secondly my challenge still stands for Marc to step up and prove his product really works against the $12 option. All Marc has done is say that the Dynojet will not give you an accurate measurement of RWHP, in my telecon with him 4 yrs. ago he also poo-pooed flow benches as a method of measurement. Far as I am concerned if the product works great for you (actually or perceptually) than fine I am happy for you. I am not the one who resurrected this this two year old thread by calling somebody's result 'funky' because they don't support their adverstising campaign.

I only recently saw this thread so am not aware of its age. I have never had a bad experience with Factory pro, and have been using their products, and gotten good support, since the first jet kit I put in my Vmax many years ago.

If I offended you I apologize, but this is my opinion and this forum is open for the expression of opinions

Hey I just wanted you to be clear that this was not some haphazard butt dyno deal, and dont be poking at my actual results. I will live I think.
I also wanted to point out that just because something didnt work on one thing, one time, doesnt mean that it wont work on another.
As far as your experience with Marc and Factory pro, well all I can say is that it differs drastically from mine.
Roy

 

[Marc Salvisberg]

Mathematically designed stacks:
If there's one thing that I never, never, never said or say, past or present, it's that I mathematically calculate ANY final design on a velocity stack. It is absolutely absurd, from my point of view, to calculate the optimal ID, length and inlet radius and be sure that it's optimal or even close to optimal for an engine without doing fully loaded dyno testing.
Why would I say it? Why would you say I said it?
I never said it.

Final stack design is always the result of fully loaded dyno testing and only occasionally matches calculated lengths and has never match flow bench derived shapes.
(2Busa - If the stacks were too close to the airbox lid, I would have made less power and I would have shortened them and re dyno tested).

What actually works in an engine, can be either close to calculated or inches away from the calcs. You never know ahead of time.

Flow Benches and Stack Design:
As far as "proving" that a stack "works" on a flow bench?
As I would have explained, if I was really asked about "flow bench proof" -
I would have probably explained it like this:
A flow bench only measures steady flow, like a vacuum cleaner makes. An engine's intake air flows IN and OUT during each 4 cycle series - which is a greatly different set of conditions and velocities as compared to a flow bench sucking air at maybe 12 inches of steady vacuum.
A flow bench doesn't measure pressure waves, either. And an engine relies of pressure waves for additional power - making a flow bench "useless" for determining stack lengths and radii.
Look a a modern bike's stacks - they look more like the Factory Pro

As far as how stacks work, (pressure wave resonance, inertial mass of a column of air and mass airflow) I know that old school oscillating Slinkies and pump BB guns shooting columns of air that have obvious mass as examples are pretty high tech examples of physics and difficult to follow as they relate to intake ports, but a lot of people kinda get the drift that there's more to an intake tract than just air flow.

Dyno Results:
I posted somebody else's GEN 2 Dynojet positive results and people posted their own positive Dynojet GEN 2 results on this GEN 2 thread. And low and behold, they aren't anything like the dismal Gen ONE results that Lee's Cycle's in San Diego got.

As far as offering tuning:
I believe that I would have offered that, if it would have made any difference. But after your first forum post, you decided to get on your own soapbox and bash us.
You didn't mention it, and I hadn't mentioned it before now, but I had seen your forum posts before you called - your aggressively negative attitude in your posts preceded you.

If I had a guy who called up and said, "Hey, I have a problem, do you know what is wrong?" - of course I'd offer to help. I've done it many, many times over the years - sent out different carb needles, jets, stacks to help dial in a particular bike. Done free dyno testing and tuning for a shop that couldn't figure out a weird jetting thing - Even did free dyno work for 2 Gen 1 guys so I could get another couple of Busa's under my belt to make sure that the bike I did my original testing on wasn't a fluke (and it wasn't).

As far as your GEN ONE dyno tests:
I agree with Roy -
Me?
I'm believing that those are dyno tests and that Lee's did them, but also believe that there's some other reason besides the stack design that your GEN ONE made so much less power with the same Factory Pro stacks that other people got decent results on their GEN ONE's.
And so much more power with the Suzuki short stacks? Which should have been only about 2 better at peak (not 6 peak as Lee's got). Feedback from regular people who use 4 short Suzuki stacks on a stock engine is usually that it "might" be the same or "maybe" a little stronger on top and that they lost a little lowend and that echoes my testing results w 4 short Suzuki stacks.

Something's wrong with the testing or tuning or different about the bike or modified on the bike.

RE This Thread:
By this 5th page, I think that:
I've written so much tech stuff that people are confuzed, have glazed eyes and have unsubscribed - and
People are tired of reading Rowe's ranting posts and my difficult to follow responses - and
Supportive, on thread posters, addressing statements that our stacks are "snake oil", have taken enough of Rowe's derision and ridicule - and
2Busa has me somewhat confused, but, scarily, I'm starting to understand a bit more about his point of view -

Can this thread be locked?

If someone wants to talk about something that I can help with (general tuning, FI and IGN tuning, stacks, shifting, cam timing tuning, etc.) start a new thread and email me at marc@factorypro.com with a link -and if Rowe posts even ONE annoying post in the new thread, you guys are on your own.

Thanks -

Marc

 

[2busa]

2Busa has me somewhat confused, but, scarily, I'm starting to understand a bit more about his point of view -

Can this thread be locked?

Thanks -

Marc

Sounds like a compliment. And why shut things down. This is a 5-Start post with some good info. I guess whoever set that constellation in the thread, thinks this has potential and now you want to lock down a thread that to me is making you look good. I do not see where you are going to give up the goods, nudge-nudge, poke-poke, you know.

This is a tuning party and what happens to a velocity stack. I'm just a bleacher bum or an armchair wannabe tuner upper.

 

[mike1180]

Yeah I've had enough too.
Bye all.

 

[Busakid08]

I wonder if they really work then ............................lol

 

[dmrowe]

Like I told you before SALVISBERG, it's Dennis to my friends and MR. ROWE to everyone else.
Isn't it annoying when you have a dissatisfied customer? Now you are Mr. "I want to be helpful", maybe you should have tried that 4 yrs. ago before I posted. As for for me, I am heading for the park with my.....


But be forwarned, if someone posts and asks the question about veleocity stacks before using search I will post right up! And as for 'one more annoying post'....


LOL, all of us have always been on our and were before you ever came along MR. SALVISBERG. Everyone is free to make decisions on their own without fear of repercussions (or threats). I am only sharing my wonderful experience and recommending that before someone spend the money on nice shiney velocity stacks that they try the budget price alternative. OMG I said it again.

Annoying enough for you?

 

[2busa]

I wonder if they really work then ............................lol

Yes.
_________________________________

Likeye said, keep your eye on the ball. There are so many ways to tune the FI, every move you make will upset the boat. That is why, 'Mikey likes it' and does not need to participate. Gonna miss the boat, fella!

You see, the way I sea it in the world of competition, you are as good as your last road test. You, and again, I am not pointing fingers, I am saying, yes, throw those V-stacks at it, throw $12 stacks at it.

YO YO You are going to go up and down with part after part, you upset base BS>. Box Stock says, "Something IS Not RIGHT, and now you go and bash is the SalvISberg IS bend him over, Pick every dingle berry out of there and squeeze a pimple to spite your face is install and go?

Go on the net and barkabout a V-Stack like you install a 4-in-1 for one tune, then a slip-on for another tune. Say, the one pipe takes the flow and ups the HP a notch. You swap out pipes, now the $12 stacks no like

Yeah, that's WOT dial do is go on line, ??? Lets see? I'm going to start pointing fingers, my bike runs like crap I installed these mighty stacks.

You can't even follow the engine flow is how you gonna start in with a set of stacks or pipes to do what? I said, this is the big top. Your choice you pull in the pits, load up, call it quits.

Big boys clean up the LAP... In other words, "The Best Can Be Beaten" and you gave up, already went home with your tail pipe under your...


We don't play buy the rules. We outhink the big boys.


Like, I hide, you seek as if I'm about to show you my hand? Marc shows you his?


YOu think reading some thread and a few posts is going to get you to be all you can be, and you have yet to show any HP with any part handed to you and now point fingers?


Simmer down, Johnny... It's just a bike. It's just a part. It's all about the tune and the mirror better be finger sharp before they turn around start walking back to that bike and when one part is changed, you upset 3 to 5 other disturbing variables, you'll be walls that have to be redialed-in YOU did not square away the bike back close being, BS, did you?

It's doing something funny and if you think the factory just throws parts at that smooth linear climb from the moment you touch the starter button, it is running before you remove your finger off the trigger is base bone stock, no BS.

YOu upset the trigger finger and now you keep holding that button in thinking that is all that is needed and did I not mention the 5 variables that might crop up and have you touched any?

No, one guy says they work fine in one bike, take another bike and you get a complaint, someone did not tune out the variable(s)?

Finger Pointing Tuning ain't gonna get far on the track let alone trophy out.

 

[Busakid08]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[2busa]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Quack, post toast teas it all over the net is put the world to sleepee time blues is cry the blues to someone else, barney.

You asked if it worked. Remember? LOL?

Tre works, right? LOL?

 

[TruWrecks]

This thread has soooo much banter that the USEFUL information is lost.

Thanks for nothing.

 

[Rainbow7]

Glenn Henderson, Australia at his local track.
+ 1.5 to 2 mph from stock stacks - all stock engine, Yosh exhaust.
Shifting at 10.3 k
He understood optimal shift points. Some was the stacks and some was getting the right shift points. Originally he was shifting right below the rev limit with stock stacks.

M

Glen is the guy who flashed my ECU, to match the stacks I had installed. I'm happy with the results. When I take "Siouxsie" to Eastern Creek (raceway) I'll let you know how she goes.

 

[banditzx10]

after reading all this well most of it . my gen 2 has only short cans on at the minute with k/n filter . plus racing plugs . and just got power comander 5 put on before i took her off road for winter . am geting 184.33 rear wheel 113.09 torque. shes geting vance and hines headers on next month when weather better then back up to dino . i was going to do the stacks but after reading i wont bother . hoping to get 5 bhp more with new headers . 190 at the rear would be nice but if i see 4 or 5 more with the srtaight through headers am happy

 

[1busa]

Do like a did and buy a pair used off ebay or somebody on here for a 1/4 of the original price

 

[banditzx10]

yes going to buy gsxr1000 k7 stock stacks and add the 2 short ones to mine

 

[Mythos]

Just got off phone with guys at fuel moto, there is no dyno maps for the stacks, because they see no real gain in horsepower on the machine.

Race filter wont really require a map adjustment either. 1-2 hp, top end. well worth $80 but not a big gain in the grand scheme.

I tried the Factory Pro velocity stacks and they were a waste of money. You are better off using 4 short OEM stacks and they only cost a couple of bucks each.

The busa has 2 short and 2 long, right? What is the short stack for, again? To move the peak power from midrange up to the top end?

 

[banditzx10]

if you add all 4 short stacks you get a little more at top end