Jeff since you're new and you'll never find it yourself, here is some of the debate regarding your dyno tuning of my bike that went on on this and another forum:
Note: This forum cannot show the scans of your dyno charts, so you'have to try to make sense of my references to those charts.
MESSAGES COPIED FOR JEFF:
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ME TALKING: My initial dyno results were WAY below norms, but switching gas and dynos brought results up to norms.
FIRST THE BAD NEWS:
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OK this is a detailed report, but I'll try to make it worth your while.
To put things in context:
1. I'm disappointed and confused with my 164 STD rwhp number. It's only 159.2 in SAE
2. My dyno tuner is a specialist who has dynoed/dynotuned 160 Hayabusas (a mix of stockers and racers.) He states flatly that mine is the strongest Hayabusa with no engine mods (just pipe, filter and box) he's done. He further says, and has authorized me to post this challenge here, that if anybody can beat my numbers on his dyno with a Hayabusa that has no engine mods, their dyno-tuning is free. Call Jeff at Brampton Cycle (905) 791-4011.
3. Jeff's dyno is a new in-ground Dynojet that he recalibrates on the Dynojet site regularly.
4. My bike has an Akrapovic pipe, BMC filter, full box cut, PAIR valve removed, full synth oil and a bunch of other performance mods that are not relevant to dynoing.
5. The 161 rwhp figure I gave you for my pre-Akra mods was, unbeknownst to me, STD, not SAE hp and was based on a four gear run which is not a proper figure. ONLY one gear roll-ons (in my case 4th gear) count for peak rwhp.
SCAN ONE: These are the runs I did yesterday. They are expressed in STD, not SAE rwhp. SAE is the standard used for sanctioned bike racing and gives a rwhp figure that's about 4 hp less than STD rwhp. In other words, STD figures are happy figures.
Run 010 is after Yosh box tuning (remapping) -5 in mid and top and retarding low end ignition.
Run 006 is pre-remapping.
Run 003 is what I did on the same dyno last September with stock headers and air filter, full box cut and Yosh RS-3 slip-ons. The weather that was 10 degrees F. colder but the dyno corrects for that.
SCAN TWO: This chart is expressed in SAE, not STD. Run 006 is yesterday's post-remapping run. As you can see, SAE reads 4.2 rwhp lower than STD. Run 003 is last September's run.
This chart demonstrates that I have gained only 3.2 SAE rwhp, or 3.3 STD rwhp from the addition of the Akrapovic pipe, the BMC filter and the synthetic oil. Remember that I had gained about 3 rwhp SAE from the boxcut and Yosh slip-ons, so the net gain from stock pipe to Akra pipe and BMC is 6.2 SAE rwhp.
I am not interested in trying another dyno, as they all read within a percent or so as long as they're properly calibrated on the Dynojet website.
QUESTION: Do you suspect that some dynos are NOT faithfully calibrated, that numbers are NOT reported in STD, not SAE figures, and that unscrupulous dyno operators adjust weather factors in order to give their clients "happy readouts?"
Despite the fact that my improvement from the box, filter and Akra is only 2 STD rwhp short of the result obtained by Turbo Rick, I am cancelling my plan to put in Yosh Stage One cams, as my confidence in the figures I have seen reported on the boards has been shaken. The cost, trouble, and reliability sacrifice associated with putting in cams does not reflect the potential hp payout.
Gixx1300R
Member posted March 09, 2000 07:01 AM
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Hey Pete,I'll take his challenge on horsepower with a stock Busa.I have both Actual and corrected Dyno charts for my bike and it has more than 160 at the rearwheel.My Torque is also availible.E mail me at
Gixx1300R@aol.com and I will send them both to you so you can print them out to give them to your Dyno operator.If he would like to confirm my Dyno reading he can call Jeff Tate at Somethin Extra Cycle 407-869-8898 and e mail Felix Lugo at
Coco@att.com,Joe Cooper at
FrqFlyer@aol.com Felix also has Video clips of our Dyno runs availible.
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ME: Nick I have no doubt that your SAE figures are correct. My dyno tuner's offer requires you to put your bike on HIS dyno, so realistically it's just for guys around here...upstate New York, Detroit, Ontario and Quebec.
You got a great bike. My guy, who does nothin' but hi-po dyno tuning says the Busas are fairly consistently around 153 SAE rwhp stock, with little variation. Mine was a little over 154. So a Busa owner's chance of getting a "Monday Bike" as opposed to a "Wednesday Bike" are slim. Your bike is WAY outside the envelope.
He added that R-1s have a lot of swing in this regard. "Give me 10 random stock R-1s on the same day and I'll see a variation of 10 SAE rwhp between them.
Dirty Pete
posted March 09, 2000 07:29 AM
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As for the possibility of dyno variations, get this: My tuner told me that he had been up to visit the Hindle factory and that Lang Hindle told him "I put my new pipe on a ZX12R and got 174 rwhp."
I've got to believe THAT's a happy dyno.
Hindle, who is my neighbor, has offered to dyno me on his factory floor dyno in return for letting him measure me up for a high pipe. As soon as he gets back from Daytona I'll take him up on that and let you know what HIS dyno says about my set-up.
Meanwhile I AM going to run over to another dyno at a second location this afternoon, weather permitting. It's a filthy old mobile Dynojet 150 and I'll bet the guy has NEVER calibrated it on the Dynojet website.
HEY, if you don't like what your doctor's diagnosis, just keep seeing doctors till you find one who tells you what you want to hear, right?
Gixx1300R
Member posted March 09, 2000 07:36 AM
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Pete I have personally witnessed Dyno runs on 13 different Hayabusa and mid 150s are the norm for completely stock bikes.I have seen as low as 149.I guess my bike is a Friday payday,I got laid and won the lotto bike.Everyone here swears that I have done some kind of modifications but I havent.I won a $500 bet from another Busa owner here because of my high horsepower output.Now I do believe when I install my exhaust I wont see much increase in horsepower.I have a Dyno chart for a Joe's bike,he has an Akrapovic exhaust and a BMC filter with no airbox mod.Joe started off with 151 horsepower.His bike was remapped with a Yosh Box
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/ViewPhoto?u=114261&a=1531390&p=15247716 <<Joe's Dyno chart
Dirty Pete
posted March 09, 2000 07:42 AM
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I can't read that too well, it's very faint, but I think it says 162.5 peak. Thanks.
Dirty Pete
posted March 09, 2000 12:24 PM
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Just got back from a second dyno on a different dyno, with a different operator.
165 SAE rwhp, which is much more in line with what Turbo Rick achieved on his with the same mods.
That is a difference of 6 full SAE rwhp between 2 supposedly fully calibrated Dynojet 150s used only one day apart in identical weather conditions.
The first run we pulled on this second dyno was only 162 hp, but by looking at the chart we could see from a big WOW in the line that the tire was slipping like mad.
We cinched down the straps MUCH more tightly and immediately came up with 165 peak SAE rwhp.
The difference was that the tire was slipping badly. Watch for this. Not all dyno operators may be used to horsepower this high and they may not be strapping down hard enough.
In STD measurement, this would have been 170+ rwhp.
The sole difference on the bike between the 2 runs was that I switched gas from high octane non-branded to Shell premium.
[This message has been edited by Dirty Pete (edited March 09, 2000).]
GSXRTURBO1
Member posted March 09, 2000 12:42 PM
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That you used Shell premium versus a no-name brand may be your difference. The BTU content of the no-name gas may have been lower, or perhaps even the gas was older. I think the light refractions(?) evaporate which can result in a lower power output per unit of fuel used. Optimum power when using different gasolines may require different timing and "jetting". If it were me I would always use the same type/brand of fuel when dynoing to avoid headaches. All in all impressive numbers. Just think, these numbers were not so easily obtained just a year ago, and now anyone with $10,000 can go to your local Suzuki dealer and buy them. WITH a warranty.
Dirty Pete
posted March 09, 2000 01:26 PM
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TURBO1 I talked this with my first dyno guy and he's going to go on line at .ORG to discuss the fuel issue.
He does Super Bikes and says he's had pump fuel variances of up to 7 hp on 170 rwhp Super Bikes.
gsx1300rguy
Member posted March 09, 2000 02:03 PM
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Pete,I got my bike back from ECP performance in Waterbury Conn.When I brought the bike in it had the Yosh Tri-oval,air box mod ,BMC,and a 16 tooth and a +5+5+5 setting.The bike also had a tank of winterized fuel that had been sitting for three months.The test were done on a 150 dyno with a 1000 lb wheel in stead of the standard 700/900.The first run was 140hp/88 ftlbs.He put in a new map and fixed a vacume leak and did a few more runs changed the settings to 0,0,+5 and got 150hp/95ftlbs.He then installed the cams did a few more runs put a +5+5+10 and got 165hp/105ft lbs.All the runs are SAE and Fred also says the average the Busa`s are running are 150-155hp/90-95ft lbs.The bike picked up a shitload of hp/torque with the cams but Fred warned he had to degree them big time when he first installed them they were hitting the pistons! and were losing 30lbs of compression!!! He said this was unusuall for Yosh and he was pretty shocked ,so again I get the shaft.All the runs are 4th gear roll-on`s.All I can say is the bike is a different beast and the rideability is greatly improved.The scary part is I used to spank my buddies 98CBR900 and T595 into the weeds with my bike running shity....unbelievable. I figure with some fresh high octane and standard hp I should have 170-5/108-10 realistically.Gsx`s 168hp box stock is a lucky guy but I`m really happy with the out come.He definatly is a perfectionist,he put almost 100 dyno miles on my bike! This is the same guy "Fred Klies" who is building that Pro-Stock Busa.He did say with some head work,bumped compression and some bigger cams 200-220 rwhp is pretty easy to obtain.
Dirty Pete
posted March 09, 2000 05:24 PM
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GSX thanks for the input. I'm reconsidering the cams. I'll get back when I'm sane again...Friday morn.
redelk
posted March 09, 2000 05:39 PM
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I wonder what it would do with a tank full of VP Racing Fuels' C-12 112 Octane (or 107, depending on what method you use to measure octane). I've been running 5 gallons of this stuff, in my 7R, every weekend for over 2 1/2 years. I get it from my dealer for $4 a gallon ($5 retail). I usually blend it with Exxon 93 octane in a ratio that varies from 50/50 to 90(VP)/10(Exxon).
Though it contains a very small amount of lead, everyone has always said that it would not hurt ANYTHING (even at 100%). I've never had any problems and I think that it has had some influence on why my valves have NEVER had to be adjusted in over 68K miles!
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DP
When you bolted the Akro on did you actually feel a big difference in performance? Nevermind the Dyno print outs, I want to know if the bike felt alot stronger and did it have any hesitations without the PC II? Would you recommend buying an Akro pipe?
Dirty Pete
posted March 10, 2000 03:05 AM
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Yes SUPERMAN, my bum dyno said it make a big difference. In case you didn't see my more recent post, I'm now getting a 165 SAE rwhp readout...which is what Turbo Rick gets with his Akra and airbox cut. He actually got 166.
This is an 11 rwhp improvement over stock. In combo with the 16 tooth front, the bike feels like a rocket. If you like wheelies, and I know you do, you'll like the Akra & 16 tooth. You can read my immediate gut reaction right after installing it AND see photos of the install in my recent thread "Akra in, Cheap PAIR fix."
165 rwhp plus the 6% gear reduction gives you the same whack in the back as exactly 175 rwhp with normal gearing.
JCM please post your dyno results on this thread after your run tomorrow. Pointer on the Akra install: The final tube before the can melts the top edge of the tail belly fairing where it runs along close and parallel to it. Just stick a length of automotive muffler tape along this fairing edge...it looks good if it's chrome muffler tape. How is your clearance on the electric rad fan housing working out? Mine's about 1/4"...no melting, even during dyno work...but I'm concerned.
TURBO1 I agree that I ought to re-tune (remap) with the Shell gas, and that's exactly what my original dyno guy wants me to to do ASAP.
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I think I have learned that when it comes to fuel, what matters is the purity and flammability of the fuel. Ethanol additives are bad...look for them on the pump; Sunoco in Canada has up to 20% ethanol (that's fukken corn gas isn't it?) Shell has none, and they charge more for their premium even though it has lower octane (91 vs 94) than Sunoco.
We ALMOST know that Shell premium is better than non-branded high octane in Canada. One more dyno run on the low-registering dyno will show either that that dyno is in fact low OR that Shell produces 6 more rwhp in my Busa.
Makes sense. Cheap non-branded station chains have to buy on the spot market whatever dregs the Big Gas Companies who have their own refineries can't flog through their branded station chains.
Octane is irrelevant to power production in a stock compression Busa if it's higher than the manufacturer's rating, which is 87 pump octane (service manual spec.)
ME:
Thanks Jack. Just got back from a second dyno on a different dyno, with a different operator.
165 SAE rwhp, which is much more in line with what Turbo Rick achieved on his with the same mods.
That is a difference of 6 full SAE rwhp between 2 supposedly fully calibrated Dynojet 150s used only one day apart in identical weather conditions.
The first run we pulled on this second dyno was only 162 hp, but by looking at the chart we could see from a big WOW in the line that the tire was slipping like mad.
We cinched down the straps MUCH more tightly and immediately came up with 165 peak SAE rwhp.
The difference was that the tire was slipping badly. Watch for this. Not all dyno operators may be used to horsepower this high and they may not be strapping down hard enough.
In STD measurement, this would have been 170+ rwhp.
The sole difference on the bike between the 2 runs was that I switched gas from high octane non-branded to Shell premium.
[This message has been edited by Dirty Pete (edited 15 March 2000).]
