What do you think

[RedBull]

What evidence
of this do you
have ? ? ?

Americans Arrested While Taking Children From Haiti | Random Thoughts

10 Americans Arrested Taking Children From Haiti - AOL News

www.hayabusa.org

 

[Mr Brown]

It’s a table @Mr Brown . It lists numbers of various crimes committed according to race of the perpetrators.

When I hear the word, “murder” that to me means somebody killed somebody else and it was not accidental. What else would the word “murder” mean and why would it’s meaning be any different for black people than than any other color of person? I don’t know what else the FBI would mean by using the word, “murder” other than a human killing another human.

I used the term “violent crime” because murder is not the only crime listed on this table, it includes many other violent crimes including assault, rape, aggravated assault, etc. It also lists crimes which are not violent like theft, burglary and arson.

Setting aside for a moment the highly relevant fact that the tables you link to, from the UCR and DOJ , are accountings of arrests rather than convictions and as such don't actually report any murderers at all, that they are both well known to have problems, and that there is no explanation of how people are assigned a racial category, let's keep in mind that murder is a legal term, and it has specific parameters. It is possible to kill someone else on purpose and it not be considered murder. You started out saying there are as many black murderers as white, and did no further clarification. As one must be convicted of an offense not merely accused and arrested for it in order to be considered a murderer, the tables you refer to offer no support for your position.

I recall you explaining that racial bias in the workforce impacts black people and you persuaded me that probably is true. I do not recall you explaining that fewer murders are committed by black people than white people. I have not heard that from anyone and what I found indicates that black people and white people commit murder in about the same numbers.

See my previous statement.

I searched “violent crime according to race.” I’m not going to refer to any special interest groups such as Ebony magazine, the American NotC Party or the NAACP for this kind of information since there would very obviously be great potential bias involved in such information provided by those groups.

Among the top 5 hits in a search for “Crime statistics according to race” are:

The US Department of Justice
Arrests by offense, age, and race

The FBI
https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2017/crime-in-the-u.s.-2017/tables/table-43

4 News fact check

FactCheck: do black Americans commit more crime?

Anti-police protests continue across America after the Michael Brown killing. But does the black community have tough questions to answer too?

www.channel4.com

Wikipedia
Race and crime in the United States - Wikipedia





Even if you do literally do this for a living, are you a more reliable source than all of these, Mr Brown?

There's no "if", this is what I do. You're an art teacher if my memory serves, so I'd imagine you know some things about art. You've probably have some experience and education in the field, probably know more about it than a person like me who is neither educated or experienced in the area you specialize in. I have both experience and education with the topic we're discussing. I study and teach race, I'm a trained researcher. And I've lived my entire life as a racial minority in racialized societies. So on comparison to a Wikipedia page and a news channel report? Yes, I absolutely am a more reliable source of accurate information in my areas of expertise than both of those. Mainly because I understand how to correctly use the other two sources you identified. Which you clearly do not.

I was not pulling numbers out of my a$$ and what I call the truth is based on statistics published by reliable sources. No I am not angry but I am tired of pursuing this line of discussion with no facts that compel me to believe anything I have not already discovered myself.

Call it what you want, you are basing your opinion on things you either don't understand, or don't want to understand.

WHO cares what color the guy who shot this kid was? The kid is dead. Who cares what color George Floyd was or what color the cops involved in killing him are? These were murders and race had nothing to do with either as far as I know at this time. I already said all murders are bad no matter what color the victim or the killer was. Unless you have some reliable information that sheds new light on the whole topic of crime according to race, I’ll consider the discussion finished and do my best to go back to paying little to no attention to what color anyone else is. It’s not easy to do that with the constant barrage of racial finger pointing that is going on but I’ll try.

Who cares what color victims of murder are? What do you think is going on around you? Obviously many people around the country, hell around the world are recognizing that this country has a problem with systemic racism. To say that race has nothing to do with crime in this country is ridiculous. Race plays a part in what laws are made, how and where they're enforced, and what punishment is handed out. In fact, the criminal justice system is the perfect example of what the problem of race looks like. Imagine a country where one group makes up about 13% of the population, but they make up about 34% of the prison population. If you knew absolutely nothing else about this society, that is indicative of a problem. Either with that group, or with that society, but something is clearly going wrong.

 

[Mythos]

Setting aside for a moment the highly relevant fact that the tables you link to, from the UCR and DOJ , are accountings of arrests rather than convictions and as such don't actually report any murderers at all, that they are both well known to have problems, and that there is no explanation of how people are assigned a racial category, let's keep in mind that murder is a legal term, and it has specific parameters. It is possible to kill someone else on purpose and it not be considered murder. You started out saying there are as many black murderers as white, and did no further clarification. As one must be convicted of an offense not merely accused and arrested for it in order to be considered a murderer, the tables you refer to offer no support for your position.

Good point. You are saying a large percentage of black people accused of murder are innocent? What proof of that is there?

I have no idea how a person could kill another person on purpose without it being murder unless it was killing in self defense. Are you saying that a large percentage of black killers are killing in self defense? Do other colors of people kill in self defense as much as black people do?

If I'm going astray with the self defense angle, please tell me how else a person can kill someone on purpose without it being murder?

There's no "if", this is what I do. You're an art teacher if my memory serves, so I'd imagine you know some things about art. You've probably have some experience and education in the field, probably know more about it than a person like me who is neither educated or experienced in the area you specialize in. I have both experience and education with the topic we're discussing. I study and teach race, I'm a trained researcher. And I've lived my entire life as a racial minority in racialized societies. So on comparison to a Wikipedia page and a news channel report? Yes, I absolutely am a more reliable source of accurate information in my areas of expertise than both of those. Mainly because I understand how to correctly use the other two sources you identified. Which you clearly do not.

I didn't see Mr Brown come up when I did my google search of crime statistics but you're as qualified to write that Wiki article as much as the person that actually did as long as you can support your assertations with reliable data. Other experts write Wikipedia articles and if the info is based on opinion, the article is marked as such. Why is your info more reliable than the Wiki expert that wrote that article?

It's a good point you brought up about convictions v arrests. Where would I find that information? Are their any experts that feel blacks do commit as many murders as whites? I would have thought for sure some of that info would have been at the top of the list when I googled "crime statistics according to race."

In fact, the criminal justice system is the perfect example of what the problem of race looks like. Imagine a country where one group makes up about 13% of the population, but they make up about 34% of the prison population.

21% must have been convicted of a crime they didn't commit.

How many murders actually are commited by black people since I misinterpretted the information I found? If many of the black people accused of murder didn't kill anyone, who committed all those murders?

 

[Mythos]

Is your point that many black people are falsely accused of murder and other crimes that were actually committed by other colors of people? If that's it, where can I find that info?

Why was there so much crime (including murder) in the nearly all black inner city of Milwaukee when I lived there? I don't think that was other colors of people coming to the ghetto to commit crime.

 

[Mythos]

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

 

[Mr Brown]

I didn't make any claims. That would be you. All I did is explain why the evidence you used to support your claim, doesn't. Did you fail to grasp the difference between arrests and convictions when you referred to those statistics, or did you simply parrot something someone else said without actually taking the time to understand it? My guess is that in your zeal to find something, anything with which to justify your world view it was the latter. I don't know how many people (black or white) are wrongly accused (or convicted) of murder or other crimes, that's why I don't make inaccurate inflammatory statements about such things.
There are a host of ways in which a person can kill another person besides self defense and it not be classified as murder, and you know it. An obvious example is Darren Wilson. He killed Michael Brown and was never charged with a crime, much less convicted of murder. I've read the transcript of the grand jury proceedings, the fact that they failed to indicte was pathetic.

 

[fallenarch]

First of all this is a really good argument! @Mythos & @Mr Brown you are making some interesting points and counter points.

I think the big miss here is that those statistics which are broken down by race don't show anything about race at all. What they show is that people in certain income/opportunity/wealth categories are more violent. Much of the Black population lives in the more violent categories so the numbers are higher. For example, I have seen studies (which I cannot quote as I don't remember where) that Blacks in higher socioeconomic categories are significantly less likely to commit crimes than whites. So, the bottom line is that people generally react to their situation and those reactions are more similar between races than not. So while drawing a conclusion that Black people are more violent may be statistically correct (based on your statistics @Mythos ), it does not necessarily show that Blacks are naturally more likely to be violent.

I must admit I was surprised at those numbers because I have looked at them often and whites have always been the leaders in violent crimes. This has always been attributed to the crystal meth epidemic, which raced through the white community much like crack did the black community. I'll have to look closer at those numbers and ask my FBI buddies what's going on.

 

[Mr Brown]

First of all this is a really good argument! @Mythos & @Mr Brown you are making some interesting points and counter points.

I think the big miss here is that those statistics which are broken down by race don't show anything about race at all. What they show is that people in certain income/opportunity/wealth categories are more violent. Much of the Black population lives in the more violent categories so the numbers are higher. For example, I have seen studies (which I cannot quote as I don't remember where) that Blacks in higher socioeconomic categories are significantly less likely to commit crimes than whites. So, the bottom line is that people generally react to their situation and those reactions are more similar between races than not. So while drawing a conclusion that Black people are more violent may be statistically correct, it does not necessarily show that Blacks are naturally more likely to be violent.

I must admit I was surprised at those numbers because I have looked at them often and whites have always been the leaders in violent crimes. This has always been attributed to the crystal meth epidemic, which raced through the white community much like crack did the black community. I'll have to look closer at those numbers and ask my FBI buddies what's going on.

Yes, poverty is a leading indicator in likelihood of arrest for a given crime, but don't make the mistake of conflating arrest rates and commission rates. The wealthy are just as likely to violate laws, they're just less likely to be arrested for it, and even less likely to be convicted. As you know, black people are more likely to be poor than other groups, so it's reasonable that black people are more likely to be arrested as well.
Some other important keys to understanding the UCR and other crime stats are:
A) it's well known that different groups report crime at different rates. For example if you live in a community which has a deep seated fear of either authority in general or police specifically, you are less likely to report a crime.
B) If multiple crimes take place in a given event, only one is reported. In other words, if a person is killed during the commission of a robbery, the robbery isn't included in the stats.
C) Law enforcement funding is tied to specific crimes. For example, if a department can show a high level of drug activity, they become eligible for equipment and financial support which they otherwise wouldn't qualify for. Like everyone else, cops want new and better equipment, so they devote more of their time to drug enforcement. By tying support to specific crimes this way you can all but guarantee that certain crimes will be investigated more frequently.
D) Crime stats are known to manipulated by police administration in order to meet political pressure. For example, if a mayor of a college town is concerned that the town has a high number of rapes, charges may be filed as assault, battery, false imprisonment, etc in order to avoid the stigma of an unsafe campus environment, which could understandably negatively affect enrollment in that college.
E) There is no information about how the race of those arrested is determined. Do they self identify? Is it decided by the arresting officer? The processing clerk at the station? You can see how that would quickly become problematic.
Bottom line is that crime stats are a tool by which changes and trends in crime can be observed, but care should be taken not to accept them as gospel, there's a lot they don't account for.

 

[Mythos]

All I did is explain why the evidence you used to support your claim, doesn't. Did you fail to grasp the difference between arrests and convictions when you referred to those statistics, or did you simply parrot something someone else said without actually taking the time to understand it?

It’s logical to assume that very strong evidence exists to support the accusation of murder in the majority of cases where people are arrested for murder. A quick google indicates that as many as 10% of felons (including arrested murderers) were wrongfully accused. It seems entirely possible that most of those falsely accused individuals are black and I will agree with you that that is a serious problem. 10% of the prison population is a huge number of people. Still 10% is far from the majority. It seems my uneducated guess was on target. An FBI table listing numbers of arrests for violent crimes does come very close the actual numbers of people who did commit those crimes. Lets assume 10% of those falsely accused of murder are black and all other colors are never falsely accused of murder. The number of black offenders who actually did commit the murder they were arrested for is still very close to number of white people who were convicted of murder. So arrests do provide a good reflection of actual crime as I had assumed. That is a very good point you brought up that arrests do not equal convictions and I have furthered that point by making the observation that 10% or even 1% of wrongfully incarcerated felons is a tragically large number of people. I still stand by my initial claim that there are roughly as many murders committed by blacks as whites. The more angles I look at the issue from, the more that is confirmed.

My guess is that in your zeal to find something, anything with which to justify your world view it was the latter.

I’ll admit it takes some zeal to follow and respond to these threads but as far as finding information, it’s the top hits on google. You must have some problems in your class if your students do that.

I don't know how many people (black or white) are wrongly accused (or convicted) of murder or other crimes, that's why I don't make inaccurate inflammatory statements about such things.

All I do is use google doing my best to sepparate the wheat from the chaff. If you as an expert just want to sit back and take potshots at that information that's up to you. We're just talking and you don't have to list any data if you don't want. You will need to do that if you ever write your Wiki article though.

There are a host of ways in which a person can kill another person besides self defense and it not be classified as murder, and you know it. An obvious example is Darren Wilson. He killed Michael Brown and was never charged with a crime, much less convicted of murder. I've read the transcript of the grand jury proceedings, the fact that they failed to indicte was pathetic.

That’s pretty vague to a layperson and if you are not going to bother to support your opinion with facts, I'm not bothering to look it up after the effort I've made to state facts.

I guess “A host of ways” would be all justifiable homicide including self defense. For the purposes of this argument, I'm not buying that a large portion of black murder suspects are convicted of murder in spite of the murder actually being a justifiable homicide...if that's what you meant. If that's not what you meant, your mention of intentional killing not being intentional homicide seems a bit peripheral to this conversation. Not that it isn’t intriguing. We are only talking after all.

I think the big miss here is that those statistics which are broken down by race don't show anything about race at all. What they show is that people in certain income/opportunity/wealth categories are more violent.

I believe you are correct, fallenarch. Poverty is the problem, not race. Thank you for reminding me to make an apology for an earlier statement I made about the amount of black on black crime in the ghetto. Not all black people live in ghettos and those individuals generally are law abiding citizens. It’s unfair to characterize black people as criminals when a good number of black Americans are extremely unlikely to ever engage in crime. It is fair to assume that poor people of all colors are more prone to be criminals. Poverty is the issue that needs to be addressed. As for the murder this thread is regarding, I do not know if poverty or drug abuse played a part in what caused the murderer to commit that crime. It may have been a hate crime. It may have been inspired by all of the racial tension that exists right now. After all is said and done, a child is dead. I don't believe people often go out and kill other people because of the victim's race. The murder of Cannon Hinnant doesn't reflect a large number of murders that happen in this country in any way. I do not believe police officers murdering individuals who are taken into custody represents a large number of police killings either. Yet we have protests.

 

[Mr Brown]

It’s logical to assume that very strong evidence exists to support the accusation of murder in the majority of cases where people are arrested for murder. A quick google indicates that as many as 10% of felons (including arrested murderers) were wrongfully accused. It seems entirely possible that most of those falsely accused individuals are black and I will agree with you that that is a serious problem. 10% of the prison population is a huge number of people. Still 10% is far from the majority. It seems my uneducated guess was on target. An FBI table listing numbers of arrests for violent crimes does come very close the actual numbers of people who did commit those crimes. Lets assume 10% of those falsely accused of murder are black and all other colors are never falsely accused of murder. The number of black offenders who actually did commit the murder they were arrested for is still very close to number of white people who were convicted of murder. So arrests do provide a good reflection of actual crime as I had assumed. That is a very good point you brought up that arrests do not equal convictions and I have furthered that point by making the observation that 10% or even 1% of wrongfully incarcerated felons is a tragically large number of people. I still stand by my initial claim that there are roughly as many murders committed by blacks as whites. The more angles I look at the issue from, the more that is confirmed.

Your claim is still not supported by any evidence you have offered. Why would we assume that 10% of falsely accused of murder are black? More numbers from your nether regions. If black people are proportionally more often accused of murder, logic dictates that they are more likely to be falsely accused. Again, you can't know how many people, (black, white, or other) are convicted of murder from the sources you used. They don't contain that information.

I’ll admit it takes some zeal to follow and respond to these threads but as far as finding information, it’s the top hits on google. You must have some problems in your class if your students do that.

My students know that "top hits on google" is not an acceptable reference source. If they were to use they understand that they will likely fail that assignment.

All I do is use google doing my best to sepparate the wheat from the chaff. If you as an expert just want to sit back and take potshots at that information that's up to you. We're just talking and you don't have to list any data if you don't want. You will need to do that if you ever write your Wiki article though.

I'm not "taking potshots at that information", rather I'm explaining how your sources don't give the information you claim to have gotten from them. You can't just make sh!t up and attribute it to a source. That's not how research works.

That’s pretty vague to a layperson and if you are not going to bother to support your opinion with facts, I'm not bothering to look it up after the effort I've made to state facts.

A layperson can't understand that murder is a specific crime? Or that a person has to actually be convicted of a crime in order to be a criminal? One doesn't need a specialized education to understand those concepts, just a functional brain and a basic understanding of how the American justice system works.

I guess “A host of ways” would be all justifiable homicide including self defense. For the purposes of this argument, I'm not buying that a large portion of black murder suspects are convicted of murder in spite of the murder actually being a justifiable homicide...if that's what you meant. If that's not what you meant, your mention of intentional killing not being intentional homicide seems a bit peripheral to this conversation. Not that it isn’t intriguing. We are only talking after all.

I didn't make any such claim. Why would you jump to that conclusion?
Did OJ Simpson kill his wife and Ron Goldman? A criminal trial resulted in his being found not guilty of the murder charge, so he's not a murderer, but a subsequent civil trial found him responsible for both deaths. Surely you can understand the difference between those two things.

I believe you are correct, fallenarch. Poverty is the problem, not race. Thank you for reminding me to make an apology for an earlier statement I made about the amount of black on black crime in the ghetto. Not all black people live in ghettos and those individuals generally are law abiding citizens. It’s unfair to characterize black people as criminals when a good number of black Americans are extremely unlikely to ever engage in crime. It is fair to assume that poor people of all colors are more prone to be criminals. Poverty is the issue that needs to be addressed. As for the murder this thread is regarding, I do not know if poverty or drug abuse played a part in what caused the murderer to commit that crime. It may have been a hate crime. It may have been inspired by all of the racial tension that exists right now. After all is said and done, a child is dead. I don't believe people often go out and kill other people because of the victim's race. The murder of Cannon Hinnant doesn't reflect a large number of murders that happen in this country in any way. I do not believe police officers murdering individuals who are taken into custody represents a large number of police killings either. Yet we have protests.

Race and class are inextricably tied together in this country. There is a racial hierarchy in America which was specifically designed and deployed to keep one group on top at the expense of the others. Why do you think that the first instances of racial heritability transferring through the mother occurred in colonial America? Prior to that heritability was legally the sole responsibility of the father. Turns out that one owner can impregnate multiple slaves and create himself a labor force, free of any legal obligation.

 

[Mythos]

Your claim is still not supported by any evidence you have offered. Why would we assume that 10% of falsely accused of murder are black? More numbers from your nether regions. If black people are proportionally more often accused of murder, logic dictates that they are more likely to be falsely accused. Again, you can't know how many people, (black, white, or other) are convicted of murder from the sources you used. They don't contain that information.

10% was the maximum estimate of falsely accused incarcerated felons that I could find. The liklyhood is that the 10% of falsely accused incarcerated felons is split up among all colors of inmates who committed all felonies. I hypothetically gave it all to black murderers to show my point. There were lower estimates of falsely accused incarcerated felons like 1% and 5% but I chose to go with the highest figure in order to give maximum advantage to incarcerated black people who might have been falsely accused of murder.

Even after attributing the entire 10% of false felony incarcerations to black murderers, blacks still murder about the same number of people as white murderers. It's hypothetical, it isn't real. The black murderers were given maximum advantage and they still are in the same place they would have been without any advantage.

For a guy who has such a hard time thinking abstractly, you don't provide many facts.

My students know that "top hits on google" is not an acceptable reference source. If they were to use they understand that they will likely fail that assignment.

I'm glad google works so well for the rest of us. I'm still waiting for you to direct me some information that states that I am wrong.

I'm not "taking potshots at that information", rather I'm explaining how your sources don't give the information you claim to have gotten from them. You can't just make sh!t up and attribute it to a source. That's not how research works.

I'm not a researcher. You claim you are and you still haven't provided any data for us. That's what I'm waiting for if you're ever going to do it.

A layperson can't understand that murder is a specific crime? Or that a person has to actually be convicted of a crime in order to be a criminal? One doesn't need a specialized education to understand those concepts, just a functional brain and a basic understanding of how the American justice system works.

A layperson hears "murder" and they think a person killed someone else on purpose (any of you other laypeople out there disagree?). I'm pretty sure most legal professionals understand the word, "murder" in the same way. I will thank you again for pointing out that the FBI table is a record of arrests and not convictions but I have already shown that that does not matter. Even when given the maximum advantage of possibly being ALL felons wrongfully imprisoned, black murderers would still kill at least 90% as many as all white murderers.

I didn't make any such claim. Why would you jump to that conclusion?

I may seem to jump to conclusions or try to extrapolate on what you say because you offer no figures that explain your position. I give up trying to figure you out. Direct us to data that supports your contention that black people commit a lot less murders than white people do. You already said you do not know so if that is true, what is the point in me talking further about it with you? You've shed some light on the topic but I see no compelling information to dissuade me from the truth I already discovered. Thanks for the talk.

 

[Mythos]

As far as ambiguity of race, I don't know how that is determined by the FBI. If there are a significant number of black murderers who are reported as being something else, that would only improve the figures about murders committed by blacks. If there are a large number of people who are of undetermined race and the FBI lumps them all into the black catagory, that is a problem. Be awful nice if you could come up with some data on that, Mr Brown. Here's what I found, "unknown." It still looks dismal for black murderers.

How many murders are committed by people of undetermined race?

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2014.xls

 

[Mr Brown]

10% was the maximum estimate of falsely accused incarcerated felons that I could find. The liklyhood is that the 10% of falsely accused incarcerated felons is split up among all colors of inmates who committed all felonies. I hypothetically gave it all to black murderers to show my point. There were lower estimates of falsely accused incarcerated felons like 1% and 5% but I chose to go with the highest figure in order to give maximum advantage to incarcerated black people who might have been falsely accused of murder.

Your argument is based on a premise for which you offer no evidence, which isn't surprising, since there's no way to know how many people are falsely accused, or falsely convicted. As I've explained, repeatedly, those are not the same thing. Being accused of something, arrested for it, or charged with it are all different from bring convicted of it. I can continue to explain it to you, but I cannot understand it for you.

Even after attributing the entire 10% of false felony incarcerations to black murderers, blacks still murder about the same number of people as white murderers. It's hypothetical, it isn't real. The black murderers were given maximum advantage and they still are in the same place they would have been without any advantage.

See my previous response.

For a guy who has such a hard time thinking abstractly, you don't provide many facts.

I have no issue with abstract thinking, various types of theory featured heavily in my formal education. I do however know the difference between abstract thought and baseless claims of fact. You seem to think they are one and the same.

I'm glad google works so well for the rest of us. I'm still waiting for you to direct me some information that states that I am wrong.

I have directed you back to the very information you misquoted, with instructions on how to utilize it, and you still fail to grasp the concept.

I'm not a researcher. You claim you are and you still haven't provided any data for us. That's what I'm waiting for if you're ever going to do it.

All I've done is show you that you were wrong. I haven't made any claim to support. Not sure what you're waiting for?

A layperson hears "murder" and they think a person killed someone else on purpose (any of you other laypeople out there disagree?). I'm pretty sure most legal professionals understand the word, "murder" in the same way. I will thank you again for pointing out that the FBI table is a record of arrests and not convictions but I have already shown that that does not matter. Even when given the maximum advantage of possibly being ALL felons wrongfully imprisoned, black murderers would still kill at least 90% as many as all white murderers.

This is funny. I've used examples to show the difference, clear, logical examples, and yet you still refuse to accept that. Again, you cannot determine how many people committed any crimes, murder included, from charts that show numbers of arrests. I'm not sure how much more clear I can be.

I may seem to jump to conclusions or try to extrapolate on what you say because you offer no figures that explain your position. I give up trying to figure you out. Direct us to data that supports your contention that black people commit a lot less murders than white people do. You already said you do not know so if that is true, what is the point in me talking further about it with you? You've shed some light on the topic but I see no compelling information to dissuade me from the truth I already discovered. Thanks for the talk.

I didn't contend that black people commit a lot less murders than white people, you ascribed that contention to me. I don't need to make a counter claim in order for your position to be unsupported, all I have to do is show that the evidence you used to support your claim does not in fact support such a claim, which I did. And I was right. Which you admit. You then say it doesn't matter that you're wrong, you have discovered the truth, and I haven't dissuaded you. I can offer no information more compelling than fact, that you acknowledge it as accurate, whilst simultaneously choosing to ignore it says a lot about your grip on reality.

 

[Mr Brown]

As far as ambiguity of race, I don't know how that is determined by the FBI. If there are a significant number of black murderers who are reported as being something else, that would only improve the figures about murders committed by blacks. If there are a large number of people who are of undetermined race and the FBI lumps them all into the black catagory, that is a problem. Be awful nice if you could come up with some data on that, Mr Brown. Here's what I found, "unknown." It still looks dismal for black murderers.

How many murders are committed by people of undetermined race?

https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2014/crime-in-the-u.s.-2014/tables/expanded-homicide-data/expanded_homicide_data_table_6_murder_race_and_sex_of_vicitm_by_race_and_sex_of_offender_2014.xls

This is so funny to me. How can I offer evidence to support a claim that I never made?
I'll try and make it simple as you seem to be having difficulty keeping up: The UCR is a collection of reported arrests from jurisdictions around the country. Hence the "R" in the title. You used UCR data to support your claim that black people commit murder as much as white people. The UCR doesn't explain how the race of offender is attributed, which is one of it's known flaws. If the data is flawed, the conclusion is also flawed, and any claim based on that conclusion is therefore flawed.

 

[michael parris heuberger]

This is so funny to me. How can I offer evidence to support a claim that I never made?
I'll try and make it simple as you seem to be having difficulty keeping up: The UCR is a collection of reported arrests from jurisdictions around the country. Hence the "R" in the title. You used UCR data to support your claim that black people commit murder as much as white people. The UCR doesn't explain how the race of offender is attributed, which is one of it's known flaws. If the data is flawed, the conclusion is also flawed, and any claim based on that conclusion is therefore flawed.

Hi. I see so he can not prove that all of the murders were not all done by black people that is what you are saying? Than you can not prove that there were no aliiens at the first Thanksgiving dinner either. I think that all the murders that the chart said was done by Black or African American. Maybe most of them were done by Native Hawaiians or other Pacific Islanders.All of the stats on the charts may not be 100% correct but must be close. The Democrats use that tactic accuse the other side of what they are doing, and say that can not be proven. It is a very good way of avoiding the facts.

 

[Mr Brown]

Hi. I see so he can not prove that all of the murders were not all done by black people that is what you are saying? Than you can not prove that there were no aliiens at the first Thanksgiving dinner either. I think that all the murders that the chart said was done by Black or African American. Maybe most of them were done by Native Hawaiians or other Pacific Islanders.All of the stats on the charts may not be 100% correct but must be close. The Democrats use that tactic accuse the other side of what they are doing, and say that can not be proven. It is a very good way of avoiding the facts.

He claimed something and offered evidence in support of it. The evidence doesn't support it. That's what I pointed out. It doesn't avoid facts it illuminates them, but if you want to go down that road, the highest ranking Republican in the country continues to struggle with reality.
What you think happened is your opinion, if you want to offer evidence to support your opinion we can then discuss it. Absent that evidence, it's just a cool story. Bro.

 

[Mythos]

@michael parris heuberger I was going to react with a laugh about the Pacific Islanders quip but I was more impressed with the Democrats comment.

Nothing against Democrats. There's been a lot of very good democrats in my life.

@Mr Brown
If we accept that people who are arrested for murder often times are not convicted of that murder and do not usually become incarcerated for that murder, and that the FBI is frequently incapable of determining the race of murderers even though there is a category for undetermined race of people arrested for murder, and that there is probably a great deal more than 10% of black people wrongfully incarcerated for murder….








you might just be correct in spite of the fact you have no evidence for your opinion.





It is exclusively your personal opinion because you provide no evidence to support it whatsoever. It is an opinion that defies common sense. Any high school graduate who posses common sense can go back in this thread and follow my logic. You have presented a few statements of opinion or at best logic that was shown to not apply to this argument. Do you really think there is an appreciable percentage of black people arrested for or found guilty of murder who actually did not commit murder? Oh wait, the FBI doesn’t know what color they are.

I can see no place for this discussion to go other than personal attacks so I’m out of it. I’m here to talk bikes and I don’t want to get banned. Good night Mr Brown.

 

[Mythos]

I forgot, Mr Brown. You have no opinion on this topic. You only want to disprove my opinion which is supported by facts and by my own sound logic. You're in the clear. You have no dog in the fight. Nighty.

 

[Mr Brown]

You are working really hard not to understand the difference between making an unsupported claim (you) and pointing out that a claim is unsupported by the evidence offered (me). For what I hope is the final time:
I. Didn't. Make. Any. Claims.
Your. Logic. Is. Based. On. Flawed. Assumptions.

 

[michael parris heuberger]

You are working really hard not to understand the difference between making an unsupported claim (you) and pointing out that a claim is unsupported by the evidence offered (me). For what I hope is the final time:
I. Didn't. Make. Any. Claims.
Your. Logic. Is. Based. On. Flawed. Assumptions.

Hi Mr Brown. I know you have a better education than I. We did go different collage, yours taught you how to learn do look things up and teach.I when to trade school, 1 week class, 2 weeks shop The collage I went to [ the Army] taught me how to kill. May be I am missing the point, or seeing the hole thing wrong?May be you could expline it to me better.I would like to talk to you,but it seams that everyone likes to type to each other. My number is 508-496-3312.