Who goes first?

[BigmanZ]

(Rhythm @ Nov. 27 2006,12:37) From my personal experience, when traveling known roads by everyone in the pack its best to place the newbies up front.  The last thing I want is for the new rider sliding up under my rear causing a domino effect. Or trying to ride past his level of riding trying to keep up.
Do I alway practice this, no, but I should from a recent experience.  

+1
The inexperienced riders should allways be in the front of the group with the most experienced rider directly behind them.
1) This makes them visible to the entire group, making it easier for the leader to regulate the speed of the group to that of the new rider.
2) A new rider is not going to be able to react to a rider infront of them suddenly slowing down or changing lane position due to a road condition and/or equipement malfunction. If there are no bikes infront of the new rider, then they don't have to worry about this and if they do something rather 'newbish', those behind them will be able to react properly to avoid an accident.
3) While having riders infront might make the new rider more comfortable, there is a higher chance that the group might pull away, forcing the new rider to think they have to push their bike above what they are able to handle. While it is true that the group leader should keep an eye on the back rider, it is going to be 2nd nature to ride like they allways do and all it takes is one second for the new rider to think they need to gun it so they can catch up.
4) With the new riders up front none of the regulars have to worry about them trying to pass them (an example would be passing on the inside, hot roding, etc).

Just my .02

 

[Wag]

Cat3 and Copperone, you make some interesting comments about riding with newbies in the twisties. I had said it's no place to take a newb but your thoughts give me pause. Putting a newb between two experienced riders is a good idea along with the frequent stops and commentary.

From the sound of it, though, Da Kid is one of those new riders who is an exception to the rule. I've seen a few die-hard newbs get out there and do exceptionally well in two or three months. But I believe they are the exception. I don't believe you can do this with every newbie. Some people need a lot more coaching before they can go on the technical roads and expect to do reasonably well.

There are times when having a new rider in back is the best situation. They can watch an experienced rider and learn from his lines, body position, other observations. Other times, putting the new rider up front is good because then HE can be watched an coached at the next stop. Alternating positions in the pack is a good idea.

In a larger group, I suggest that at least one highly experienced rider take the lead. It gives the new riders a pace and a feeling of confidence that they don't get if they are the ones in the lead and feeling responsible for the group. One of the topics of discussion during the pre-ride lectures is spacing and should be explained clearly. That will go a long way to eliminating the potential for a pile up. An experienced rider as tail dragger is a must.

Great input from everyone! One of the things which makes h.org a great place to be.

Any more thoughts?

--Wag--

 

[scootergirl]

GREAT post! Thanks WAG!

 

[cosmo]

About the pre-ride lecture I would add something Kento-Moto once said during the first ride I did with him that always stuck with me: If your going to do something stupid, don't do it around me.

 

[BA BUSA]

Nice post Louis  

I started to read it and then said "how long is this thing" I marked it till I could
read it thoroughly

I think the most important thing is for the experienced riders to watch out for
the  

's and for them to learn from the more experienced riders.

ALL egos need to be checked at the door...have a fun and SAFE ride...help everybody
to become better riders

 

[Wrath]

This would make a great stickey for the top of the forum. What happened to the Guy who would post up the MSC reading on a weekly basis?

 

[BUSA SS]

As a new rider I like to stay at the back and watch everyone else.That way I can get a feel for they're riding style and try to adjust.I also like to keep some space between me and them.So if them or I go down there will be less chance of running into anybody.
I did run up on Rhythm kinda hard sunday and I apologize for that my friend.I also have a problem with curves to the right.I go really wide and I can't figure out why.All in all this past sundays ride with Rhythm, Thebbbusa and Dudewizer was a really good riding experience for me.I hope I didn't make you guys to nervous.

 

[Wag]

Rich and Charles, you've always been two of my mentors since I met you both. I've been riding for 25 years, off and on with a 12 year gap in there but you've both taught me a lot that I didn't know before.

Keep the wheels turnin'!

One thing I've learned is that most new riders are willing to learn as much as they can. The only thing I fear is that some squid gets their meathooks into them and teaches them to do a bunch of crazy crap they aren't ready to use.

Guys who are intelligent and ride well and safely are the best teachers and for the most part, I haven't really run into anyone who isn't willing to teach a new rider.

--Wag--

 

[thebbbusa]

(BUSA SS @ Nov. 28 2006,07:55) As a new rider I like to stay at the back and watch everyone else.That way I can get a feel for they're riding style and try to adjust.I also like to keep some space between me and them.So if them or I go down there will be less chance of running into anybody.
I did run up on Rhythm kinda hard sunday and I apologize for that my friend.I also have a problem with curves to the right.I go really wide and I can't figure out why.All in all this past sundays ride with Rhythm, Thebbbusa and Dudewizer was a really good riding experience for me.I hope I didn't make you guys to nervous.

It's all good my friend, it's all good.

The funny thing about the suggestions in this post, is you can never adhere to all circumstances in all situations. In our case our group spaced out a little during the twisties, with Rhythm and I going ahead at a faster pace, then we met up at the station. Then in the highway blast, again we led this time because we knew the road better.

The fact that our group was small made adjustments easier to manage. You really have to take in to consideration group size when incorporating rules or guidelines.

We had a great time with you too bro!

 

[Rhythm]

(thebbbusa @ Nov. 28 2006,09:03)

(BUSA SS @ Nov. 28 2006,07:55) As a new rider I like to stay at the back and watch everyone else.That way I can get a feel for they're riding style and try to adjust.I also like to keep some space between me and them.So if them or I go down there will be less chance of running into anybody.
I did run up on Rhythm kinda hard sunday and I apologize for that my friend.I also have a problem with curves to the right.I go really wide and I can't figure out why.All in all this past sundays ride with Rhythm, Thebbbusa and Dudewizer was a really good riding experience for me.I hope I didn't make you guys to nervous.

It's all good my friend, it's all good.

The funny thing about the suggestions in this post, is you can never adhere to all circumstances in all situations.  In our case our group spaced out a little during the twisties, with Rhythm and I going ahead at a faster pace, then we met up at the station.  Then in the highway blast, again we led this time because we knew the road better.

The fact that our group was small made adjustments easier to manage.  You really have to take in to consideration group size when incorporating rules or guidelines.

We had a great time with you too bro!  

+2 Hurry up back Sam.

 

[LABusa]

Very good read. The topic and the replies were very interesting. I know for myself that at the Meet-n-Greet this year my riding skills improved dramatically. It was the first chance I had to ride with a variety of skill levels.
The first half of the ride I was positioned near the rear to get a feel for the road and also to look at the other riders and how they approached turns. There are few twisty roads where I come from so this was all new to me. I gained a lot of confidence in my abilities and by the end I was riding towards the front and most importantly had an all around better feeling for my bike and how it reacts to my input.
The ride was very well planned and executed and best of all, fun for everyone.

 

[BusaCruise]

who goes up front depends on if you know them or not.... if I am not THAT familiar with a rider, or question their skillz...then THEY go up front. If I am with a group and known newbies are in the pack to join the ride...then the reverse is true.
That fact is that people have to take responsibilty for the situations they put themselves in...and if an unskilled rider is going to go too hot into a turn or loose control due to road conditions...then I want them up front where if they go down...they only take themselves out. Having somebody rear-end me and eliminate both riders from the equation could be alot worse.

Imagine if fasstoys1 had been in front and his friend knocked him down too....then who would have been making the 911 call and tending to them? A passer bye?
that would have been the only hope they had.

 

[MPH 200]

Good points

Our group varies from 5-20.

Most experienced riders in front, & always have a very experienced rider at the very back "Sweeper". At the back it is like a snake, it is faster if you let it. We always have a meeting & usually split into a new & experienced group.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING - IT IS NOT A RACE - DO NOT RIDE ABOVE YOUR ABILITY.

My Wife & I are currently teaching a new rider so we keep a slow smooth pace & keep him in the middle.

We work on individual techniques such as counter steering, entry speed etc. at every ride.

 

[Over_Easy]

After reading all the posts most of you said put the newbies up front which I strongly disagree with since this is THEE most important position when riding in a group.

Noobs likely don't know where they are always going, how to ride with direction and intent when a pack is following their lead, and will be concerned about all the experienced riders behind them feeling they have to go faster or perform better when they need to be concentrating on their own riding skills.

Most experienced riders in front, new riders behind them followed by a couple of experienced "Sweepers", as it was termed seems to be the most logical to me.

Isn't this what is suggested by MSF? I remember this was the format during the motorcycle testing as well for what it's worth.

 

[Rhythm]

(Over_Easy @ Nov. 28 2006,13:41) After reading all the posts most of you said put the newbies up front which I strongly disagree with since this is THEE most important position when riding in a group.

Noobies likely don't know where they are always going, how to ride with direction and intent when a pack is following their lead, and will be concerned about all the experienced riders behind them feeling they have to go faster or perform better when they need to be concentrating on their own riding skills.

Most experienced riders in front, new riders behind them followed by a couple of experienced "Sweepers", as it was termed seems to be the most logical to me.

Isn't this what is suggested by MSF?  I remember this was the format during the motorcycle testing as well for what it's worth.

This may be true but from my personal experience's I never seen a noobie take out a crew while leading a pack.
Take for example Track days. The novice rider is  given an extensive crash course test in class by a professional rider going over riding techniques and everything else you need to know when out on the track.  Followed by a  controlled run on a closed circiut course, free of debri and so forth.  
It scares me to read when people say it is a good ideal to let a noobie learn by following the person in front.

If they panic and misjudge their approaching speed while being fixiated on the person they're following guess who is going down with them ? Thats right, the person they're following.   I've seen it too  many times.
If I'm going to train someone in anything I would feel safe going  over a few basic techniques first, then see how well  they perform by observating from behind.  
Afterward I would give my input or a hi five based on their performance.
If they make a mistake in the learing process he or she will only injure themself and not both.

If you're a noobie rider, I'm either going to put some serious distant between us or you're riding up front.

 

[BA BUSA]

(Wag @ Nov. 28 2006,09:01) Rich and Charles, you've always been two of my mentors since I met you both.  I've been riding for 25 years, off and on with a 12 year gap in there but you've both taught me a lot that I didn't know before.  

Keep the wheels turnin'!

One thing I've learned is that most new riders are willing to learn as much as they can.  The only thing I fear is that some squid gets their meathooks into them and teaches them to do a bunch of crazy crap they aren't ready to use.

Guys who are intelligent and ride well and safely are the best teachers and for the most part, I haven't really run into anyone who isn't willing to teach a new rider.

--Wag--

Thanks Lou  

Lots of good input in this thread...one thing keeps coming up regarding the  

's being in front or in the back. Well if you only have two or three riders I want the noob in front of me so I can see if he is a safe rider...many new riders start out too fast for their own good on group rides, trying to show the more experienced riders that they can keep up. I am more impressed with a new rider that asks questions and listens to the answers than someone that is chompin at the bit to see how fast he can go on his bike.

In a ride of 10 or more riders I think the noobs should always start at the back and move up in the group if their abilities warrant it...I myself prefer to start dead last with a new group of riders especially if the ride is on a unfamiliar road to me. I will work my way up through the pack to a position that I am comfortable with...this gives me a chance to see which riders that I need to stay away from.

Usually group rides are going to be a all day thing...just have a plan as for your route, do a pre ride talk (do's + don'ts) then have some patience and work together for a fun and SAFE ride

 

[BiG-T]

It's always been my experience and opinion that the weakest link leads.

1.  It should be easier for an experienced rider to adjust to a novice up front opposed to vice verse.  (traffic lights and miscellaneous separations)

2.  A novice rider will lead where they are comfortable riding and may not travel the same route you would.  (We're riding over a bridge!?  Hell naw!)

3.  The probability of target fixation for the novice on the lead rider decreases because they are leading.  (we've seen experienced riders fixed on a target)

4.  You need to see/watch them more than they need to see/watch you.

If it's a group I definitely say put them between two experienced riders but I'd have them in the 2 spot.

 

[fasttoys1]

WAG, Tim had a favorable day. Thanks. Great topic. I'm to glad to see a refresher come out in a positive way to such a bad situation. We were going pretty slow, maybe too slow. I seem to do more stupid things going slow. Maybe I get complacent. I'm not suggesting "faster the better", with a little speed I get very focused & aware of the little things. Anyways goodstuff.

 

[manatrader]

Only do a couple of large group rides a year, even if very well organized they take all day to do anything, but those rides are for fun. Very large groups are best broken up with a leader and clean up rider to make sure everyone is together at locations on the route.

I ride all the time in groups of 6 or less, leader who ever they may be, most of the time it ends up being me, set the pace and your job to keep the group together. If you have a new rider its very important to let them know to ride there ride and you'll wait for them at every turn if they start to fall off the pace. No pressure last thing you want is for them to follow a better rider into a corner!

We too use the Chatterboxes great tool to communicate with the group stops, rocks, problems and just basic bs to pass the time.

Good reading gang!

 

[Lamb busa]

WOW!  This topic is near and dear to my heart (unfortunately).  When on group rides, Lamb always rides in the front of the pack, either in the front or easily within sight of the leader.  Lamb has been ridin the roads around his area for 20 yrs so familiarity is high.  Nobody has ever told Lamb that they will lead.  Nobody has ever asked  Lamb to follow and give input.  This doesn't mean he hasn't followed and given input, just that nobody has ever asked that!  Why this topic is close to my heart is that recently people have been going off the road while following Lamb, either crossing the yellow line, once only the great driving of the cager saved a harrowing crash.  Or running off the road into the dirt and grime.  Within the last year and 1/2 the count is up to double digits.  *voice of Yoda*Concerned am I about this!!  
When on group rides this summer, and there were alot, Lamb has been concentrating on the pace and not blitzing these all to familiar roads and getting out of sight.  This seems to lead to more problems than it has stopped.  Smooth is what is strived for, not popping the throttle out of the corner or jabbing the brakes on entry.  Just smooth, late apex, look throught the corner stuff and it has not worked.  It's only gotten worse, and I am getting concerned.
Perhaps my "problems" lie in the fact that twisties are why lamb rides on weekends.  Not alot of twisties involved and Lamb would rather stay home.  Some of my riding buddies have improved dramatically in the turns (devil dog) while having no incidents, thank you!!!!   Others, not members of this board, are experienced riders that have had problems.  None of them blame anybody but themselves but gunshy Lamb has become.  Thanks for listening (Reading). This board is kind of my therapist!!! If it's to far off topic........sorry!