Who is using engine oil analysis ?

[mountainmotor]

I have been into engine oil analysis for many years now . It's quite inexpensive and can be used as a tool to see how your engine is doing . Here's a recent example .

A friend with a Kawasaki , pipe and unknown mapping told me that the bike ran fine but burned alot of fuel . No big deal since e drives hard and puts up wet but ,

We sent a sample in and it came back with 8% fuel in it ! Whooa bad because it literally thinned to a low 7centistroke " thin 20wt from a starting lite 40wt " 13.6 cSt@ 100c " . Now some of the thinning was due to shear but this oil used is one of the very best available and a Kawasaki cannot shear it that bad . Anyway the 8% fuel was proof in the pudding .

Want to know what was wrong ? The mapping was way rich up top and fuel was getting by the rings .

I'd recommend to throw 12 bucks at your engine oil once in awhile to see hows it's doing . I use

www.butler-machinery.com

No affiliation

 

[Rosco]

Oil analysis can be a very useful tool but to get the full benefit takes a lot of interpretation knowledge.

It’s pretty much standard practice in aviation to send off oil and filters for spectrographic and particulate analysis.

The beauty of it is, because of all the different metals and materials that go into an engine, you can identify excessive wear at very specific locations without a strip down.

But to fully understand the results you require a lot of data, including but not limited to:

Base line fresh oil analysis
Complete metallurgical analysis of all components and surfaces exposed to the oil.
Known wear and oil contamination rates of all components exposed to the oil.
Regular testing and preservation of results for comparison.

I understand what you’re saying and can appreciate the potential benefits of an occasional oil test without the above data but your friend’s problem would have been solved by a trip to the dyno anyway.

Not trying to bag the idea, just my 2cents worth.


Cheers
Ross

 

[HeliBusa]

I will second what Rosco wrote. We use it on every oil change on our turbine helicopters (100 hours) and it is a wonderful tool IF you have the proper data inwhich to interpret the report they send back.

Now for the problem you mentioned, that would be a bit of an anomoly, we use the data to reliably predict how a component will hold up compared to other like components.

If you can get Tech Support from engineers at Suzuki in the way of metalurgy and such, it could be great,

If you can find non-aviation labs it might not be bad, otherwise I would think it is a bit expensive when compared to how much the components cost.

 

[pure_ego]

i put mine in the microwave and use it for popcorn after it's all worn out..

pretty good.. a little oily though.

good idea I think... i wouldnt' know what none of dem little numbers meant less you told me though.

 

[mountainmotor]

good idea I think... i wouldnt' know what none of dem little numbers meant less you told me though.

I can help you out there if you decide to test.

Each engine design has it own wear metal signature "metalurgy used" . Staying up on modern internal engine parts manufacturing processes is about all it takes and that part is one of my hobbies .

I've seen at one forum people jumping up and down giving kudo's to an engine oil used in 4.6 Fords when the reports started coming in without lead typically seen in both rod and main bearing wear .

He he , the 4.6 Ford and multiple other engines these days use a new aluminum bearing impregnated with Si .. so no lead willl be seen in analysis of these engines vs one's using traditional tri-metal babbit bearings .

Some engines are even using sintered copper/bronze cam lobes and I've seen some lab techs that have thought elevated levels of copper in these engines were due to a a thrust main bearing problem . These two engine reports in particular and the elevated copper were due to running too thick of an oil which did not pump well to the overhead cam engines " 40wts " . When these two engines were changed to th correct oil the copper levels were lowered signifigantly over the next two intervals then stabilized w/o apparent long term damage .

There's more to it but I need a bike ride today and time is limited

Anyway , I think many would be surprised at how hard some of  the 10w-40 dino's used in bikes are hit .



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[shenoyp]

 

[HeliBusa]

What mountainmotor said is exactly what I was getting at.

Mountainmotor, if you can author a data sheet to compare against the results of monitoring data, that would be very cool.

 

[grabntwist]

that has to be the coolest thing ever. I just ordered two kits. I will need some interpretation though once they return. .

 

[mountainmotor]

Here is a plan I have . We can watch my new engine break in through analyisis . I have base-line new oil samples of the near race worthy John Deere 0w-40 to run the motor in with

Moly 121
Phosphorus 1906
Zinc 1744
Magnesium 17
Calcium 4663
Silicon 11
VI @ 100C 14.92

Then will run one or two intervals using the Motul E-Tech 100 10w-40 synthetic since I have 8 quarts that needs used up

Moly 85
Phosphorus 1187
Zinc 1321
Magnesium 461
Calcium 2153
Silicon 12
VI @ 100C 13.6

Before switching the Maxima Synthetic . That one I'll send a new oil sample in with the used oil when it's time . I do have vrgin oil analysis of that oil but it was from two years ago , before it was reformulated .

The ZX-9R I have uses the Synergyn 15w-50 synthetic . I'll post that motors analysis's for the heck of it . Here's what that oil looks like on paper . Smells like Rocket Fuel though

Moly 74
Boron 111
Phosphorus 1143
Zinc 1290
Magnesium 17
Calcium 2860
Silicon 2
VI @ 100C 18.7

The Si is used as a anti-foam . As you can see it will vary in amount used . Some newer oils do not use it anylonger . There are newer defoaments that have been developed .

When looking at Si , analysis cannot tell if it's defoament or just plain dirt being ingested into the motor . This is but one of the many things analysis can tell you if interpited correctly . Like a clogged or loose fitting air filter . Under oiled KN or BMC type filter . An over oiled KN sure an fuel up the oil under certain conditions .

Anyway , I will post an analysis of the Suzuki factory fill at 150 miles then the 0w-40 up there at 400 miles and go from there . The miles are so close that I'll just wait and send in both the samples at the same time .

I've got to get this engine ran in a little so I can switch to synthetic because vacation is coming soon and that will be around 2500-3000 miles logged in a two week period .

I'm not an expert in the field but have a firm grasp on this .

Questions ... fire away

 

[mountainmotor]

Something to think about is the type additives being used today . For two forevers

zinc has been the primary anti-wear additive in formulated oils . The EPA has identified or accusedthe phosforus/zinc of poisoning the catalysts used in autos . The makers of these oils now are reducing the amounts of phos to a limit of .08percent which is around 750 parts per million for 2005 API SM designation .

Some of additives used as secondary anti-wear to work synergisticly are heat activated . These include moly and boron . My opinion is now more than ever get some heat into the motor before hitting it hard and to stay completely away from plain car oils in your bikes unless it's the new Extended Performance Mobil Synthetic . It has goodly amounts of phos/zinc stlll yet .

Just my opinion of API SM oils . Ooops , no puke smiley

Castrol GTX 10w-40 mineral oil - API SM

Boron - NONE
Magnesium 8 - Geeze
Calcium 1138
Phos 530
Zinc 661
Si 9
Vi @ 100c 14.1

Motul 3000 10w-40 mineral oil - bike specific . I beleive this oil to be the same as the Kawasaki branded oil .

Boron 91
Magnesium 377
Calcium 1086
Phos 972
Zinc 1045
Si 8
Vi @ 100c 13.9

The Motul has way more phos and zinc plus it uses overbased magnesium and boron as secondary anti-wear .

Just a post there to give an idea on whats going on with API SM using two oils as comparison .



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[Revlis]

Good Information Mtn. Motor...

Thanks for bringing it here.

 

[mountainmotor]

Here is the additive packs from the latest two Mobil 50wt synthetics . These are new , new , new formulas and take a look at the moly in the bike specific Mobil oil . MoDTC " oil soluable moly " is also an excellent anti-oxident . Again , the moly you hear that is bad for bike engine's was the grey disulphide from years ago . It's now used only in some differential lubes and sold by some additive suppliers for use in engine oil . Your not apt to run across the disulphide in a quart of oil that was known to fall out of suspension and cause sludging and more . These newer moly's " more than one type " are held in solution , not suspension .

Anyway , look at the moly in the bike specific oil . Previously only Motul used it in the E-tech 100 that I knew of . Now it certainly appears Mobil is using it . I'll need to see one more new oil analysis to confirm . next , look at the goodly amount of phos/zinc in the new Extended Performance 15w-50 Mobil Supersyn that replaced the red cap .This oil has 200-400 parts per million more of each depending which red cap formula it's compared to because Mobil was lowering it as time went along .

15w-50 EP oil

Moly 78
Boron 290
Calcium 2951
Magnesium 18
Phosforus 1230
Zinc 1381
VI @ 100c  18.0

Mobil V-Twin 20w-50

Moly 94
Boron 260
Calcium 2653
Magnesium 14
Phos 1687
Zinc 1829
VI @ 100c 19.8

The 10w-40's in each of the above will be near identical in additive packs . The VI at 40c and 100c will be about the only difference . The bike oil has a higher flash point and probably uses more ester and none of the AN's used in the EP oil as base correction fluids . The bike oil will be a bit tougher oil for all out racing but I sure like what I see in the new EP oil line up .

The 5w-30 and 10w-30 seems to be the best Mobil 30wt synthetics made to date . Mobil is a studly company IMO to give us such good oils at such low cost as compared to the competition .

 

[mountainmotor]

Sample of the factory fill taken on April 14 , 2005 with 113 miles on the bike .  Was drained with filter change and refilled with John Deer 0w-40 Synthetic Blend " made by Chevron " and ran till yesterday . Drained and hanged to synlube at 414 miles . I set the rings during the second oil interval .

Suzuki has a well built 10w-40 it appears . Much better additive pack than the current car engine 10w-40's from Walmart ,ect .

Iron 14
Chromium 0
Lead 3
Copper 5
Aluminum 10
Nickel 0
Silver 0


Those were the wear metals . Below is the additive pack

Boron 192
Magnesium 22
Calcium 1719
Phosphorus 1123
Zinc 1224
Silicone 22

Viscosity @ 100c 14.03 - or 212f

There was zero fuel present but I had trace amounts of water . .05 % . Odd since I always put my bikes up hot and never start them unless i'm going to ride .

At these low miles the silicon is hard to figure where it's coming from . Analysis cannot tell if it's from dirt ingestion or the anti-foam additive placed in the oil or the Si imprenated into some piston materials used today .

I suspect some is leaching from the small amounts of silicone sealant and from the casted pistons

A baseline new oil sample would help there but I do not intend to use this oil in the future .

When I drained the second oil I saw that the tranny is still making metal but much less than before . These particles can be seen by the eye but are too larger to run through the oil pump pick-up screen ....thankfully

They still can polish the bore , run between the cam lobe and bucket though so I highly recommend early drains of at least two before 600 miles if your the type to try for perfection

I think an analysis @ 600 miles on the factory fill might be pretty ugly compared to this one . No real damage would be done so no fears . The above about early oil changes comes from the King of overkill

After this engine gets run in , from the 4k-7k mark I expect wear metals to be about the same except with zero tin . I think that came from intial start when first ran .



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[mountainmotor]

It's looking like in a mineral oil , the Kawasaki 10w-40 has more anti-wear than Zuki's oil .

Up a few posts I wrote about how good the Mobil 15w-50 Extended performance will be . Check out the additive packs used in a couple bike specific oils and compare to the lower cost Mobil. A friend sent these to me yesterday .

Castrol 5w-40 Superbike oil

Moly 0
Boron 0
Magnesium 96
Calcium 2415
Phosphorus 955
Zinc 1061

Belray 0w-40

Moly 0
Boron 0
Magnesium 26
Calcium 2904
Phosphorus 990
Zinc 1096

Motorex 5w-40

Moly 0
Boron 624
Magnesium 20
Calcium 2663
Phosphorus 1005
Zinc 1120

I'm not wasting the effort to type in the new Repsol he sent me or any Amsoil I run across

Wait till you see the Maxima oils . Built very very well . Same for the Fuchs oils .

As you can see , oil is not just oil like some think and we have not entered base oils used into the topic yet . Big differences there also .

 

[mountainmotor]

In an effort to keep all these different oils and their additive packs in one thread here is the Silkolene Pro 4 15w-50, or whats left of it after 3800 miles .


Silicone 11 - defoament
Barium 0
Moly 158
Calcium 1917
Magnesium 315
Phosphorus 1186
Zinc 1257

 

[mountainmotor]

And a newer one sent to me by a friend a short time back .

Repsol 10w-50

Calcium 560
Magnesium 1040
Phosphorus 900
Zinc 1118

 

[bacharles]

Something to think about is the type additives being used today . For two forevers

zinc has been the primary anti-wear additive in formulated oils . The EPA has identified or accusedthe phosforus/zinc of poisoning the catalysts used in autos . The makers of these oils now are reducing the amounts of phos to a limit of .08percent which is around 750 parts per million for 2005 API SM designation .

Some of additives used as secondary anti-wear to work synergisticly are heat activated . These include moly and boron . My opinion is now more than ever get some heat into the motor before hitting it hard and to stay completely away from plain car oils in your bikes unless it's the new Extended Performance Mobil Synthetic . It has goodly amounts of phos/zinc stlll yet .

Just my opinion of API SM oils . Ooops , no puke smiley

.

Correct you are mountainmotor. I'm an Analyst at an Oil Refinery (ConocoPhillips), and ALL that you say is true. But there's something out there that is called a "naturally synthetic" oil. A joint venture between ConocoPhillips and Pennzoil about 8 or 9 years ago built a facility to formulate naturally synthetic base oils. One of the products is called "Hydroclear" and it's a naturally synthetic motor oil. It's naturally synthetic because there are NO additives to make it synthetic. A process called "Hydrocracking" is used to produce this product. What you get is an oil that is basically "clear." When I say clear, I mean clear in color. It looks just like baby oil and performs quite well. When I have my Suburban and Pick-up in for oil changes, that is what the dealership uses. I've definitely noticed a significant increase in gas mileage on my Suburban.