Working on plug and play datalogger, interested in your input.
- Thread starter smithabusa
- Start date
Yes you do fuel level as one of the analog inputs
Would just have to make it something like 0 to 100 instead of empty to full
Mythos
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The PCS D2000 video looks like it operates much like a Dyno Jet POD-300. I have the old LCD-200 and it operates and configures via touchscreen, too. Both the POD and the LCD will do a lower rez playback for instant review and data log to a memory card from which the full rez files can be pulled and transferred to a spreadsheets program to view data that went to the ECU from stock sensors. I don't recall what all the channels were but there are a total of 13 channels that get logged by my LCD-200. There are terminals on the DJ Ignition Module and PC5 to hook up a wires from aftermarket sensors so their data may be logged. I think it is two sensors on the PC5 and two on the IM. Both the POD and LCD are very compact which means they're hard to read on the fly but they do fit a motorcycle well. The LCD can display up to seven channels. I don't think the POD will show more than 4 at a time but if I recall you can flip between two screens, each showing four channels.
The cost of a POD is about $300. Of course, you need to have a PC5 which is another $300. You can't tune or log AFR without a Wideband2 (or Autotune which is less advanced and nearly the same price) so there's another $300. If you want the ignition data and other two external channels, an Ignition Module is another $300. $1200. I use a small chromebook velcroed to my tank for tuning. Then you have the large display and access to all functions of the DJ software plus you could view the full data files right there on the roadside if you want.
I'm not real familiar with the line of Woolich products but I know it was capable of logging data a few years back. Mighty damn expensive which is why I have @smithabusa 's ECU Editor box. I have yet to play with that but I'm really looking forward to it.
If you have a DJ system or Woolich package with software to self tune, you have pretty good logging capability already. I have a Bazzaz system on my busa and I don't think any data can be retrieved from it. Something like the PCS D200 or the Dash2 Pro would be right up my alley. For those with only ECU Editor and no fuel management system, they would need to manually change every cell in the fuel table based on viewing data files wouldn't they? That's a hell of a lot of work, I mean you do need to do several runs to top speed to tune your whole fuel table perfectly and that's thousands of changes by the time your done doing it manually. Something like DJ's Autotune or Bazzaz's Z-AFM or Woolich Autotune applies changes to the whole fuel table at the touch of a button--no errors possible, takes 2 seconds.
To me, this logger is for someone who uses a Bazzaz system or some other fuel management that doesn't log data. I don't see it being very useful for the guy who went out and got a flash but has no PC5 and WB2 to adjust his AFR. If he does have those, he has what he needs to log data already as soon as he gets a POD-300 to go with them. Otherwise a person can log data just to look at what the bike is doing. I share your proclivity for that but how data really becomes useful is for identifying and cleaning up the consistent 1/10 second glitches that Autotune can't seem to capture and correct. I haven't gotten into tuning enough yet to address this but I have viewed the data and I do see 1/10 second intervals or maybe 2 or 3 consecutive samples where the AFR went haywire even after the fuel trims table is pretty much zeroed out. I'd be cleaning those little messy spots up before I went to nitrous or turbo.
If you self tune with something that doesn't log data, one of these dashes would provide you with something you can read easily on the fly. It might cost you as much as a full DJ system not including the Smith plug and play harness. I wouldn't want to have the dash on the bike permanently for asthetic reasons. It would need to fit over the stock instruments and come off when tuning was done. I would still have my laptop velcroed to the tank while tuning so that would be quite a setup! As cool as those race dash data loggers are, I think something that logs as many channels, is more compact and is less expensive will be more useful to the average road tuner. We all carry a laptop anyway and to be honest, we don't look too long at gauges during a run. That is one reason data logs are so valuable.
Here's my 14. I forsee a similar setup on the busa once I get to tuning it. I just need something to log data with because Bazzaz won't do it.
The cost of a POD is about $300. Of course, you need to have a PC5 which is another $300. You can't tune or log AFR without a Wideband2 (or Autotune which is less advanced and nearly the same price) so there's another $300. If you want the ignition data and other two external channels, an Ignition Module is another $300. $1200. I use a small chromebook velcroed to my tank for tuning. Then you have the large display and access to all functions of the DJ software plus you could view the full data files right there on the roadside if you want.
I'm not real familiar with the line of Woolich products but I know it was capable of logging data a few years back. Mighty damn expensive which is why I have @smithabusa 's ECU Editor box. I have yet to play with that but I'm really looking forward to it.
If you have a DJ system or Woolich package with software to self tune, you have pretty good logging capability already. I have a Bazzaz system on my busa and I don't think any data can be retrieved from it. Something like the PCS D200 or the Dash2 Pro would be right up my alley. For those with only ECU Editor and no fuel management system, they would need to manually change every cell in the fuel table based on viewing data files wouldn't they? That's a hell of a lot of work, I mean you do need to do several runs to top speed to tune your whole fuel table perfectly and that's thousands of changes by the time your done doing it manually. Something like DJ's Autotune or Bazzaz's Z-AFM or Woolich Autotune applies changes to the whole fuel table at the touch of a button--no errors possible, takes 2 seconds.
To me, this logger is for someone who uses a Bazzaz system or some other fuel management that doesn't log data. I don't see it being very useful for the guy who went out and got a flash but has no PC5 and WB2 to adjust his AFR. If he does have those, he has what he needs to log data already as soon as he gets a POD-300 to go with them. Otherwise a person can log data just to look at what the bike is doing. I share your proclivity for that but how data really becomes useful is for identifying and cleaning up the consistent 1/10 second glitches that Autotune can't seem to capture and correct. I haven't gotten into tuning enough yet to address this but I have viewed the data and I do see 1/10 second intervals or maybe 2 or 3 consecutive samples where the AFR went haywire even after the fuel trims table is pretty much zeroed out. I'd be cleaning those little messy spots up before I went to nitrous or turbo.
If you self tune with something that doesn't log data, one of these dashes would provide you with something you can read easily on the fly. It might cost you as much as a full DJ system not including the Smith plug and play harness. I wouldn't want to have the dash on the bike permanently for asthetic reasons. It would need to fit over the stock instruments and come off when tuning was done. I would still have my laptop velcroed to the tank while tuning so that would be quite a setup! As cool as those race dash data loggers are, I think something that logs as many channels, is more compact and is less expensive will be more useful to the average road tuner. We all carry a laptop anyway and to be honest, we don't look too long at gauges during a run. That is one reason data logs are so valuable.
Here's my 14. I forsee a similar setup on the busa once I get to tuning it. I just need something to log data with because Bazzaz won't do it.
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Mythos
Registered
One more thing about tuning AFR, if you are using the affordable O2 sensor that common fuel management systems are equipped with, they are way too slow to tune "automatically." You need to do purposeful runs holding at one throttle position through the whole rev range and then cut throttle and grab the clutch or flip the Autotune switch off. On/off big/small throttle the way you normally ride does not give accurate data. Just saying, if you are going to use data to self tune, you also need to know how to produce accurate AFR data by opperating the bike in a way that makes it possible for the sensor to collect consistent data. Sorry if I'm going way adrift here.
I dunno. I use an LSU 4.2 which is a fairly standard sensor. It is what my Innovate, Woolich, and Maxx use. It is able to make real-time adjustments down the track in closed loop and hold my AFR where I want it on my standalone. I suppose the controller speed has more to do with the success at collecting data than the sensor itself. When doing on/off throttle there is acceleration enrichment and the opposite so you never want that data included in steady-state map tuning.
Mythos
Registered
@Dennis ,
I suppose the controller speed has more to do with the success at collecting data than the sensor itself.
I believe you are correct about that. The PC5 collects 10 samples/second. The Bazzaz collects only 8/second. I would need to look back at my writings on that but Bazzaz is slower = you need to do more runs to reduce trims to zero or negligible. The systems on cars take hundreds of samples/second so they keep AFR spot-on under all situations. The O2 sensor for both my PC5 and Bazzaz are very similar, they might even be the same Bosch sensor.
I find that with an already tuned map, Autotune stabilizes the AFR in about 2 or three seconds while cruising at a steady rpm. This is what I see on my digital AFR gauge. If I were to be drag racing, it would never keep a perfect 13.1 AFR. The map is already very close to perfect but the actual AFR is probably varying between 12.5 and 13.5 because of changes in temp, atmosphere and who knows what else. I imagine applying trims after every run at the track would help Autotune out quite a bit for that day. I don't do that on the street, LOL it's way too risky.
When doing on/off throttle there is acceleration enrichment and the opposite so you never want that data included in steady-state map tuning.
Exactomundo!! I see it happening a little even just opening and closing throttle a bit. That's where people might be mislead by data from the relatively affordable fuel management systems the average person uses on a bike. I hear there are some that will work as well as a car's system but those are BIG bucks. When you collect data, you must operate the bike as though it were on a race track--100% throttle staedy from start to finish. Then do that for 90%, 80%, 75%....each throttle position in your map. when peak rpm is reached at the TP you are tuning, immediately cut to 0% TP (strongly suggest grabbing the clutch if you are over 150 mph) or flip Autotune OFF. If you allow the throttle to close gradually, you are overwriting all your dangerous, hard to acquire highest speed trims with garbage. It appears the same technique is used on a dyno although I have never operated a dyno.
If you are collecting data to tune, freeze it at the point where you have finished making the bike do what you wanted it to do. The data is constantly updating and it will update with junk when you are doing something other than what you wanted to tune for. Of course, if you have data logs, you will see this but at that point, it's no longer possible to apply the good trims unless you do it manually.
This brings up another question about the proposed data logger with plug and play harness: How many samples/second does it collect?
I suppose the controller speed has more to do with the success at collecting data than the sensor itself.
I believe you are correct about that. The PC5 collects 10 samples/second. The Bazzaz collects only 8/second. I would need to look back at my writings on that but Bazzaz is slower = you need to do more runs to reduce trims to zero or negligible. The systems on cars take hundreds of samples/second so they keep AFR spot-on under all situations. The O2 sensor for both my PC5 and Bazzaz are very similar, they might even be the same Bosch sensor.
I find that with an already tuned map, Autotune stabilizes the AFR in about 2 or three seconds while cruising at a steady rpm. This is what I see on my digital AFR gauge. If I were to be drag racing, it would never keep a perfect 13.1 AFR. The map is already very close to perfect but the actual AFR is probably varying between 12.5 and 13.5 because of changes in temp, atmosphere and who knows what else. I imagine applying trims after every run at the track would help Autotune out quite a bit for that day. I don't do that on the street, LOL it's way too risky.
When doing on/off throttle there is acceleration enrichment and the opposite so you never want that data included in steady-state map tuning.
Exactomundo!! I see it happening a little even just opening and closing throttle a bit. That's where people might be mislead by data from the relatively affordable fuel management systems the average person uses on a bike. I hear there are some that will work as well as a car's system but those are BIG bucks. When you collect data, you must operate the bike as though it were on a race track--100% throttle staedy from start to finish. Then do that for 90%, 80%, 75%....each throttle position in your map. when peak rpm is reached at the TP you are tuning, immediately cut to 0% TP (strongly suggest grabbing the clutch if you are over 150 mph) or flip Autotune OFF. If you allow the throttle to close gradually, you are overwriting all your dangerous, hard to acquire highest speed trims with garbage. It appears the same technique is used on a dyno although I have never operated a dyno.
If you are collecting data to tune, freeze it at the point where you have finished making the bike do what you wanted it to do. The data is constantly updating and it will update with junk when you are doing something other than what you wanted to tune for. Of course, if you have data logs, you will see this but at that point, it's no longer possible to apply the good trims unless you do it manually.
This brings up another question about the proposed data logger with plug and play harness: How many samples/second does it collect?
I liked the AQ-1 as it could log up to 1000Hz. The innovate stuff is at 12Hz, the PCS looks to be 100Hz, as is the dash 2 pro from Race Technology.
I have some of the innovate stuff out for delivery right now to take a look at. Talking with the guys at PCS today about theirs as well.
I have some of the innovate stuff out for delivery right now to take a look at. Talking with the guys at PCS today about theirs as well.
@Mythos The Woolich logs at 50 Hz. My Maxx Race does 1000 Hz and doesn't combine all the data so I can auto tune a particular part of a pass, ride, or dyno pull. Highlight the timeframe, autotune, done. I did this the first day at the track and just let Lambda control manage the tune from there. Actually my base tune was close enough on the first pass that Lambda control was able to adjust and hit my Lambda target on the first pass down the track. I can make nitrous jet changes, inform the ECU of the new jet size and it takes care of the tuning for me. The only map tuning I've done since the first day is in the RPM range of the two-step and that was one adjustment.
Innovate ssi-4 came, working good with a quick mock up using my ecu connector setup
At moment have it setup for rpm, throttle, and both vacuum sensors
At moment have it setup for rpm, throttle, and both vacuum sensors
Some progress
I don't have any experience with the Zetronix, but yes I could wire an AQ1. Is this for gen1 or gen2?
It would be for a gen 1. It says the zt-2 can do afr, rpm, tps, and 2 user configurable 0-5v analog inputs. That should be enough for basic tuning on a gen 1 right? The aq1 by itself no harness is about the same price as the zt-2. Just trying to figure the most affordable way to be able to tune me and my dad's bike.
Zt2 requires a laptop connected though right?
They have a black box datalogger that can plug in to record w/o laptop
I could wire it up if you wanted to go that route
Do you have the conversion ratio for the intake pressure sensor. And how much would you charge for this harness
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