World Superbike

[bigoltool]

“Ducati announced to the press on Friday that unless new WSBK rules are ratified making the 1200cc twins legal for World Superbike ASAP they will not be racing the series next seasonâ€. ( the preceding excerpt was clipped from Superbike Planet 04/11/07)


OK so let me start by saying that I am not a Ducati Hater! Far from it!  In fact it came down to a Ducati ST4S or the Hayabusa for me when I bought a new bike for the first time in 20 years! The Busa won “nuff saidâ€! But this really agitates me to no end. Anyone who has followed WSBK competition for any length of time at all will recall the half A$$ed attempts by the FIM at achieving parity between the teams by playing with displacements and/or component changes allowed for a given engine configuration. Remember the switch to 750cc four cylinders (Honda RC 45 comes to mind) VS the 1000cc twins and then when that didn’t work out so well the Japanese said “if you can’t beat em join em†and that gave us the RC51, TL1000R etc. Now Ducati has come out with what appears to be a truly stellar street Motorcycle (I’d love to own one!) in the 1098 that really isn’t legal to race in any major series on the planet because of its Displacement. Ducati built this motorcycle with one thing in mind, to force the FIM to let them race it in international competition! They have been lobbying hard to not just race it but bore it out to 1200cc! The logic stated is that it is more cost effective for them to make a bigger motor that they didn’t have to lean on so hard to make it “competitive†with the 1000cc four cylinder machines of the Japanese armada. As I am typing this Troy Bayliss has just  re-set the lap record at Valencia on his archaic old 999cc twin! So when the FIM inevitably buckles like an empty can of Old Milwaukee on John Belushi’s forehead and allows this to happen their will be another avalanche of new motorcycles tailor made to exploit the new rules to the fullest and we will be right back to square one. Ducati has won the <s>Ducati Cup </s>World Superbike Championship more times than I can count and have the fastest guy and the fastest bike already; now they want a 20% displacement increase? I think Federico Minoli has been watching re-runs of Pinks or something! Cause that just doesn’t fly for me!

I’m done!

 

[cosmo]

Not that I disagree with your rant but why should we care about the politics of racing? IMHO, as consumers our primary interest is an ever-improving product.....and thats exactly what the industry has given us for decades. If Detroit used the same model (for Nascar) the Japanese probably couldn't give they're cars away here.

 

[DaCol.]

You might not know, but a bike that is two years out of production (as in the 999 next year) can not be raced in the SBK. So, if the 1098 isn't allowed, then Ducati has NO bikes that qualify to race. Unless of course they change the 1098 down stroked to 1000 and made 500 street copies. Which I doubt anyone would do  

 

[WWJD]

Ducati = WAAAAAA! Step up or step off, whiney duc makers. Maybe they should pay attention to what the rest of the planet is doing... maybe make a "1000" or maybe a "600". Join EARTH already. Morons.

 

[busa46]

I liked the s4r too the bike is amazing and the new 1098 is great but I don't think they should get bigger engine rules just cuz they don't play by the rules. Its like the harleys in drag racing they take a v rod and get to have way more cc than any jap bike and then win the title and say the v rod is the fastest bike out there. I think you can buy the championship if you have enough money its sad.

 

[hbr]

The Pirelli issue passed, this one will too..........bit of bellyachin' and maybe a year of "non-factory" Ducs but WSB and Ducati need each other.

 

[cosmo]

(DaCol. @ Apr. 13 2007,19:20) You might not know, but a bike that is two years out of production (as in the 999 next year) can not be raced in the SBK. So, if the 1098 isn't allowed, then Ducati has NO bikes that qualify to race. Unless of course they change the 1098 down stroked to 1000 and made 500 street copies. Which I doubt anyone would do  

And as a corporation Ducati is 0.00001% the size of Honda so honestly, who has the advantage when R&D/racing budgets are factored in?

 

[Revvv]

Duc can drop out as far as I'm concerned.

 

[gtrpimp76]

(Revvv @ Apr. 14 2007,15:48) Duc can drop out as far as I'm concerned.

+1!!!!

They had to act like crybabies w/AMA Superbike series and drop out. I don't give a rat's a$$ if they quit WSBK next year either. They don't need the displacement increase. Just look at Troy Bayliss minus his freshly amputated pinky finger and crushed testicles on his archaic 999. He consistently sets the best lap times and is still very competitive come race day.

I just don't get it. They make one of the world's most exotic, torque-wrenching and high trap speed machines on the planet. they're pretty competitive on all fronts of the major sactioning bodies sans AMA racing. And they want to blackmail AMA and WSBK just to get their way. I say let them cry and leave the playground with their toys. Each series will prolly provide for more interesting racing anyways.

With that said, I agree with the majority of you that I wouldn't mind having a 1098 in my garage too.

 

[Cykill]

they new the displacement regulations when they made the 1098, so how can you feel bad for them? if they wanted to compete they would have made a new/revised 999 that would compete. ducs are reminding me of Hardley Ablesons. if ya can't make your Vtwin compete, time to move on to something new!

 

[bigoltool]

It isn't just Ducati pushing for this either. KTM has been quietly sitting in the background working on their RC8 Superbike, which also looks like a totally cool ride but it also is rumored to be somewhere substantially (1150cc) north of 1000cc! KTM is just waiting for Ducati to take all the heat and then they will surely race it when the rules favor them. The one thing I want to happen is to have a fair set of rules that everyone can play with and not ones that promote activities such as this to exploit (or create in this case) obscure loopholes in the regulations that favor them. Ducati has a 4 cylinder 1 liter street bike(sort of) in the Desmosedicci. Its a bit of a stretch but if they built 500 of them they could even race that! Aprillia is ready to unleash a firebreather of a V4 as well. There will be no shortage of cool new hardware coming out in the not too distant future. There just needs to be one set of rules to race them under for everybody to keep it competitive.

Aprilia v4
RC8

 

[05 Busa LE]

The laws of physics do not allow a twin to make the same horsepower as an inline motor of the same displacement. So when comparing twins to inlines, the 1000 cc limit is arbitrary and, in fact, heavily favors the in-line motors when it comes to horsepower.

And the only reason that Ducati remains competitive--despite being down on horsepower--is that they have to make up the speed and lap times in other ways.

No way will the AMA and WSBK allow Ducati to be absent for any period of time. In my opinion, it's bad for the sport.

 

[05 Busa LE]

(bigoltool @ Apr. 14 2007,10:51) Ducati has a 4 cylinder 1 liter street bike(sort of) in the Desmosedicci. Its a bit of a stretch but if they built 500 of them they could even race that!

A bit of a stretch is right ... the DesmoRR would obliterate everything in the AMA and WSBK series, because it's based on the GP6.

But maybe you're onto something ... is it possible that the RR will be the next bike in the AMA and WSBK series? With over 200 hp in the street version, imagine what it would do with factory support!

 

[bigoltool]

(05 Busa LE @ Apr. 14 2007,08:03)

(bigoltool @ Apr. 14 2007,10:51) Ducati has a 4 cylinder 1 liter street bike(sort of) in the Desmosedicci. Its a bit of a stretch but if they built 500 of them they could even race that!

A bit of a stretch is right ... the DesmoRR would obliterate everything in the AMA and WSBK series, because it's based on the GP6.

But maybe you're onto something ... is it possible that the RR will be the next bike in the AMA and WSBK series? With over 200 hp in the street version, imagine what it would do with factory support!

Maybe not obliterate, but it would be interesting! If the numbers are to be believed the Superbikes are now making power numbers well north of 220 HP. The Desmosedicci was widely "speculated" to be the most powerful of all the 990cc MotoGP engines running at the time of their demise at somewhere over 250hp. This thing would in theory have to live with the very same WSBK regulations that all of the other 4 cylinders have to live with now. Meaning that some of it's trick MotoGP parts may not apply and it would have to run the spec Pirelli tires everyone else has. At some tracks they co-habitate the WSBK lap times are not far off the front line MotoGP times. It may not be as far fetched as you might imagine.

 

[labs 4 sale]

(WWJD @ Apr. 13 2007,19:24) Ducati = WAAAAAA!    Step up or step off, whiney duc makers.  Maybe they should pay attention to what the rest of the planet is doing... maybe make a "1000" or maybe a "600".  Join EARTH already.  Morons.

 

[species0113]

why dont they dyno every bike before a race and the top 5 or 10 after a race. if your over a set HP before the race you dont race. If your over the set HP after the race, no points for that race, your disqualified. any reasons why this wont work?

 

[proud dad]

So let them leave,rules are rules the same for every make.

 

[Juggler]

(05 Busa LE @ Apr. 14 2007,07:52) The laws of physics do not allow a twin to make the same horsepower as an inline motor of the same displacement.  So when comparing twins to inlines, the 1000 cc limit is arbitrary and, in fact, heavily favors the in-line motors when it comes to horsepower.

And the only reason that Ducati remains competitive--despite being down on horsepower--is that they have to make up the speed and lap times in other ways.  

No way will the AMA and WSBK allow Ducati to be absent for any period of time.  In my opinion, it's bad for the sport.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but why is it that a twin with the same displacement can't make the same HP?

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I really don't know. Is there some magic correction factor that could be used to make a twin competitive with an I4? Is 1000:1098 the magic ratio?

I'm not an engine dude, so forgive the ignorance?

 

[DaCol.]

(Juggler @ Apr. 14 2007,13:41)

(05 Busa LE @ Apr. 14 2007,07:52) The laws of physics do not allow a twin to make the same horsepower as an inline motor of the same displacement.  So when comparing twins to inlines, the 1000 cc limit is arbitrary and, in fact, heavily favors the in-line motors when it comes to horsepower.

And the only reason that Ducati remains competitive--despite being down on horsepower--is that they have to make up the speed and lap times in other ways.  

No way will the AMA and WSBK allow Ducati to be absent for any period of time.  In my opinion, it's bad for the sport.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but why is it that a twin with the same displacement can't make the same HP?

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I really don't know.  Is there some magic correction factor that could be used to make a twin competitive with an I4?  Is 1000:1098 the magic ratio?

I'm not an engine dude, so forgive the ignorance?

In a down and dirty explanation, it's piston speed

. A twin can't produce the piston speed for the same displacement that a 4 cyl of the same displacement can. Mainly it's because it is not capable of generating the required piston speed in a longer stroke. There is alot more involved including fuel detonation, spark temps and valve degregation. But leave it that the four cyl can rev higher with less individual piston speed than a twin would be required to do for the same power output. That's how 4's get their high HP, with High Revs ! Same reason the twin out torques the 4 down low, piston speed VS volume of available power produced. If you watch F1 auto racing, their V-8 this year had to rev to 22,000 for the same HP as last year, but for the race they calm them down to ONLY 19,000  

This is basic, but I hope you get the idea !  

 

[bigoltool]

(DaCol. @ Apr. 14 2007,14:01)

(Juggler @ Apr. 14 2007,13:41)

(05 Busa LE @ Apr. 14 2007,07:52) The laws of physics do not allow a twin to make the same horsepower as an inline motor of the same displacement. So when comparing twins to inlines, the 1000 cc limit is arbitrary and, in fact, heavily favors the in-line motors when it comes to horsepower.

And the only reason that Ducati remains competitive--despite being down on horsepower--is that they have to make up the speed and lap times in other ways.

No way will the AMA and WSBK allow Ducati to be absent for any period of time. In my opinion, it's bad for the sport.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but why is it that a twin with the same displacement can't make the same HP?

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I really don't know. Is there some magic correction factor that could be used to make a twin competitive with an I4? Is 1000:1098 the magic ratio?

I'm not an engine dude, so forgive the ignorance?

In a down and dirty explanation, it's piston speed

. A twin can't produce the piston speed for the same displacement that a 4 cyl of the same displacement can. Mainly it's because it is not capable of generating the required piston speed in a longer stroke. There is alot more involved including fuel detonation, spark temps and valve degregation. But leave it that the four cyl can rev higher with less individual piston speed than a twin would be required to do for the same power output. That's how 4's get their high HP, with High Revs ! Same reason the twin out torques the 4 down low, piston speed VS volume of available power produced. If you watch F1 auto racing, their V-8 this year had to rev to 22,000 for the same HP as last year, but for the race they calm them down to ONLY 19,000

This is basic, but I hope you get the idea !

I always thought that valve area was a big part of it as well. In theory a 4 cylinder has more potential valve/port area than a twin. Giving superior volumetric efficiency. Yamaha took this to the extreme with 5 valves per cylinder but have now abandoned it in favor of a more conventional combustion chamber. A four cylinder would theoretically have a much shorter flame front as well. Of course all of this theoretical...