ZX-12R/Busa MCN RESULT
- Thread starter OB_GASABUSA
- Start date
I agree with MagicBus and Todd. KMC will be the one in the price war hot seat (after they take my money). Everyone here knows that top speed and quarter mile times don't mean anything to me. Obviously, fit and finish ain't too important to me either, after all, I do ride a 7R (go figure).
Everyone also knows that I think the Busa is an engineering marvel and a work of art that set a benchmark that might be unatainable by another manufacturer, for quite some time. My reasons for getting a 12R are still unchanged and I still feel that I'll be happy with it (if it ever gets here).
... but, I AIN'T NORMAL, customer, that is.
Call them "numbers", "specs" or "stats", it boils down to bragging rights. Bragging rights SELLS bikes! Though 99%+ of the buyers will never come anywhere close to the "published" results, it does play a major part (to both the seller and the buyer) in the decession process.
What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday. This still holds true today. Unless KMC does an amazing "pull the rabbit out of the hat" trick, prices will have to drop. When I bought my 7R in Dec. of '96, it was cutting edge. I'm not sure, but I think the GSXR 750 came out with fuel injection that year. Suddenly, MSRP drops from $9200 to $8999. Of course, this is AFTER I bought my 7R. I see similar things on the horizon for the 12R (and my money).
Everyone also knows that I think the Busa is an engineering marvel and a work of art that set a benchmark that might be unatainable by another manufacturer, for quite some time. My reasons for getting a 12R are still unchanged and I still feel that I'll be happy with it (if it ever gets here).
... but, I AIN'T NORMAL, customer, that is.
Call them "numbers", "specs" or "stats", it boils down to bragging rights. Bragging rights SELLS bikes! Though 99%+ of the buyers will never come anywhere close to the "published" results, it does play a major part (to both the seller and the buyer) in the decession process.
What wins on Sunday, sells on Monday. This still holds true today. Unless KMC does an amazing "pull the rabbit out of the hat" trick, prices will have to drop. When I bought my 7R in Dec. of '96, it was cutting edge. I'm not sure, but I think the GSXR 750 came out with fuel injection that year. Suddenly, MSRP drops from $9200 to $8999. Of course, this is AFTER I bought my 7R. I see similar things on the horizon for the 12R (and my money).
OB_GSXRTURBO1
Registered
what the....?
G
Guest
No need to complain so much about a single 1/4 mile run in a single test. DC (and hopefully the article) explained the reason for the lousy time and most will notice the trap speed and understand anyway. This isn't the first time this has happened. The first test I read was the 99' Busa test in Motorcyclist where they had similiar results and the Busa was a tenth or so slower than the Blackbird time they had listed from a previous test. The trap speed was of course higher. What was worse is that Motorcylist didn't explain the reason for the problem until a later issue when they announced the Busa as bike of the year. Even then they only said that with a fresh clutch the bike would run 9's but they never retested and the low 10 sec 1/4 mile time still stands today. It also stuck out like a sore thumb and was the worst run I remember seeing in print all year. In this MCN test the 12 didn't break into the 9's either and had a 1 mph better trap speed than the Busa to boot. A perfect run on this 12 would probably be a little better than a perfect run on this Busa - but not by much. This test does demonstrate expected results if the Busa isn't ready mechanically and has a bad rear tire or worn clutch. The 12 most likey was not in top shape either. The testing party should have the good sense to have at least one set of extra tires ready when performing both top speed and quarter mile testing back to back. If I had to do both on a single set of OEM tires I must admit I would want the new rubber for the top speed test too. Maybe it's a Brit thing to run the Busa down to the rims? Remember Total Carnage?!
[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 23 March 2000).]
[This message has been edited by Todd (edited 23 March 2000).]
RE: ZX12 vs Hayabusa shootout in Motorcycle News. MCN is obviously feeling a bit embarssed with the result of this test, having hyped the Kawasaki since the design was announced! NOW MCN is telling us that the ZX must have been restricted in some way (because it produces similar power to the Hayabusa, but THEY think it LOOKS faster!) (The Hayabusa doesn't look the way it does for no reason!) At the same time, the editor is telling us that speed restrictions are good for us! Maybe if the likes of MCN didn't rave about untested bikes "breaking the 200MPH barrier" and accepting these claims as fact, then the politicians would keep off our backs. My £1.30 stays in my pocket from now on!!
OB_c.dolan
Registered
MCN: M.ore C.rap than N.ews
OB_sonnybusa
Registered
WHO REALLY CARES HOW THEY CONPARE STOCK BIKES I WANT TO KNOW WHO KEEPS THEM STOCK NOBODY DOES I HAVE SEEN THREE Z-12 ALL DIFFERENT EXH. & WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE THEY HAVE DONE. I HAVE SEEN A LOT OF BUSA'S & MOST ARE NOT STOCK. AIR BOX MOD & EXH. & TURBO'S & BIGGER ENGIENS IT MATTER WHO GETS THERE FRIST NO MATTER WHAT YOU RACE TRACK OR STREET IT THE FRIST ONE ACROSS THE FINISH LINE THATS MY 2 CENTS WORTH
Hope you've got your flame-suit on, DC.
Like you said:
Arrogance hardly covers it.
Since when do numbers relate to quality?
How many people on this planet watch Jerry Springer?
BTW, your statement may be true if only because there's hardly any bike mag weeklies left around the globe!
Like you said:
Arrogance hardly covers it.
Since when do numbers relate to quality?
How many people on this planet watch Jerry Springer?
BTW, your statement may be true if only because there's hardly any bike mag weeklies left around the globe!
OB_Fast_Eddie
Registered
MCN is one of, if not, the last "weekly" rag out, so your claims about having the highest weekly circulation are pointless in this forum. Compare your monthly circulation with that of any major American motorcycle publication, then mention that in your hype. It's not hard to achieve the highest weekly circulation if you're the only one doing weekly pub's.
As far as your magazine is concerned, never before have I read any magazine so biased towards Kawasaki. The article published on the website dated 10 March 2000 clearly shows this bias.
I quote: "So, on to the second part of the question - the one everyone wants an answer to. My gut feeling is that the new bike will be faster. Would Kawasaki have released it if it wasn't? But that's only my feeling, and we just can't give you a definitive outcome right now."
My gut feeling?? Now that's real scientific and unbiased writing there DC.
I quote again: "We'll do that when the first ZX-12R's come to Britain at the end of this month. Only then will we really know whether the Hayabusa is now the world's second fastest production motorcycle."
The writer is clearly showing his bias against Suzuki. I agree with the other poster here in that the only good thing about MCN involves a flush...thank god we don't have it cluttering up our newstand shelves here in the U.S.
I have been a Kawasaki fan for over twenty years now. I made the switch to Suzuki a few years ago with my purchase of a '95 RF900 and again about two weeks ago with the purchase of a 2000 'Busa.
The major factor in my decision to switch has nothing to do with bragging rights, faster 1/4's, top speed, or any of that nonsense, because quite frankly, very few of us will actually ever hit the limits of performance with either bike.
My major factor has always been that of engineering, quality and price. I have been increasingly dissapointed year after year with Kawasaki purchases and their lessening effort towards a quality engineered product. In more generic terms, "More bang for the buck".
Suzuki has managed to raise the bar so high with the release of the 'Busa, as far as quality, engineering and price are concerned, that no manufacturer might top it in those regards...ever.
As a "real world" rider, that's what comes first in my book. How the bike is built, its quality, its finish, its price, it's comfort level, etc. The ZX12R as it sits now isn't even in the same league as the 'Busa.
Dollar for dollar, a rider purchasing a 'Busa over a ZX12 is getting much more of a bike for his/her dollar..again, more bang for the buck if you're having a problem following along. Plus, I can ride the 'Busa for longer than 2 hours without pain and discomfort!!
I know the emphasis with your rag tests is that of performance, and that's fine if it keeps your rag in business. But it may be a nice addition, and service to your loyal readers, to include in your overall tests a mention of these factors.
As far as your test is concerned, you said it yourself that the Honda and the Kawasaki kept fresh tires longer than the 'Busa. That may be true, and if it were, then the 1/4's should have been done first instead of the four two-mile high speed runs being done first.
I feel that alone renders your 1/4 mile testing as inaccurate and illegitimate.
I'll give credit where credit is due if the ZX does out perform the 'Busa. But to sit here and tell us that even a Blackbird out perform a 'Busa in the 1/4 is plain and utter bullcrap. We all know differently.
The bottom line is pretty simple, both bikes are in different classes. The 'Busa being a Sport Tourer and the ZX being a Super Sport. Anytime a bike in a Sport Tourer class keeps up with or even outperforms a comparably sized bike in the Super Sport class seems like a slap in the face of the Super Sport bike regardless!!
I, too, will wait for the American magazines to publish a more reliable unbiased test of both or all three bikes in a shootout. Not until then we we really know the truth about the performance results.
[This message has been edited by Fast_Eddie (edited 19 April 2000).]
As far as your magazine is concerned, never before have I read any magazine so biased towards Kawasaki. The article published on the website dated 10 March 2000 clearly shows this bias.
I quote: "So, on to the second part of the question - the one everyone wants an answer to. My gut feeling is that the new bike will be faster. Would Kawasaki have released it if it wasn't? But that's only my feeling, and we just can't give you a definitive outcome right now."
My gut feeling?? Now that's real scientific and unbiased writing there DC.
I quote again: "We'll do that when the first ZX-12R's come to Britain at the end of this month. Only then will we really know whether the Hayabusa is now the world's second fastest production motorcycle."
The writer is clearly showing his bias against Suzuki. I agree with the other poster here in that the only good thing about MCN involves a flush...thank god we don't have it cluttering up our newstand shelves here in the U.S.
I have been a Kawasaki fan for over twenty years now. I made the switch to Suzuki a few years ago with my purchase of a '95 RF900 and again about two weeks ago with the purchase of a 2000 'Busa.
The major factor in my decision to switch has nothing to do with bragging rights, faster 1/4's, top speed, or any of that nonsense, because quite frankly, very few of us will actually ever hit the limits of performance with either bike.
My major factor has always been that of engineering, quality and price. I have been increasingly dissapointed year after year with Kawasaki purchases and their lessening effort towards a quality engineered product. In more generic terms, "More bang for the buck".
Suzuki has managed to raise the bar so high with the release of the 'Busa, as far as quality, engineering and price are concerned, that no manufacturer might top it in those regards...ever.
As a "real world" rider, that's what comes first in my book. How the bike is built, its quality, its finish, its price, it's comfort level, etc. The ZX12R as it sits now isn't even in the same league as the 'Busa.
Dollar for dollar, a rider purchasing a 'Busa over a ZX12 is getting much more of a bike for his/her dollar..again, more bang for the buck if you're having a problem following along. Plus, I can ride the 'Busa for longer than 2 hours without pain and discomfort!!
I know the emphasis with your rag tests is that of performance, and that's fine if it keeps your rag in business. But it may be a nice addition, and service to your loyal readers, to include in your overall tests a mention of these factors.
As far as your test is concerned, you said it yourself that the Honda and the Kawasaki kept fresh tires longer than the 'Busa. That may be true, and if it were, then the 1/4's should have been done first instead of the four two-mile high speed runs being done first.
I feel that alone renders your 1/4 mile testing as inaccurate and illegitimate.
I'll give credit where credit is due if the ZX does out perform the 'Busa. But to sit here and tell us that even a Blackbird out perform a 'Busa in the 1/4 is plain and utter bullcrap. We all know differently.
The bottom line is pretty simple, both bikes are in different classes. The 'Busa being a Sport Tourer and the ZX being a Super Sport. Anytime a bike in a Sport Tourer class keeps up with or even outperforms a comparably sized bike in the Super Sport class seems like a slap in the face of the Super Sport bike regardless!!
I, too, will wait for the American magazines to publish a more reliable unbiased test of both or all three bikes in a shootout. Not until then we we really know the truth about the performance results.
[This message has been edited by Fast_Eddie (edited 19 April 2000).]
OB_DangerMouse
Registered
Too true Fast Eddie.
DC while MCN publish moronic statements like the "ZX12 is obviously as aerodynamic as the Busa" (original top speed shoot out) how can you expect credibility?
One bike looks conventional one looks - well very different, I know what my money is on when it comes to aerodynamics, do you think the Busa looks like that for fun? Did MCN do repeated roll down tests from high speeds with the same rider same tyres and rolling weight to substantiate MCNs view of the bikes being similar aerodynamically? How was the ZX12 "quicker in real world conditions"? Do we use all the available ground clearance of the Busa in the real world? Or use it's full power potential? How is the Kwacker quicker on the road?
Isn't the "real world" quicker bike the one that isn't unstable at high speeds? Riders are always quicker on bikes they can trust. In the "real world" won't the customer notice the extra £1,100 price of the Kawasaki? In the "real world" at the revs we really use day to day the Busa pisses all over the ZX12 by as much as 20BHP, look at the area under the graph and see what is the best motor - instead MCN said the ZX12 Has the best motor coz it's more powerful - dur!
As for this speed limiting stuff - well Kawasaki have done the impossible and invented the only undetectable speed limiter ever built, one that neither retards ignition timing or cuts fuelling - clever chaps those KHI boys. Or it is it that the Kwackers aeros stink and the Busa is simply better, can't possibly be true? - of course it is you morons! MCN are running around trying to justify all the hype they shoved down our throats for the best part of a year and can't seem to work out what most of us already suspected, the ZX12 was delayed again and again there is one reason for that and Suzuki manufacture that reason.
Yes MCN are Morons - live with it.
DC while MCN publish moronic statements like the "ZX12 is obviously as aerodynamic as the Busa" (original top speed shoot out) how can you expect credibility?
One bike looks conventional one looks - well very different, I know what my money is on when it comes to aerodynamics, do you think the Busa looks like that for fun? Did MCN do repeated roll down tests from high speeds with the same rider same tyres and rolling weight to substantiate MCNs view of the bikes being similar aerodynamically? How was the ZX12 "quicker in real world conditions"? Do we use all the available ground clearance of the Busa in the real world? Or use it's full power potential? How is the Kwacker quicker on the road?
Isn't the "real world" quicker bike the one that isn't unstable at high speeds? Riders are always quicker on bikes they can trust. In the "real world" won't the customer notice the extra £1,100 price of the Kawasaki? In the "real world" at the revs we really use day to day the Busa pisses all over the ZX12 by as much as 20BHP, look at the area under the graph and see what is the best motor - instead MCN said the ZX12 Has the best motor coz it's more powerful - dur!
As for this speed limiting stuff - well Kawasaki have done the impossible and invented the only undetectable speed limiter ever built, one that neither retards ignition timing or cuts fuelling - clever chaps those KHI boys. Or it is it that the Kwackers aeros stink and the Busa is simply better, can't possibly be true? - of course it is you morons! MCN are running around trying to justify all the hype they shoved down our throats for the best part of a year and can't seem to work out what most of us already suspected, the ZX12 was delayed again and again there is one reason for that and Suzuki manufacture that reason.
Yes MCN are Morons - live with it.
OB_c.dolan
Registered
June Motorcyclist Magazine is out. Have a copy. Have also done moderate break-in runs at local 1/4 mi. track, only shifting 9 ~ 10,000 rpm. Will do full runs, in about 2 weeks, or so. Did same routine on my Busa, this time, last year. More detailed info posted at www.labusas.org in the ZX-12 Forum.
Another MCN report: http://www.motorcyclenews.com/NEWS/NEWS.asp?page=Latest+News&id=667
ZX-12 190, Busa 191.2
Too close for comfort, I think I'll be ordering one of 'dem dare ttturbos for me's Hooshy Bushy.
ZX-12 190, Busa 191.2
Too close for comfort, I think I'll be ordering one of 'dem dare ttturbos for me's Hooshy Bushy.
G
Guest
"HELD flat-out for lap after lap of Italy's Nardo Speed Bowl, Kawasaki's ZX-12R hit 190.4mph but was still beaten by a Hayabusa by 1.2mph. The test was conducted by Italian bike magazine Superwheels in near-ideal conditions."
I guess the secret alien speed limiters were malfunctioning?
I guess the secret alien speed limiters were malfunctioning?
OB_VegasDude
Registered
The number to beat guys is still 194 the busa still is the speed king...........................dare i say aerodynamics.................
OB_CanuckBusa
Registered
Why don't we refrain from calling people/mags morons?
DC, please keep posting.
I enjoy reading MCN. I don't have to agree with everything in it.
I DO disagree with a number of the comments MCN made about the Busa (i.e., the article wasn't clear to the reader about the tire being shredded during the high speed passes, not the 1/4 passes. In other words, the tire was shredded before the first 1/4 pass was done. At least that is my understanding. So the Busa never really had a chance to put down a good time. That should have been made clear to the readers. But actually, with a tire change, all of this could have been avoided. The logic of why the testing was done this way escapes me.)
What I do like about MCN is that they get results out fairly quick. I have given up waiting for official 12/Busa comparos. Could they drag it out any longer?
What I don't like is when facts aren't laid out clearly, or testing isn't done in a logical fashion.
What I would like to hear are objective results about the 12 vs. the Busa. Is everyone still breaking their 12s in? Have any 12s survived break-in? Or have all the 12s run out of gas on the way to the dragstrip?
Anyways, I won't be trading my Busa in for a 12 anytime soon. I think Suzuki set the bar pretty high.
Consider this, it looks like the 12 was tweaked pretty hard to get the performance. While the Busa appears to be running in a relatively 'mild' state of tune (compared to the 12). Suzuki has left quite a bit of margin in HP and weight to play with.
DC, please keep posting.
I enjoy reading MCN. I don't have to agree with everything in it.
I DO disagree with a number of the comments MCN made about the Busa (i.e., the article wasn't clear to the reader about the tire being shredded during the high speed passes, not the 1/4 passes. In other words, the tire was shredded before the first 1/4 pass was done. At least that is my understanding. So the Busa never really had a chance to put down a good time. That should have been made clear to the readers. But actually, with a tire change, all of this could have been avoided. The logic of why the testing was done this way escapes me.)
What I do like about MCN is that they get results out fairly quick. I have given up waiting for official 12/Busa comparos. Could they drag it out any longer?
What I don't like is when facts aren't laid out clearly, or testing isn't done in a logical fashion.
What I would like to hear are objective results about the 12 vs. the Busa. Is everyone still breaking their 12s in? Have any 12s survived break-in? Or have all the 12s run out of gas on the way to the dragstrip?
Anyways, I won't be trading my Busa in for a 12 anytime soon. I think Suzuki set the bar pretty high.
Consider this, it looks like the 12 was tweaked pretty hard to get the performance. While the Busa appears to be running in a relatively 'mild' state of tune (compared to the 12). Suzuki has left quite a bit of margin in HP and weight to play with.
OB_Thradar
Registered
sunnybusa: My Busa shall remain totally stock, other than maybe a new windscreen. I will so rarely take it to it's limit, I have not interest in sinking another $1000-$2000 to see another 5 mph that I will never use anyway. This bike needs no performance modifications.
OB_DangerMouse
Registered
CanuckBusa, maybe we should stop calling the press Morons the day they stop treating us like morons and spend the money we give them on producing informed and accurate articles.
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