Buy gen3 or gen2?

[Rojo]

The greatest generation | Random Thoughts

Regardless of your opinion on Obamacare and if you think the country needs it or not this picture is pretty funny.... Funny not so much in Ha Ha but funny sad....

www.hayabusa.org

 

[Bumblebee]

We're in full agreement about counter steering. I'm not so sure it's not the only way to ride the Hayabusa. Got a friend with the big BMW 1200 adventure bike, and I am really hesitant to let him ride my gen 3. I had a guy who was a good rider take my original Katana (long, low, clip-ons) and ride it right into a mud puddle where he dumped it. I do think a lot of riders understand neither the theory or practice of countersteering. My buddy with the ZX12R's comment after riding my gen 1 was "my God how do you turn that thing?" Which confused me as I don't find the motorcycle hard to turn at all. Because I naturally countersteer.
We're disagreeing about the light touch and balance described in this Japanese style riding. What they are describing is letting the bike fall into the turn and once stable there, being totally neutral on steering inputs. That light touch will let the front tire point way towards the outside of the curve. But your hips and core have to be engaged enough that you are totally balanced without needing pressure on your hands. I don't think this comes naturally to lots of people including some racers. Greengrass and the Japanese YouTube clips describe it better than I can, but the simplest way would be to ask racers whether they are neutral in steering in the middle of the corner. My money would be that a majority or certainly the best ones would say yes, absolutely. The former AFM champ taught this to me at Sears Point, and I'm pretty sure I've heard Rossi describe the technique as well. You don't seem as though you agree (but the difference between us could be minute amounts of pressure leaned over on the track).

Gotcha on that...

Not sure about this "light touch" business.....out on the streets with blemishes on the road surface and such, being too light might allow the front end to get away from you......? Not sure....

As for neutral cornering, to be honest, I never put much thought into it as riding fast into and out of corners has become so second nature to me that I've not analyzed it.....

I do know that Japanese racers do all the same courses as other racers so I'm not sure if those schools teach this?

I can't remember all the details from the race schools I attended as it's been so long but I can see perhaps transitioning between aggressive to passive cornering stances.....

 

[Claude J. Greengrass]

You're right. I don't understand it, but you're right. I think learning to balance a motorcycle through a locked turn without using the clutch is a feat of balance not unlike a wheelie. It just takes a lot of practice and commitment. Thank you for all your comments, I definitely feel like I'm learning.

Do find some training, with a light bike protected with crash cage, the crash bars won't keep your knees from hurting... I did with CBR500, CBR600RR and GSX1000R and falling down was like playing in the beach! The busa even when fitted with crash pads is no good for self-taught, so if your're gonna do it alone use a light and protected one.

 

[Bumblebee]

I think we should keep an eye on Hayabusa sales. The electric world is coming for us all soon, and the second the Gen 3 is discontinued it's going to be a collector's item. This guy's YouTube channel had another great short where he described the value of getting aftermarket body work, putting it on a new bike, and saving the original plastic in mint condition. That would REALLY bump up the resale value. I like that advice, wish I'd thought of it earlier.

I just read that a few 600s are coming back.....

Motorcycling around here is basically dead.....sport bikes aren't selling at all due to crazy insurance rates..

Even the local college has stopped providing rider training forcing people who want to learn to ride to have to go an hour away to take the course.....

I was at the dealership the other day and it used to be a multi dealer (HD, Kawasaki, Suzuki, Honda and BRP) now it is only Honda and BRP as all the other dealers pulled out...

Out of that they carry no Honda sport bikes as they don't sell.....

One of them was saying that Yamaha will no longer make snowmobiles which is a big deal....

It's a different time.....

 

[Claude J. Greengrass]

It's less about the difference between track and street than about the difference between fast in the curves and tight turns in a parking lot. We have two conversations going here.

If I am really going fast I can do so without putting any weight on the bars, but my ass is off the seat and all the weight is on the balls of my feet and the pegs. I'm thinking doing it your way might be even better and easier and that I need to keep my ass in the seat and get more pressure on the tank with my knees (coordinated with lifting the outside heel and lowering the inside one). I think the better you do this paradoxically the more you feel like a passenger as the bike is simply moving through the curve on its own almost.

Everything is debatable and one has to discover one's relation-connection with the bike alone, I only speak about my own body "connected" with the bike, can't instruct others how to do it...

 

[Claude J. Greengrass]

It's less about the difference between track and street than about the difference between fast in the curves and tight turns in a parking lot. We have two conversations going here.

If I am really going fast I can do so without putting any weight on the bars, but my ass is off the seat and all the weight is on the balls of my feet and the pegs. I'm thinking doing it your way might be even better and easier and that I need to keep my ass in the seat and get more pressure on the tank with my knees (coordinated with lifting the outside heel and lowering the inside one). I think the better you do this paradoxically the more you feel like a passenger as the bike is simply moving through the curve on its own almost.

The "electric" world might disappear as well! There is a paper describing that oil production is sustainable as the earth itself is producing it non-stop (lab demonstration of oil synthesis allegedly happening in the core). Also lithium batteries (firefighter's worst enemies) take a lot of volume and weight and customers are not happy ending up with a reduced volume just to have a few sandwiches and a couple of bottles in the boot (US: trunk). I alone replaced (Honda's spare parts delays) my bi-turbo 1.6 l diesel crv with a 2 l hybrid one (to stay at same loading space and external dimensions), but that one struggles to mount a hill at speed, where the previous one kept me unaware (!) So, let's wait.

 

[Wraiths Empire]

Does your exhaust pop loud when traction control kicks in?

I have not noticed any pops. I have had the traction control indicator stay on before until I stopped the bike and restarted it. I don't even remember what the warning looked like but thought it was weird. Normal? Just did it once.

 

[dcnblues]

Do find some training, with a light bike protected with crash cage, the crash bars won't keep your knees from hurting... I did with CBR500, CBR600RR and GSX1000R and falling down was like playing in the beach! The busa even when fitted with crash pads is no good for self-taught, so if your're gonna do it alone use a light and protected one.

This is not readily available to me, but still good advice. Again thank you for the comments.

 

[dcnblues]

Gotcha on that...

Not sure about this "light touch" business.....out on the streets with blemishes on the road surface and such, being too light might allow the front end to get away from you......? Not sure....

In my experience it's the other way around. If you're letting the front tire choose its own angle, if for any reason you lose traction, physics corrects the slide and the front recovers all on its own. But you have to let it. With that light touch. This is what he was talking about with the Japanese way of letting the motorcycle ride itself. At any angle of lean, it wants to self correct.

 

[Bumblebee]

In my experience it's the other way around. If you're letting the front tire choose its own angle, if for any reason you lose traction, physics corrects the slide and the front recovers all on its own. But you have to let it. With that light touch. This is what he was talking about with the Japanese way of letting the motorcycle ride itself. At any angle of lean, it wants to self correct.

Honestly I don't know if that technique would work in all conditions.....I know I don't have a "death grip" on the bars at any time even while cornering.....I would think I'm doing what you describe without knowing it perhaps? Maybe more so coming out of the corner than going into it.

 

[dcnblues]

Honestly I don't know if that technique would work in all conditions.....I know I don't have a "death grip" on the bars at any time even while cornering.....I would think I'm doing what you describe without knowing it perhaps? Maybe more so coming out of the corner than going into it.

Yeah I get confused reading motorcycle reviews of lighter bikes when they talk about how easy it is to make corner corrections. I always imagine bad riders having to correct for dumb mistakes. Put it this way: I think the Hayabusa has excellent specs to train for counter steer. Heavy, stable and low. So Busa riders with enough experience to corner quickly may simply be more finely honed for counter steer than your average rider. When the ZX12R first came out a review described it as climbing on a 160hp giraffe, compared to the Hayabusa, which was more like climbing onto a 160hp salmon. I always remember that description as it sounds right; a big salmon that will only turn with counter steer.

One difference between heavy-handed riders and those with the light touch was clarified for me again from track instruction. As opposed to a conventional grip on the bars, track professionals hold the bars like an ice cream cone. This analogy emphasizes a soft enough grip to not crush the cone itself, but more importantly once your hands are sideways on the grip, you have all of this finger and rotating finesse available to you. Anyone flexing their hands between wrist curls straight up and down, and twisting their hands like torquing a screwdriver can immediately see/feel the difference. But a lot of riders will blink and say that no one ever told them to hold the bars that way.

If you are in the curves and find yourself using that softer more sideways grip, and NOT leaning forward enough that you have weight on your hands, you're probably in that soft zone. I think it probably also improves feedback. Feeling the front tire not from the palm of your hand / forearm but from your fingertips on the grips and levers really helps your brain feel that contact patch, I imagine. This is what the 'Japanese style' of letting the bike balance its own way through the road is talking about.

 

[Claude J. Greengrass]

Honestly I don't know if that technique would work in all conditions.....I know I don't have a "death grip" on the bars at any time even while cornering.....I would think I'm doing what you describe without knowing it perhaps? Maybe more so coming out of the corner than going into it.

All depends on the conditions in place. I observed myself when cornering at speed (not just maneuvers at idle) holding the handlebars somewhat tight... Everything has its own place then.

 

[Bumblebee]

All depends on the conditions in place. I observed myself when cornering at speed (not just manoeuvers at idle) holding the handlebars somewhat tight... Everything at its place then.

I do find my experience on the track does carry over to the street but only in moderation as there are so many variables on the street that you don't encounter racing...

To add to this sometimes I'm riding lazy on the street as I'm just out to enjoy the day.....when I was racing, there were no lazy rides, it was all out for blood then....

 

[Claude J. Greengrass]

I do find my experience on the track does carry over to the street but only in moderation as there are so many variables on the street that you don't encounter racing...

To add to this sometimes I'm riding lazy on the street as I'm just out to enjoy the day.....when I was racing, there were no lazy rides, it was all out for blood then....

I did never compete on motorcycle (just a little shooting sport and judo) and I must admit I am not the competitive sort. I however do immensely enjoy exercise, any type, and especially for the bike I appreciate anything conferring skills increasing confidence, control and general ability to deal with the unexpected. Security for the... hardware and software (bike and body, in the opposite order though) are paramount. I also enjoy anticipating and preventing the menacing actions of the usual car assassins in the road, and I discover there a sort of "spice" when employing all senses to monitor the road and its surroundings... like a stimulation drug! In terms of body fitness I see very beneficial the sport position, that motivates to work out the back as well. I finally find amusement approaching a red light very slowly, to give it time to turn green without foot down!
I am looking forward for the opportunity to make some alpine pass (Gottardo or Bernardino), a thing probably for the summer, when all traffic gets slowly through the miserable tunnels (I once remember a Ferrari pulled over for the safety of its engine...!)
Belonging to a bikers' club and touring in a herd is rather annoying to me.

 

[Rojo]

Should I buy a Gen III | Gen 3 Busa Information

I've never thought of buying a Busa because I was never thrilled with the looks but the Gen III has caught my attention and now I'm thinking of adding one to the stable. I owned a BMW K1300S, 2018 H2SXSE and ZX14R so I'm not new to fast bikes but this would be my first Suzuki so I have a few...

www.hayabusa.org

 

[Bumblebee]

Should I buy a Gen III | Gen 3 Busa Information

I've never thought of buying a Busa because I was never thrilled with the looks but the Gen III has caught my attention and now I'm thinking of adding one to the stable. I owned a BMW K1300S, 2018 H2SXSE and ZX14R so I'm not new to fast bikes but this would be my first Suzuki so I have a few...

www.hayabusa.org

View attachment 1681033

I'd be wondering what he used for a data logger......and how accurate it is.....

These guys are promoting the Gen 3...

 

[jellyrug]

^^^^^
That is so close, rider input can skew the data.

 

[Bumblebee]

^^^^^
That is so close, rider input can skew the data.

In one shot it looked like the Gen 2 was coming around the Gen 3....

I agree, rider input is the key difference between any of the Hayabusa generations....

 

[Solyom]

In one shot it looked like the Gen 2 was coming around the Gen 3....

I agree, rider input is the key difference between any of the Hayabusa generations....

My personal opinion: IF, the rider aids are off, yes it is close. If not, many of the gen 3 owners can be beaten with a gen 2 ridden by a pro easily. IF the gen 2 rider is pro. If s/he is not, then I guess with rider aids on, the gen 3 rider aids easily level the playing field of powerloss in comparison of gen 2.
(and this is strictly an opinion as I haven't got any racing experience.)

 

[Bumblebee]

My personal opinion: IF, the rider aids are off, yes it is close. If not, many of the gen 3 owners can be beaten with a gen 2 ridden by a pro easily. IF the gen 2 rider is pro. If s/he is not, then I guess with rider aids on, the gen 3 rider aids easily level the playing field of powerloss in comparison of gen 2.
(and this is strictly an opinion as I haven't got any racing experience.)

If a pro was on a 400, they could give a Hayabusa a good run in most if not all conditions....professional riders are on an entirely different level than we mere mortals...

I did a couple race schools and raced superbike and in my best years I was nowhere close to the professionals.