church income controversy
- Thread starter WWJD
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Just my two cents....
I believe churches have operating costs (light bill, telephone, etc) and that when they have outreach programs they need the money.. so yes I do give every time I go...
BUT.... since I have been in the south, I have seen more fly by night so called "preachers" driving around in Caddies and Beamers, dressed to the nines, and hanging out in bars and strip joints.
That right there is what BURNS me towards giving.
I know what my church does with the money (my family has all served on the church board and our minister drives a beat up Cavalier) but I think it should be obvious to those OTHER CHURCH'S Parishoners what is happening with their money.
I believe churches have operating costs (light bill, telephone, etc) and that when they have outreach programs they need the money.. so yes I do give every time I go...
BUT.... since I have been in the south, I have seen more fly by night so called "preachers" driving around in Caddies and Beamers, dressed to the nines, and hanging out in bars and strip joints.
That right there is what BURNS me towards giving.
I know what my church does with the money (my family has all served on the church board and our minister drives a beat up Cavalier) but I think it should be obvious to those OTHER CHURCH'S Parishoners what is happening with their money.
To put it simply: If you don't like'em DON'T GIVE !!
And IF they're WRONGLY using the money, then they should be accountable and pay the Tax where it's Allowed ! But you also need to realize, there are abuses in a lot of Charities. Like the Red Cross, United Fund, YMCA and so on. That doesn't mean that all are there just for the Money. And as far as a Rolex, well, I wear one and have since 1968 as a Lt in the Army. So, what does that say about me
. Probably the same as riding a BUSA
and being financially successful. There's always people who think your a crook because of what your able to own
. I don't begrudge anyone who is financially Blessed if it's made legally
And IF they're WRONGLY using the money, then they should be accountable and pay the Tax where it's Allowed ! But you also need to realize, there are abuses in a lot of Charities. Like the Red Cross, United Fund, YMCA and so on. That doesn't mean that all are there just for the Money. And as far as a Rolex, well, I wear one and have since 1968 as a Lt in the Army. So, what does that say about me
I am a religous person but I do not go to Church. I do not go to Church because I do not support the Church as a non-profit organization. They make a profit. They create internal by-laws. They can sign contracts. They can sue and be sued. But more importantly (IMO) the priniple members of the Church financially benefit from increased profits. The goal of any corporation is to increase profits to please shareholders. Should a leader with above average talents, qualities and abilities make more money than another? Yes. A religous leader that has built an organization larger than another should make more money... but they shouldn't want to take it. After all, isn't part of the message to not tie yourself to material things anyway? Correct me if I'm wrong... our military has leaders with different levels of ability and are paid accordingly by pay grade. Seperation of Church and State... I hear you. But what if the church was pressured to create a designated pay grade to continue to avoid taxation? If you run it as a true non-profit organization than no tax... you hop on the Church jet to go hunting on the 5000 acre Church Ranch... write the Government a check and call it a day. Your still not going hungry. Just my .02.
"should make more money... but they shouldn't want to take it"
oh man I TOTALLY agree with you there. but with that, our entire world is based on the philosophy that to feel good about your self and existance you are measured by financial numbers. [that is SO wrong, but that's a whole other topic]
I don't know how ANYONE could exsist in our society and NOT be a part of that. I kinda try to live a basic life, but end up with more toys than many would ever dream of.... but if they were all gone tommorrow, I could care less.
But, yes, VERY RARELY do we see preachers living meek unmateristic lives, like you would THINK they should do to represent that one can be happy without a lot of stuff.
But but, as a human in this world, I'll admit I get a little bit more of a charge buying something a little nicer, or more expensive than the lesser option, just because it's nice. Even if no one ELSE will ever see it. EVERYBODY lives like this. It is the underlying social redemption breed into us all from birth in the US of A. It's part greed, envy, selfishness, mixed in with the removal of our own ability to do something significant... or rather that significance in life, and success being defined by numbers..... FINANCIAL numbers. Hence: I no longer go out and kill buffalos to PROVIDE for my family, I go to work and kill spreadsheets to earn MONEY to provide for my family. Sad really, because the buffalo hunting, killing, cooking and PROVIDING is what makes us real men. not to mention the whole COMPETATIVE thing forced down our throats starting in kindergarten with being the best speller or whatever. That's adds to the equasion.
So... we all like nice things don't we? If I became a preacher, should I throw out all the stuff I enjoy? My video games, movies, recording studio, my bikes, my cars.... just to show how "Dedicated" I was? I dont think so.
Most CEO's make WAY more than they are worth, and they buy Rolex. And no body asks if they have used the company's earnings in a proper manner
It's all relative, but hypocratical people, including myself in that group, point at preachers and say, "um... hey... didn't you take a vow of NO FUN or something like that?"
FOUNDING FATHERS: When I went through school, one of the MAJOR FACTORS in the creation of this country was not letting the government control, or run churchs like back in England.... maybe that included overblown taxation? ? So, the people that setup our laws and crap wanted to separate government away from the chruch. I suppose no taxes was par of the freedom / non profit thing. I hope we never forget this as it is being unwritten from our history books.
There's schiesters in churchs... there's schiesters in many regular businesses... but the other businesses don't preach a direction for happiness and love... usually quite the opposite
oh man I TOTALLY agree with you there. but with that, our entire world is based on the philosophy that to feel good about your self and existance you are measured by financial numbers. [that is SO wrong, but that's a whole other topic]
I don't know how ANYONE could exsist in our society and NOT be a part of that. I kinda try to live a basic life, but end up with more toys than many would ever dream of.... but if they were all gone tommorrow, I could care less.
But, yes, VERY RARELY do we see preachers living meek unmateristic lives, like you would THINK they should do to represent that one can be happy without a lot of stuff.
But but, as a human in this world, I'll admit I get a little bit more of a charge buying something a little nicer, or more expensive than the lesser option, just because it's nice. Even if no one ELSE will ever see it. EVERYBODY lives like this. It is the underlying social redemption breed into us all from birth in the US of A. It's part greed, envy, selfishness, mixed in with the removal of our own ability to do something significant... or rather that significance in life, and success being defined by numbers..... FINANCIAL numbers. Hence: I no longer go out and kill buffalos to PROVIDE for my family, I go to work and kill spreadsheets to earn MONEY to provide for my family. Sad really, because the buffalo hunting, killing, cooking and PROVIDING is what makes us real men. not to mention the whole COMPETATIVE thing forced down our throats starting in kindergarten with being the best speller or whatever. That's adds to the equasion.
So... we all like nice things don't we? If I became a preacher, should I throw out all the stuff I enjoy? My video games, movies, recording studio, my bikes, my cars.... just to show how "Dedicated" I was? I dont think so.
Most CEO's make WAY more than they are worth, and they buy Rolex. And no body asks if they have used the company's earnings in a proper manner
It's all relative, but hypocratical people, including myself in that group, point at preachers and say, "um... hey... didn't you take a vow of NO FUN or something like that?"
FOUNDING FATHERS: When I went through school, one of the MAJOR FACTORS in the creation of this country was not letting the government control, or run churchs like back in England.... maybe that included overblown taxation? ? So, the people that setup our laws and crap wanted to separate government away from the chruch. I suppose no taxes was par of the freedom / non profit thing. I hope we never forget this as it is being unwritten from our history books.
There's schiesters in churchs... there's schiesters in many regular businesses... but the other businesses don't preach a direction for happiness and love... usually quite the opposite
proud dad
Registered
I'm waisting my time with this cause people are too ignorant in general to get it and that includes a few church's out there.So simple a cave man would get it.
Separation of Church and State..............the state has no say at all on how a church is run.Tithes and offerings given to the church is not touchable by the state.Tax excempt.Here's where people screw up.A pastor of a church will receive a weekly salory.A simple weekly paycheck.[which is voted upon by the church]That paycheck is taxable.Because it is his job.If the church is large enough to have an assistant pastor,a church secratary and a janitor.Those people are paid a wage.Their wage is taxable,because it is their job.
The money that comes into the church IS NOT suppose to be controled by one person,but by the clergyman of the church.Which is a voted position of the church members.
The church I grew up in the pastor COULD NOT even write a check out of the church's account.He wanted that way,didn't want people to call him a crook.And yes he pay's taxes on the salory he receives from the church.
That pic above of the Baker's is sad.They're doing nothing but given all church's a bad rap.
A pastor that does his job right and from the heart will never need nothing.The people of the church will take care of him.
Separation of Church and State..............the state has no say at all on how a church is run.Tithes and offerings given to the church is not touchable by the state.Tax excempt.Here's where people screw up.A pastor of a church will receive a weekly salory.A simple weekly paycheck.[which is voted upon by the church]That paycheck is taxable.Because it is his job.If the church is large enough to have an assistant pastor,a church secratary and a janitor.Those people are paid a wage.Their wage is taxable,because it is their job.
The money that comes into the church IS NOT suppose to be controled by one person,but by the clergyman of the church.Which is a voted position of the church members.
The church I grew up in the pastor COULD NOT even write a check out of the church's account.He wanted that way,didn't want people to call him a crook.And yes he pay's taxes on the salory he receives from the church.
That pic above of the Baker's is sad.They're doing nothing but given all church's a bad rap.
A pastor that does his job right and from the heart will never need nothing.The people of the church will take care of him.
I hear your points and agree with most to an extent. I personally know many religous leaders that live moderate life styles. I know and surround myself with many people that live well below their means and strategize to be debt free. Both groups, myself included, will continue to play in a society with materialistic values. My point is not to give up those things... my point was they should choose to regulate their earnings and use of corporate... sorry Church owned assets. If the Church owns it... and I give to the Church so they can purchase it... shouldn't I get a time share or something?
black_angel
Registered
nevermore nevermore
the way i see christianity from this side of the atlantic is that the americans are making up for lost time. it's like it has become the working class tool. it is everywhere, every tv programme you see there is always someday owning up to being with jesus. what it'll be like 25 years down the line i don't know. i should be dead then probably as well.
this was just a rough sketcth
the way i see christianity from this side of the atlantic is that the americans are making up for lost time. it's like it has become the working class tool. it is everywhere, every tv programme you see there is always someday owning up to being with jesus. what it'll be like 25 years down the line i don't know. i should be dead then probably as well.
this was just a rough sketcth
You don't want your religious leader driving a pinto, do you?
You don't want your religious counselor to dress shabbily, do you?
You don't want your spiritual leader living on the streets, do you?
You don't want the voice of your church talking from a vacant lot, do you?
You don't want your preacher having to strain his voice to be heard from the back of the tabernacle, do you?
You don't want your minister to have to park in the back of the lot, do you?
You don't want your elder to have to ask twice for tidings, do you?
You don't want your priest to have to use the info that he heard in confessional to blackmail you into giving money to the church, do you?
You don't want your religious counselor to dress shabbily, do you?
You don't want your spiritual leader living on the streets, do you?
You don't want the voice of your church talking from a vacant lot, do you?
You don't want your preacher having to strain his voice to be heard from the back of the tabernacle, do you?
You don't want your minister to have to park in the back of the lot, do you?
You don't want your elder to have to ask twice for tidings, do you?
You don't want your priest to have to use the info that he heard in confessional to blackmail you into giving money to the church, do you?
very interesting take, lamb! that makes some sense there. so the position ITSELF can NEVER be right. would I continue to go and attend a church headed up by a scruffy, scroungy looking looser type of guy? Honestly, probably not. I would wonder, "what does THIS freak have to offer ME that I can't already figure out? He obviously doesn't have his act together... I should not listen to HIM" true, that's NOT WJWD, but that's probably my truth..... on the flipside, could I continue attending a church where the preacher wore $2000 custom suits, multiple Rolex's, and drove a variety of really expensive cars? No, I'd consider him a hypocrite against the christian ideals of what is truly immportant in life, and stop going. again, not WJWD, but that's how I would feel about it.
so it's a no win. can't please everyone at once.
The uber rich need God too. Maybe they prefer to go to, and donate to churches where the rich preachers go? I dunno. Just a thought
Proud Dad, I suspect it's that way in a lot of churches. Only makes sense - safest approach
In the end, if whoever is talking is not reaching your mind and heart about things God related, move on and don't donate. But the gov needs to remain cut off from everyone religious endeavors to maintian a separation of state FROM the church.
If the gov regulates it in ANYWAY, they must also decide which God will be supported, and the country would no longer say:
IN GOD WE TRUST
so it's a no win. can't please everyone at once.
The uber rich need God too. Maybe they prefer to go to, and donate to churches where the rich preachers go? I dunno. Just a thought
Proud Dad, I suspect it's that way in a lot of churches. Only makes sense - safest approach
In the end, if whoever is talking is not reaching your mind and heart about things God related, move on and don't donate. But the gov needs to remain cut off from everyone religious endeavors to maintian a separation of state FROM the church.
If the gov regulates it in ANYWAY, they must also decide which God will be supported, and the country would no longer say:
IN GOD WE TRUST
webbashl
Registered
or try this one on
Romans 3:22-24
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:22-24
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
webbashl
Registered
First, it is important to point out that all Churches or Pastors shouldn't be characterized as "crooks". It may seem like many evangelical Christian leaders are caught in scandals, but this is due to the extreme amount of attention such scandals are given. There are thousands of evangelical Christian leaders, pastors, professors, missionaries, writers, and evangelists who have never participated in anything "scandalous." The vast majority of evangelical Christian leaders are men and women who love God, are faithful to their spouses and families, and handle their activities with the utmost honesty and integrity. The failures of a few should not be used to attack the character of all.
With that said, there is still the problem that scandals do sometimes occur among those claiming to be evangelical Christians. Prominent Christian leaders have been exposed for committing adultery or participating in prostitution. Some evangelical Christians have been convicted of tax-fraud and other financial illegalities. Why does this occur? There are at least three primary explanations: (1) Some of those claiming to be evangelical Christians are charlatans, (2) Some evangelical Christian leaders allow their position to result in pride, (3) Satan and his demons more aggressively attack and tempt those in Christian leadership because they know that a scandal involving a leader can have devastating results, on both Christians and non-Christians. We all fall short of the Glory of God
How are we to respond when an evangelical Christian leader is accused or caught in a scandal? (1) Do not listen to or accept baseless and unfounded accusations (Proverbs 18:8,17; 1 Timothy 5:19). (2) Take appropriate biblical measures to rebuke those who sin (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Timothy 5:20). If the sin is proven and severe, permanent removal from ministry leadership should be enforced (1 Timothy 3:1-13). (3) Forgive those who sin (Ephesians 4
; Colossians 3:13), and when repentance is proven, restore them to fellowship (Galatians 6:1; 1 Peter 4:8). (4) Be faithful in praying for our leaders. Knowing the problems they deal with, the temptations they suffer, and the stress they must endure, we should be praying for our leaders, asking God to strengthen them, protect them, and encourage them. (5) Most importantly, take the failure of an evangelical Christian leader as a reminder to put your ultimate faith in God, and God alone. God never fails, never sins, and never lies. "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD Almighty; the whole earth is full of His glory" (Isaiah 6:3).
With all of this said I suggest you get out the big book and read about tithe and wealth. There is an answer to life's ever question in the bible if you seek it. I'm very surprised of some of the comments made on this thread
With that said, there is still the problem that scandals do sometimes occur among those claiming to be evangelical Christians. Prominent Christian leaders have been exposed for committing adultery or participating in prostitution. Some evangelical Christians have been convicted of tax-fraud and other financial illegalities. Why does this occur? There are at least three primary explanations: (1) Some of those claiming to be evangelical Christians are charlatans, (2) Some evangelical Christian leaders allow their position to result in pride, (3) Satan and his demons more aggressively attack and tempt those in Christian leadership because they know that a scandal involving a leader can have devastating results, on both Christians and non-Christians. We all fall short of the Glory of God
How are we to respond when an evangelical Christian leader is accused or caught in a scandal? (1) Do not listen to or accept baseless and unfounded accusations (Proverbs 18:8,17; 1 Timothy 5:19). (2) Take appropriate biblical measures to rebuke those who sin (Matthew 18:15-17; 1 Timothy 5:20). If the sin is proven and severe, permanent removal from ministry leadership should be enforced (1 Timothy 3:1-13). (3) Forgive those who sin (Ephesians 4
With all of this said I suggest you get out the big book and read about tithe and wealth. There is an answer to life's ever question in the bible if you seek it. I'm very surprised of some of the comments made on this thread
Excellent response there Webbashl! Great stuff! Very true about the demons thing. Nothing better than getting christian's lots of bad press to convince the majority that ALL Christians are fallen hypocrites.
Which comments suprise you? Might make for some more stimulating discussions.
Something else you said just struck me too... read about tithe and wealth. One of the biggest issues on our planet is the preception of "wealth". Spiritually, I beleive people and their souls are the only things of value in the universe. But people's PRECEPTION of wealth, IE dollar amounts used to gather certain things - tends to be the cause of envy, hatred, suspicion, etc etc. It's JUST money! To me, a Rolex is no more valuable than a free digital watch from a box of cracker jacks. Sure, the rolex took more parts and R&D to put together and GETTING one takes a lot of money, but it is still just a time piece that accomplishes what I need it to do: tell time. but if my Rolex is mostly purchased to show other people how cool it is or I am, then I have put incorrect value in it, it's value grows vie boosting my ego with each person telling me how cool it is, I've placed value in the wrong place.
Things only have VALUE when a large number of people are after it and think it is valuable. PEOPLE should be of the most value, yet so much in the world today works to devalue people, the individual, the child, the wife, the father etc THESE are things of value. Not watches, cars, a preachers income etc
sorry I keep ranting !
Which comments suprise you? Might make for some more stimulating discussions.
Something else you said just struck me too... read about tithe and wealth. One of the biggest issues on our planet is the preception of "wealth". Spiritually, I beleive people and their souls are the only things of value in the universe. But people's PRECEPTION of wealth, IE dollar amounts used to gather certain things - tends to be the cause of envy, hatred, suspicion, etc etc. It's JUST money! To me, a Rolex is no more valuable than a free digital watch from a box of cracker jacks. Sure, the rolex took more parts and R&D to put together and GETTING one takes a lot of money, but it is still just a time piece that accomplishes what I need it to do: tell time. but if my Rolex is mostly purchased to show other people how cool it is or I am, then I have put incorrect value in it, it's value grows vie boosting my ego with each person telling me how cool it is, I've placed value in the wrong place.
Things only have VALUE when a large number of people are after it and think it is valuable. PEOPLE should be of the most value, yet so much in the world today works to devalue people, the individual, the child, the wife, the father etc THESE are things of value. Not watches, cars, a preachers income etc
sorry I keep ranting !
You guys are all really missing the point. If workers have to pay taxes so should a " CHURCH". If someone in your family dies and leaves you money you will be taxed on that money. I don't know about any other state laws but in Louisiana you can recieve up to like $60,000 as a donation or gift and not be taxed on that amount unless it exceeds 60k. Once that happens any and every dollar donated or gifted to you is in fact taxable.... So yes churches should be NO exception....and should pay taxes after a 60k donation or gift......
webbashl
Registered
But Kruzin listen to this, I quote from a Franklin Roosevelt comment, "But that would be taxing God!"
Does not the Constitution clearly prohibit the government from making any law restricting religion? Does not the ability to tax actually mean the ability to control "“ or destroy? I thought most of us believed in the separation of church and state (but not separation of God and state), but if so, how can any government entity presume to tax the church? After all, a "higher" always taxes a "lower," and will any Bible believer maintain that government is over the Church of the Living God? I thought Christ was preeminent over all.
Will a Bible church take money given for Christian purposes and give it to Caesar? Well, Jesus did say to give unto Caesar what belongs to him and unto God what belongs to Him; however, Jesus was giving that command to persons not churches. If a church will pay an income tax to the government are they admitting that the church is a business like the local pizza parlor? And what will be the limit of the tax? Sure, they could pay 1% of income but what will they plead when the tax is 10% or more? You can't plead convictions because convictions would not permit you to pay any percent.
If the government is over the Church of God, I'd like to know when it took place. Someone will remind us that churches receive benefits from government such as police and fire protection, garbage pick-up, etc., but then the members have paid for those benefits as individuals.
No, churches must not, under any conditions, pay taxes. After all, the power to tax is the power to destroy (or control). Wouldn't it be ironic for Bible-believing Christians to participate in an effort to dig out the foundations of the church in an attempt to "do the right thing"? The "right thing" is for churches to maintain their sovereignty and refuse to pay taxes even when church leaders are dragged off to jail, and when church buildings are sold at public auction to pay the illegal tax on God. Sounds tough, but Christ didn't promise us a rose garden "“ only a cross but we have to pick it up. Want you pick the cross up and make that sacrifice?!
webbashl
Registered
You've got it
right on Webbashl. and, as always, when people see churches or people in churches doing wrong, screwing up, or skimming off the top.... it is the PEOPLE doing it and not God, or due to following God's words. it's PEOPLE, and people have this nasty tendancey to do wrong things. But we CAN be saved from that. oooh, dropped that one in quite nicely! hahahahaha
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