Civilians Killed in Gaza....

[C-Dog]

…and the Award for Best Revision of History goes to…

[QUOTE1981: Putting their so-called pre-emptive policy in action, Israeli warplanes raided and destroyed a peaceful Iraqi nuclear reactor near Baghdad.][/QUOTE]

Because Saddam Hussein just wanted a Cleaner and Greener Iraq and had no Nuclear Weapons ambition!
Let us pray that someone has the Balls to take out Iran’s “Peaceful” Reactor before they start making Nukes.

Yes. There are two sides to every story. And certainly the Media can spin things the way they want. And the beauty of living in a Democracy is that we can choose to believe what we want and even agree to disagree. I’ll take my news from CNN and you can continue to get yours from Al Jazeera and Miftah.
It’s all good Bro.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

…and the Award for Best Revision of History goes to…

Putting their so-called pre-emptive policy in action, Israeli warplanes raided and destroyed a peaceful Iraqi nuclear reactor near Baghdad.

Because Saddam Hussein just wanted a Cleaner and Greener Iraq and had no Nuclear Weapons ambition!
Let us pray that someone has the Balls to take out Iran’s “Peacefulâ€￾ Reactor before they start making Nukes.

Yes. There are two sides to every story. And certainly the Media can spin things the way they want. And the beauty of living in a Democracy is that we can choose to believe what we want and even agree to disagree. I’ll take my news from CNN and you can continue to get yours from Al Jazeera and Miftah.
It’s all good Bro.

That's the best you can do? Try to correct ONE snippit of all I posted?
The media has not spun any of that HISTORY. What is their spin in the video of the IDF troops smashing those guys with rocks?
Hmmm I see just more cockroaches needing to be stomped...


More like been there and seen it MYSELF. Formulated my own opinion as a result or actually seeing things with my own eyes. More like lived in Beirut and saw two IDF soldiers places the arm of a six year old boy between two cinder blocks and step on it MYSELF. It snapped he screamed bloody murder and ran off, they laughed and left with my own eyes.

Did not mention Al Jazeerah or Mitfah.
But thanks for proving me right when I said you get yours from CNN, the ministry of truth.
Armchair quarterback making foreign policy from the comfort of your sofa...

 

[skydivr]

I go back to my original post; the Palestineans need to try something different, because what they are doing right now isn't working so well for them.

Figure this Saiid: You can stand in Israel and publicly say what you've said above without threat of repercussion. You stand in Gaza and speak against Hamas - and you are a dead man....

 

[GNBRETT]

so I see ur avoiding the question. once again.... how many Israelis have strapped bombs to themselves and walked into Gaza and blown ppl up? how many? you see this is the reason the blockade you keep referring to exists because when Israel allows Palestinians to freely come into their country they start blowing themselves up on buses or local civilian markets. and you wonder why their not allowed into their country.... just can't imagine why that is?

we all know Israel has nuclear bombs and Hamas does not. do you think for one second that if Hamas had nuclear bombs they wud not detonate one in Israel? lol of course they would cause their SAVAGES!!!!!

people like you site all these so-called atrocities that Israel has committed but the realty is its Hamas or watever coward organization currently existing in Gaza that engages in WAR with Israel and as a result they defend themselves and subsequently people die and then the COWARDS over in Gaza cry and say "look what Israel did". actually its look what Hamas did...

yep there is poverty in Gaza and I'm sure living there is pretty horrible but the fact remains that Hamas or any muslim over there has no intention to co-exist with Israel with a two part solution cause they hate jews. the jews never hated the muslims. the jews hated the NAZI'S!!!!! but the muslims hated the jews and therefore wanted them dead over their jahid.... hows that been working out for the muslims Saiid? huh?

Israel is gonna go in there and take back Gaza. mark my words..... its the only way they will stop these COWARDS from launching rockets into civilian neighborhoods. its funny how you never touch on the fact that Hamas does not target military installations and WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY target civilians day after day, month after month, year after year but let one rocket launched from Israel strike an area that has more civilians then terrorists and OMG Israelis is the devil..... ur hatred for the jews is no different then Hams which is pretty sad!

They don't have to. They have American jets with American bombs that they can drop on people in fruit markets during their own called cease fire which they themselves then broke.


More moral soldiers acting professionally....

No coin has only one side. I do not support Hamas. I do not agree with their ideals or campaign of firing rockets. Only posting history and reasons for the hatred. But I will not tolerate the blind faith Israel can do no wrong philosophy. For they are equally as guilty.


All those who have actually been there please raise their hands........


........like I thought.....

Bunch of armchair quarterbacks repeating cnns party line.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

I go back to my original post; the Palestineans need to try something different, because what they are doing right now isn't working so well for them.

Figure this Saiid: You can stand in Israel and publicly say what you've said above without threat of repercussion. You stand in Gaza and speak against Hamas - and you are a dead man....

Wrong again.

Can you really speak out there? Seems like same thing happens. Right wing radicals come beat you down while authorities stand by...

Tel Aviv Is Under Red Alert ? In Many Ways ? Forward.com

Do a little more research on those freedoms you think they have.

Speech in Israel Is Not Free : Columbia Journalism Review

"Does Israel have a free press? Israeli news media must routinely submit their work to military censors for approval prior to publication. Imagine if journalists in the United States were forced to hand over their work to the Marines for their blessing, and then ask yourself if the American press, bound by such shackles, could be considered free. An Israeli journalist reported in an op-ed in the International Herald Tribune this month that another Israeli journalist and ex-soldier had been sentenced to four and a half years in jail for blowing the whistle on potential Israeli war crimes. This was after the whistleblower was confined to house arrest for two years. "

Won't see this pov broadcast here.
IDF generals son 'If Israel doesn't like rockets decolonize'

Facts All US Citizens Need to Know About Israel and Palestine Washington's Blog

"Gaza (along with the West Bank and East Jerusalem) is occupied Palestinian territory under international law, determined by the vast majority of the world, as well as the highest court in the world, the UN’s International Court of Justice. Gaza cannot commit aggression against Israel, since Israel is in constant and continual commission of illegal aggression against Palestine by occupying it (illegally and sadistically blockading it and frequently committing terrorism against its civilians, including by targeting them with chemical weapons provided by US taxpayers – see “Rain of Fireâ€￾ by Human Rights Watch). As documented by Amnesty Int’l, Human Rights Watch, and many others, Israel intentionally targets and murders civilians, including children, en masse.
Israel also kidnaps and tortures children, including by keeping them in outdoor cages, over night, in winter.

But, even ignoring international law and that Gaza is under illegal Israeli occupation, Gaza did not initiate this current round of violence; Israel did:
Western/US/Israeli propaganda says the violence started with the kidnapping and killing of three Israeli youths on June 12th. That is a lie:
On May 20th, the Israeli government murdered 2 unarmed Palestinian teens, one on video, and wounded a third.
The firing of pathetic scrap metal rockets from impoverished Gaza, which have killed no one, were in fact launched in response to earlier Israeli bombings, killings, assassinations, and arrests of Palestinians, including children.

Please pay attn to video and dates of the youtube which are before they will have you believe Hamas started firing rockets.

Israel Offers Excuses After Video Shows Troops Killing Palestinian Teens -- News from Antiwar.com

Since the year 2000, Israel has killed 1,500 Palestinian children, while Palestinians have killed 132 Israeli children. That means Israel has killed over 1,000% percent more Palestinian children than vice versa."


All of this info and all of these FACTS can easily be found online which I did in about ten minutes. All you need to do is take off those IDF issued blinders and open your minds.
Two sides to every coin and Israel is just as guilty of perpetuating this cycle of violence.


And Brett I already answered your question. Israelis don't have to strap explosives to themselves. They can just swoop in flying a fifty million dollar jet we gave them loaded with 'precision' bombs you paid for.
Would it make you feel better if the Palestinians had jets and didn't use suicide bombers? You think they choose to do that? You think they wouldn't be happy to have a rifle instead of an explosive vest? By whatever means they can they will resist.

I don't support it but I understand it.

The last few months since my brother died I have really rekindled my faith in God and Jesus Christ. Sam's death was in his plan as what is happening in the Holy Land is as well. I can only assume God intends for there to be continued strife and suffering there so when Christ descends for the second coming ALL will look up and realize there are grander things involved.

I wish for all to live in peace. I will leave this thread with this link and a picture. There needs to be more of this there....

Jews and Arabs refuse to be enemies: Social media campaign goes viral (PHOTOS) ? RT News



Peace to all.....

 

[busagreek]

War is when soldiers fight soldiers...
When soldiers kille at least 1600 civilians(300 of them CHILDS)
hitting schools and hospitals with rockets it is war crime.....

 

[skydivr]

As is shooting rockets from schools and hospitals......

 

[Delgado]

They saying goes: You claim we use our civilians as shields yet it is your weapons that are shooting them down.

All those who have actually been there please raise their hands........


........like I thought.....

Bunch of armchair quarterbacks repeating cnns party line.

Having family living there and almost all my relatives living there (cousin shot during the Goldstein incident and the Abu Khdeir family related through my dad's side), sometimes it gets tough living here when so many people tell me how Israel has the right to do whatever it takes to defend themselves (despite being the aggressor).. A lot of these people have no idea I'm of Palestinian descent and when I finally announce it to them and point out flaws in their arguments, they admit to having little knowledge of the situation :rolleyes2: These are the very same people who are probably, as you've stated, armchair quarterbacks.

I find it hard to justify demolishing an entire shelter, school, housing complex, hospital, etc. filled with people. At this point, the Palestinians have nothing else to lose. Seeing footage of people walking back to their demolished neighborhoods, going back to nothing but rubble, no water, electricity, no family, and no reason to live really, it amazes me they don't just kill themselves right there on the spot. Its sad to know that hospitals are now using fridges and ice boxes to store bodies in as they're running out of room.

This is a systematic massacre.. Nothing less.

 

[fallenarch]

I don't know who is right, and maybe that's really the point. This has been going on for so long that no one is right anymore. But I know that if you shoot rockets randomly at me I will destroy you if I can. And I will not make peace with someone who says I should not exist. Israel at least will entertain a Palestinian state. None of the Arab states want the Palestinians. It just seems Siiad that someone in the Arab community has to come at this logically. Otherwise Israel has to kill people, any people in the way.

Can you imagine an American president not firing on an enemy who is sending rockets into our country? BTW the only reason there are not a lot of jewish casualties is because of Iron Sheild, which is getting a lot of those rockets before they land. So Hammas is killing less civilians because they can't kill them, not because they aren't trying.

If you can Siiad pleas help me understand?

 

[GNBRETT]

that post made me LOL !!! how bout this? stop launching rockets from hospitals and schools and Israel won't fire back at the locations where the rockets ORIGINATED from.... did you think of that? no I didn't think so.

and WAR is when one side fires rockets at the other sides military installations or bases. how bout all the rockets Hamas launches into Israel every day that are UNGUIDED. but thats ok tho right? keep drinking the kool aid with Hamas and all the other terrorist organizations around the world.... smh

War is when soldiers fight soldiers...
When soldiers kille at least 1600 civilians(300 of them CHILDS)
hitting schools and hospitals with rockets it is war crime.....

 

[GNBRETT]

there is nothing for Saiid to teach you. Saiid sides with terrorists and thinks its ok to launch rockets into civilian neighborhoods of Israel causing them to live in fear every day cause he like most other muslims do not feel that jews should even exist.

Hamas has the same hatred and racism as the Nazi's did. the difference being is that Israel keeps kicking the muslims asses just like they did in the 6 day war and they won't concede to the fact that they have ZERO chance of defeating Israel but they will keep sacrificing their civilians in their endless battle for a land they will NEVER occupy.

the leaders of Hamas have made it very clear that they DO NOT want a two state solution and when asked if they want a two state solution they change the subject and start rambling about something else. just like Saiid does when asked direct questions about Hamas.

Israel is ok with a two state solution but not Hamas or anyone else from Palestine. they are not willing to negotiate and live in peace. they have made that clear. they are only interesting is sacrificing their own people at the expense of the jahid.

I don't know who is right, and maybe that's really the point. This has been going on for so long that no one is right anymore. But I know that if you shoot rockets randomly at me I will destroy you if I can. And I will not make peace with someone who says I should not exist. Israel at least will entertain a Palestinian state. None of the Arab states want the Palestinians. It just seems Siiad that someone in the Arab community has to come at this logically. Otherwise Israel has to kill people, any people in the way.

Can you imagine an American president not firing on an enemy who is sending rockets into our country? BTW the only reason there are not a lot of jewish casualties is because of Iron Sheild, which is getting a lot of those rockets before they land. So Hammas is killing less civilians because they can't kill them, not because they aren't trying.

If you can Siiad pleas help me understand?

 

[Tony Nitrous]

Apart from taking sides here.....
The US has been throwing $'s at the problem for decades. Huge amounts in the past,
Considerable amounts right up to date.

#1, outside of the US we hear various story's about your financial state,
can you really afford to be doing this and not looking after your own ?

#2, is having a friend there REALLY worth it, it's not 1940 where you need to
be looking over the fence with a mirror on a stick anymore ?

#3, do folk in the US really believe its a humanitarian issue, when you pick and chose
who you decide to help? The deaths in the Congo conflicts are close to the entire population
of Israel, how many billion did the US plough into fixing that ?

#4, the rest of the world see's the US playing its military and political games, being
very selective in who it does and doesn't help, with money that it really can't afford.

 

[fallenarch]

Well when you de-humanize people that's how we make it easy to kill them without guilt GNBRETT. So I can't say anyone is wrong, right or justified. But using the tactics they are using is stupid IMHO. Shooting rockets at Israel was bound to line them up for a spanking, so that doesn't seem like a very constructive strategy.

 

[busagreek]

that post made me LOL !!! how bout this? stop launching rockets from hospitals and schools and Israel won't fire back at the locations where the rockets ORIGINATED from.... did you think of that? no I didn't think so.

and WAR is when one side fires rockets at the other sides military installations or bases. how bout all the rockets Hamas launches into Israel every day that are UNGUIDED. but thats ok tho right? keep drinking the kool aid with Hamas and all the other terrorist organizations around the world.... smh

In my books ANYONE who kill inocent childs is TERRORIST....

 

[skydivr]

Brett, Saiid's a decent guy who would give the shirt off his back to any member of this board. While we may not agree on this subject, saying he 'sides with terrorists' might be a little strong. I assume that he sides with the innocent Palestineans that are caught in the middle of this, and unfortunatly, are taking the brunt of the pain. And for that I can't blame him.

Don't get me wrong, I HATE seeing innocent civilians on EITHER side getting killed - it's just I place more blame on Hamas. They could have prevented ALL of this from happening. Live by the sword, die by the sword. When fighting in an urban area, civilian casualties are a given; it's not possible not to have them and achieve your military goal - the best you can do is minimize them as much as possible. I was an Army Officer and I had to study this stuff in my professional education - unemotionally, logically how to kill the enemy. Take the emotion about the civilian casualties out of the equation and study it from a purely military operational aspect, and you'll see that the Israelis are the Pro's and Hamas is the bush league.

The fact is, there can't be combat operations without civilian losses. Look at the US in WWII, we firebombed Dresden and killed 6 figures (not to mention Hiroshima/Nagasaki) - but it was a world war - it was US or THEM. With Hamas' stated goal of the destruction of Israel and genocide of the Jewish people, I have to feel like they are in the same position fighting for their survival - and war is not about a fair fight...

Again, Hamas' needs to think about their people more than their hatred of the Jews and knock their stupid shait off - and the world would line up to help them. As long as they continue to call for the total destruction of Israel, this is what they are gonna get it it's, unfortunately, ALL ON THEM.

 

[jellyrug]

I suppose these kids just playing on the beach right next to Reuters reporters had just fired some rockets?

Photos Israeli strikes leave four children dead on Gaza beach - Page 1 | Firstpost

Guess they were future terrorists so they needed to go as well.

Blanca, without the emotion and debating who the bad guys are, I have a few questions?

If Hamas publicly states that it will not recognize the Jews in Israel as a nation, what is the solution and how is this situation fixed?

Here is a quote out of the 1988 Hamas charter.

"The Hamas Charter (or Covenant), issued in 1988, outlined the organization's position on many issues at the time. It identifies Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine and declares its members to be Muslims who "fear God and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors". The charter states "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories,[47] and the obliteration or dissolution of Israel."

Based on their objective to obliterate Israel, how is it possible to resolve this conflict?

Is Hamas trying to solicit world support by the current carnage in an attempt to win the back the Arab support they have lost, by sacrificing Palestinians?

Why do the Palestinians not stand up against Hamas, to save Gaza?

Gaza is just a small city, I believe 42 miles long, a concrete jungle. Why provoke reaction from a Giant if you have no chance of winning, only massacre to follow. Why not just surrender?

Do you think it is OK to support Jihad, or does it belong to radical terrorist groups?

Finally, if Israel had the same objective as Hamas, to obliterate the Palestinians, why don't they just demolish the whole of Gaza in a couple of weeks, rather than try to single out action against Hamas in one of the most densely populated cities in the world, with civilian casualties being unpreventable?

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Brett, Saiid's a decent guy who would give the shirt off his back to any member of this board. While we may not agree on this subject, saying he 'sides with terrorists' might be a little strong. I assume that he sides with the innocent Palestineans that are caught in the middle of this, and unfortunatly, are taking the brunt of the pain. And for that I can't blame him.

Don't get me wrong, I HATE seeing innocent civilians on EITHER side getting killed - it's just I place more blame on Hamas. They could have prevented ALL of this from happening. Live by the sword, die by the sword. When fighting in an urban area, civilian casualties are a given; it's not possible not to have them and achieve your military goal - the best you can do is minimize them as much as possible. I was an Army Officer and I had to study this stuff in my professional education - unemotionally, logically how to kill the enemy. Take the emotion about the civilian casualties out of the equation and study it from a purely military operational aspect, and you'll see that the Israelis are the Pro's and Hamas is the bush league.

The fact is, there can't be combat operations without civilian losses. Look at the US in WWII, we firebombed Dresden and killed 6 figures (not to mention Hiroshima/Nagasaki) - but it was a world war - it was US or THEM. With Hamas' stated goal of the destruction of Israel and genocide of the Jewish people, I have to feel like they are in the same position fighting for their survival - and war is not about a fair fight...

Again, Hamas' needs to think about their people more than their hatred of the Jews and knock their stupid shait off - and the world would line up to help them. As long as they continue to call for the total destruction of Israel, this is what they are gonna get it it's, unfortunately, ALL ON THEM.

Why do we keep talking about Hamas? Hamas is an org that it less than two decades old. What's the excuse for the previous decades of oppression and murder?
Keith we firebombed and carpet bombed our enemy during WWII because back then that was the best that was available. It was as precise as we could be to be able to even hit the correct city. Now Israel has the most precise weapons known to man and they still can't keep from killing innocents civilians. Shamefully it is and clearly murder. It is absolutely possible to strike precise targets and not hit a UN shelter whose coordinates had been given to them numerous times. The backlash is coming don't worry. The world sees Israel for what it is. A killer of children. Keep defending them if you like. That's your right and freedom. But don't get upset if we don't all lock step and march to Israel's tune.
From fifty years of oppression Hamas has grown out of it. None of you here would live under same circumstances.

Again like I said.......all those who have been there please raise their hands.....
The IDF generals son is right. If Israel doesn't like rockets they can decolonize Gaza. Until then they can expect resistance forever. They have accomplished nothing in this recent invasion, nothing. Have they diminished the ability to resist? Nope. Have they demoralized their enemy and taken the fight out of them? No. Have they decrease the number of soldiers Hamas has? Well nobody knows because we have yet to see a single dead one?

Like Obama is to gun sales Israel is to recruitment for the resistance. They will never get it.
You cannot defeat an idealogy with bombs.

And Brett you can GFY. One of the most anti gun folks here who does not support an Americans right to own guns and defend themselves supporting the obliteration of a people by a country is hypocrisy at its finest.
Show me where I said I side with Hamas? Show me where I said I was a Muslim which would not matter either as you paint with such a broad brush? Show me where I have ever said Israel doesn't have the right to exist?
You will however be able to find me say that after all the atrocities and events I posted I fully understand their will to fight.

It is NOT support for Hamas to be critical of Israel.
It is NOT anti Semitic to be critical of radicals leading Israel and their policies.

Folks keep repeating the party line and ignoring the facts I posted.
You wonder why rockets fall? Go back and read my posts, click the links, watch the videos and educate yourself on the history of that area.

JellyRug the people there support Hamas because they are the only ones standing up willing to call attn to their plight. Without this it would be business as usual, Destruction of homes, arrest and beating of kids, displament of thousands and construction of illegal settlements contrary to agreed upon accords.
If you don't consider this attempted obliteration I don't know what it? What is the military value in destroying an entire town?

All flat...for what? To displace the 20,000 that lived there PERMANENTLY

One thing for sure is that Israel never has to worry about a shortage of toilet paper as Brett will always be there to lick them clean no matter how messy it is.....

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

David Cameron and US condemn Gaza school air strikes | Mail Online

Thank God somebody's eyes have opened.

It came as a spokeswoman for David Cameron said Britain is reviewing all arms export licences to Israel in response to the Jewish state's escalating conflict with Hamas in Gaza.

State Department Condemns 'Disgraceful' Shelling Of U.N. School In Gaza

"The coordinates of the school, like all UN facilities in Gaza, have been repeatedly communicated to the Israel Defense Forces," State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in the statement. "We once again stress that Israel must do more to meet its own standards and avoid civilian casualties."

 

[jellyrug]

JellyRug the people there support Hamas because they are the only ones standing up willing to call attn to their plight. Without this it would be business as usual, Destruction of homes, arrest and beating of kids, displament of thousands and construction of illegal settlements contrary to agreed upon accords.
If you don't consider this attempted obliteration I don't know what it? What is the military value in destroying an entire town?

I believe Israel's objective is to destroy Hamas, not the Palestinians, I believe it is a security issue, tunnels and rockets? Hamas has the objective to attack civilians (Jihad). I know lots of Palestinian folks have died, but how do you eliminate an enemy mixed within the most densely populated city in the world, without casualties?

That is why we talk about Hamas.

Before it was Hamas, it was the PLO.

Before the PLO, I think the region was managed by Egypt.

Before Egypt, was it Great Britain?

Do you believe that if there was no security risk, no Hamas and the Palestinians were peaceful folks willing to live in harmony with the Israelis, there would still be oppression?

Let's hope it all works out, but as long as the Palestinians side with Hamas, who want control of the whole region this will continue. You missed a lot of my earlier questions?

BTW, I sit on the fence, have no ancestry connections to either, just using what I believe is common sense. I won't engage an enemy with force if I know I have no chance of winning and will sacrifice my own people in the process. Something I fail to understand?

 

[skydivr]

You have YET Saiid managed to explain how Israel can be vilified for shelling a school, when Hamas just fired rockets FROM IT'S COURTYARD....no matter how good their artillery is, it isn't THAT good to put one shell down the firing gun's tube....The UN can repeat the firing coordinates all they want, but if Hamas is sitting out front firing rockets from the same coordinates....guess what, it's no longer 'protected'....and, there is still SOME evidence that it wasn't from the Israelis, but an errant Hamas rocket....someone may end up with egg on their face.

Hamas - before them the PLO. Same bunch of punk-ass biotchs, different name...you are not going to get me to admire them as 'freedom fighters' when they resort to hiding behind women and children.

No, Israel may not be changing any perception of them, but they may not give a damn either...all they want is to take out those attacking them. If they REALLY, REALLY wanted to kill civilians, don't you think they'd be much better at it?