Counter steering vs. Trail braking

[Revolution]

i agree about not trying to add this into the mix. i'm still honing my skillz i have now.


the counter steering point mentioned about the tire facing the opposite direction makes sense, but i'd believe as stated it would slip at the extreme.


ride safe, "nudge" your limits forward sliiiiightly, enjoy.

 

[FloydV]

Trail braking: basically applying the front brakes deeper and later than mere mortals all the way to the apex of the corner. But here's the catch: as you're approaching the apex and lean angle is increasing, you HAVE TO START LETTING OFF THE BRAKES GRADUALLY. Gradually is the key because letting off too fast will upset the chassis and disrupt any available traction. Also, too much braking will decrease your front tire's ability to have traction and brake under those conditions, causing the front end to TUCK: or the handlebars to turn completely flush to the apex and lowsiding. Obviously, a new tire is better for trailbraking vs an older, worn tire with a lot of laps completed.

Street riders should NEVER practice this on the road (unless your name is Lamb

). It's mainly a technique used by trackday and roadracers to keep corner speeds high and getting through the corners as fast as possible. I use this technique 100% of the time at the track. I can shave off tenths of a second to 1 sec the better I apply this technique.

Now...Trail braking is also used with "backing it in" where the rider applies heavy braking combined with engine braking/slipping the clutch for rear wheel modulation. You'll notice the rear end "steps out" towards the outside of the corner. This style helps to square off the corners better, allowing quicker throttle application. I'm currently working on this technique but can only use it in certain turns (i.e. Turns 1 and 3 at Willow Springs Big track) where it's feasible. This technique can actually make or break your lap times.

Uhmm. This sounds like something best left to 20 year olds, and not 60 year old people. I'll just stick with what works for me. I get a lot of adrenalin out of my bus without pushing anything as far as you are talking about.

I was just curious. Hayden would no doubt take up the torch, but my wife would probably not appreciate my taking up the challenge.

 

[kennym4]

Trail braking: basically applying the  front brakes deeper and later than mere mortals all the way to the apex of the corner. But here's the catch: as you're approaching the apex and lean angle is increasing, you HAVE TO START LETTING OFF THE BRAKES GRADUALLY. Gradually is the key because letting off too fast will upset the chassis and disrupt any available traction. Also, too much braking will decrease your front tire's ability to have traction and brake under those conditions, causing the front end to TUCK: or the handlebars to turn completely flush to the apex and lowsiding. Obviously, a new tire is better for trailbraking vs an older, worn tire with a lot of laps completed.

Street riders should NEVER practice this on the road (unless your name is Lamb  

 ). It's mainly a technique used by trackday and roadracers to keep corner speeds high and getting through the corners as fast as possible. I use this technique 100% of the time at the track. I can shave off tenths of a second to 1 sec the better I apply this technique.

Now...Trail braking is also used with "backing it in" where the rider applies heavy braking combined with engine braking/slipping the clutch for rear wheel modulation. You'll notice the rear end "steps out" towards the outside of the corner. This style helps to square off the corners better, allowing quicker throttle application. I'm currently working on this technique but can only use it in certain turns (i.e. Turns 1 and 3 at Willow Springs Big track) where it's feasible. This technique can actually make or break your lap times.

Uhmm. This sounds like something best left to 20 year olds, and not 60 year old people. I'll just stick with what works for me.  I get a lot of adrenalin out of my bus without pushing anything as far as you are talking about.

I was just curious. Hayden would no doubt take up the torch, but my wife would probably not appreciate my taking up the challenge.

That's why he said

"Street riders should NEVER practice this on the road " !!

I never thought that "trail braking" took the place of "counter steering", But was asking HOW would braking help with the actual turning, like what was said in Sport Rider ?

 

[kennym4]

Just checked out what others had to say about this, at Suzukihayabusa.org, and a few of the people there went to Freddie's school. (he was the guy who takes the students around the track on the back of his bike, to show them how braking effects your turning- I wasn't sure in my first post) And from the ones who went to his school, it did sound like they were saying (to me anyway) they use one or the other, "counter steering" OR "trail braking" ?

 

[Busasweety]

I don't like getting into opinionated subjects (as I type my wife laughes with a smile and says yeah right!  )

We took the 2 day course with Keith Code at VIR last year
it seems from what I read that Kieth and Freddie have difference of opinions.
Everbody learns something one way and becomes natural or whatever. All I know is we both rode for 15 - 20 years before that course and and had only 3500miles on our Busa's when we got home from the class we completely rode different!!

In this article Keith actually admits info of spencers findings and actually tests it!!
cruise the site and see the equipment he has designed just for teaching you actual skills with no other input distractions !!
The lean bike was the best thing I ever learned on. It keeps you "there" so you feel and learn what you feel and how to do it etc. No where can you learn that concentrated info on the street !!!!

http://superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

ps: with our techniq touching the brakes at any piont after commitment into the turn totally upsets the handleing of the bike !!

 

[gtrpimp76]

Everyone should learn at the pace they're comfortable at. Countersteering is a way to disrupt what is called the gyroscopic effect that keeps cycles upright at speed, or else we would all have high speed wooble without gyro effect. In order to go through turns, yes, you should countersteer. press right to go right (wheel turns slightly left in doing so), and press left to go left (wheel turns slightly right doing so). When I attended the New Racers School at Willow Springs and the one with WERA at a CA Speedway trackday with Fastrack riders, they talk about countersteering briefly but had more emphasis with body postioning (hang off, keeping your back in the same plane as the bike, pressure on inside peg, looking through the corners, tucking as close to the windscreen as possible to weight the front, etc). Countersteering is one of those things that should be as basic as walking and talking. When I talked to Jason Pridmore about body positioning and hanging off, it's basically to assist countersteering especially when going through high speed turns (i.e. Turn 1 at Miller Motorsports Park or the Attitudes and Turns 8 and 9 at Big Track Willow Springs). Countersteering alone won't get it done at triple digit speeds because of gyroscopic effect. But countersteering with body positioning will. Watch ALL of the MotoGP racers, AMA Superbike and WSBK racers. They all hang off to some degree to assist with cornering.

Trail braking doesn't help much with tip in much. It's more about keeping up corner speed and is a pretty advanced technique. Between the two, I would advise on working on countersteering. But it should be one of those things that automatic by now that none of here shouldn't be thinking about it too much. However, when you do turn a motorcycle (other than the parking lot) at speed, try to visualize what your hands are doing. I'm sure they're countersteering already that you don't have to think about it.

 

[Wag]

I've noticed over the last three years that if you set up the Busa correctly at or just before the turn's entrance, the bike will "float" perfectly all the way around the turn with no further input from the rider. All you have to do is enjoy the easy sweep.

What that tells me is that the pursuit of the perfect turn is a pursuit of balance. Balance of your throttle with your brakes with lateral seating position on the bike, etc. etc. If everything is set up properly from the very beginning of the turn, the turn is accomplished primarily by the bike if you'll allow it to do its thing for you. If you find yourself fighting to keep the bike on a line, you missed that turn. You'll get it right on the next one!

--Wag--

 

[Revolution]

is [extreme] counter steering the reason most spill?

i'm talkin' "unbalancing" the bike.

 

[Wag]

is [extreme] counter steering the reason most spill?

i'm talkin' "unbalancing" the bike.

Probably has more to do with not being smooth. Even the most perfect technique must be executed smoothly, otherwise, it's not going to work.

--Wag--

 

[Tufbusa]

I've noticed over the last three years that if you set up the Busa correctly at or just before the turn's entrance, the bike will "float" perfectly all the way around the turn with no further input from the rider.  All you have to do is enjoy the easy sweep.

--Wag--

When you set your bike up to "Float" through the corner with no input, this means you are coasting through the corner. If you use this technique on the track, or on the street for that matter, every swinging d!ck behind you will pass you with ease!

 

[Wag]

I've noticed over the last three years that if you set up the Busa correctly at or just before the turn's entrance, the bike will "float" perfectly all the way around the turn with no further input from the rider. All you have to do is enjoy the easy sweep.

--Wag--

When you set your bike up to "Float" through the corner with no input, this means you are coasting through the corner. If you use this technique on the track, or on the street for that matter, every swinging d!ck behind you will pass you with ease!

I wasn't 100% clear. When I said, "no input," I also meant you don't let off the gas any more than you add throttle.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, it wasn't about racing to begin with, just about basic cornering on the streets or in the canyons.

As I keep saying, I'm no expert. One thing I do know for sure, however, is that track techniques don't always apply to the street and vice-versa. A little crossover here and there is about all you can hope for.

If you go on the track and give the same "input" you do on the streets, you're right. You're going to get passed by every Tom, **** and Harry on the track!!

--Wag--

 

[Busasweety]

I think what he means "float" is smooth run, NOT "Coast"
coasting a corner is almost as bad as hitting the brakes.....it mess's up the geometrics of the bikes balance and shock input...."turn the throttle"
try taking a turn and halfway thru let off the gas .....the bike gets heavy and hard to move it changes everything !!!!

as wag stated when he sets up the busa just before the turn the bike floats etc.....
What he or you don't realize is before entering the turn, regulate your speed.. brake etc. after that he picked his turning point (commitment point) regulated turn anlge (to meet apex of turn)and from there (follow along... your still at the beginning of the turn) now throttle up !!
as you throttle up the bike simply... sets ..engages..and completes the very input you put into it from the begining........which is the reward of following these steps and you FLOAT thru the turns because all the correct decsions were made in the 1st stage of the turn process.

heck theres times I have takin a turn and let go of the left bar and only holding the right bar with thumb and index finger to keep throttle goin and thats what I call FLOATING.....now...... try to pass me !!!!

 

[Vstrom]

Everyone should learn at the pace they're comfortable at. Countersteering is a way to disrupt what is called the gyroscopic effect that keeps cycles upright at speed, or else we would all have high speed wooble without gyro effect. In order to go through turns, yes, you should countersteer. press right to go right (wheel turns slightly left in doing so), and press left to go left (wheel turns slightly right doing so). When I attended the New Racers School at Willow Springs and the one with WERA at a CA Speedway trackday with Fastrack riders, they talk about countersteering briefly but had more emphasis with body postioning (hang off, keeping your back in the same plane as the bike, pressure on inside peg, looking through the corners, tucking as close to the windscreen as possible to weight the front, etc). Countersteering is one of those things that should be as basic as walking and talking. When I talked to Jason Pridmore about body positioning and hanging off, it's basically to assist countersteering especially when going through high speed turns (i.e. Turn 1 at Miller Motorsports Park or the Attitudes and Turns 8 and 9 at Big Track Willow Springs). Countersteering alone won't get it done at triple digit speeds because of gyroscopic effect. But countersteering with body positioning will. Watch ALL of the MotoGP racers, AMA Superbike and WSBK racers. They all hang off to some degree to assist with cornering.

Trail braking doesn't help much with tip in much. It's more about keeping up corner speed and is a pretty advanced technique. Between the two, I would advise on working on countersteering. But it should be one of those things that automatic by now that none of here shouldn't be thinking about it too much. However, when you do turn a motorcycle (other than the parking lot) at speed, try to visualize what your hands are doing. I'm sure they're countersteering already that you don't have to think about it.

Well said gtrpimp76

It is amazing how well the human mind works, we countersteer and don't even know it.

I believe that the only way to turn a motorcycle is to countersteer it, that makes it an absolute, not a "technique". All other "techniques" only serve to help or hinder countersteering.

Overcoming the gyro effect gets increasingly harder as speed rises, hanging off,weighting pegs, and trail braking all help to get, and keep the bike leaned over, the faster you go the more help you need.

This desciption is pretty good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

Vstrom

 

[Wag]

There you go, busasweety, gettin' all scientific on us!

--Wag--

 

[gtrpimp76]

is [extreme] counter steering the reason most spill?

i'm talkin' "unbalancing" the bike.

Not necessarily. Too much (trail)braking through a corner that overwhelms the front tire's total traction required along with a lot of lean angle, causing the front to tuck, is the most common among racers. For track day guys, it's going through the corner off throttle and not having any load on the tires and chassis geometry (via no trail braking or throttle application) combined with lean angle. The front will get real light and also tuck, causing a lowside.

If you see pics of racers like Capirossi, Hayden, Rossi, Spies, you can see them using lots of countersteering at corner exit to balance the rear wheel spinning out, smoking and sliding (a flat-track and motocross style). So countersteering doesn't necessarily cause you to crash.

 

[FloydV]

I don't like getting into opinionated subjects (as I type my wife laughes with a smile and says yeah right! )

We took the 2 day course with Keith Code at VIR last year
it seems from what I read that Kieth and Freddie have difference of opinions.
Everbody learns something one way and becomes natural or whatever. All I know is we both rode for 15 - 20 years before that course and and had only 3500miles on our Busa's when we got home from the class we completely rode different!!

In this article Keith actually admits info of spencers findings and actually tests it!!
cruise the site and see the equipment he has designed just for teaching you actual skills with no other input distractions !!
The lean bike was the best thing I ever learned on. It keeps you "there" so you feel and learn what you feel and how to do it etc. No where can you learn that concentrated info on the street !!!!

http://superbikeschool.com/machinery/no-bs-machine.php

ps: with our techniq touching the brakes at any piont after commitment into the turn totally upsets the handleing of the bike !!

Thank you for the link. The writer certainly seems convinced that counter-steering is the only way anyone really steers a bike.

I am not so certain. Someone pointed out a rider whose name won't come to me (he has won innumerable MotoGP liter bike races, and people either like him or hate him). This person always does his final victory lap by standing on the pegs and running the course one more time. Standing on the pegs would seem to remove any handlebar steering.

I always feel compelled to lean my body even though I am counter-steering. Without my leaning, counter-steering by itself seems to initiate a lean that I want to fight. Like someone else leaned the bike. I'm sure it's mental, but if I lean as I counter-steer, I feel like I'm the one in control. Goofy I know, but 40 years of doing that is hard to stop.

Trail braking, at least at speed, is just too much to try for me. If I get it wrong, I trash the bike, and probably me too. I wish there was a good video of the various methods that people are so fervent about.

 

[Revolution]

ever since i read Kieth Code's [spellcheck] book "Twist of the Wrist II" i find i'm turning better. i shift my weight over some and now that i think of it the bike seems to turn itself [without countersteering]. as posted above if i'm going a little faster the bike "needs" some input aside from the body weight shift.

 

[Wag]

Keep working on those techniques and pretty soon, you'll find you can come down a twisty mountain road with no hands at 35 mph and have no problems with it whatsoever. I like to tease the cruisers by doing this when they're holding on for dear life!

--Wag--

 

[DaCol.]

i'd believe as stated it would slip at the extreme.

Hate to be the Bearer of BAD NEWS

, but PAST the extreme they ALL slide out from under you (words from EXPERIENCE

). The Front first sometimes

, the Rear sometimes  

and BOTH at the sametime sometimes  

. All are exciting, but NOT ADVISED  

 

[Luvanicebum]

I just don't think this much, my brain tells my muscles what to do. So, I go fast all the time.