Discussion 3 - Killing a US citizen

captain

Dis in my way!
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It's been a few weeks since we had one of these good discussions... Remember... No name calling, don't make your comments personal... Keep the discussion factual.

How does President Obama have the right to target for killing a US citizen such as Anwar al-Awlaki?

That’s a good question.

As of now, the administration’s legal justification is unclear.

In 2010, then-White House press secretary Robert Gibbs was asked about how “human rights lawyers were challenging the administration’s assertion that an American citizen can be targeted for killing overseas. Should Americans worry that if they go overseas, their own government could target them to be killed?â€￾

Said Gibbs: “Let’s be clear about Anwar al-Awlaki, okay? The United States hasn’t decided that Anwar al-Awlaki is aligned with a terrorist group. Anwar al-Awlaki has in videos cast his lot with al Qaeda and its extremist allies. Anwar al-Awlaki is acting as a regional commander for al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. So let’s not take a tourist that might visit Italy overseas and equate him to somebody who has on countless times in video pledged to uphold and support the violent and murderous theories of al Qaeda.â€￾

Jameel Jaffer, the deputy legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union, today said that his organization believes “that the targeted killing program violates both U.S. and international law. As we’ve seen today, this is a program under which American citizens far from any battlefield can be executed by their own government without judicial process, and on the basis of standards and evidence that are kept secret not just from the public but from the courts. The government’s authority to use lethal force against its own citizens should be limited to circumstances in which the threat to life is concrete, specific, and imminent. It is a mistake to invest the President — any President — with the unreviewable power to kill any American whom he deems to present a threat to the country.â€￾

After Awlaki was designated a “specially designated global terroristâ€￾ by the Treasury Department, it became illegal for attorneys to represent him without permission from the Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control.

The ACLU and Center for Constitutional Rights were denied the license to represent Awlaki.

The groups sued the Treasury Department and OFAC to grant them the license to represent al-Awlaki. They sought to challenge the White House assertion that it had the constitutional right to kill Awlaki.

In September 2010, the Justice Department filed court papers seeking that the case be dismissed: “To litigate any aspect of this case would require the disclosure of highly sensitive national security information concerning alleged military and intelligence actions overseas,â€￾ the Justice department asserted.

And US Judge John Bates threw the case out.

On December 7, 2010 Assistant Attorney General for the Civil Division Tony West said, “We are pleased with the court’s ruling, people need to remember that this really was an unprecedented case in which plaintiffs were asking a court to review military decisions for the leader of a foreign terrorist organization and as we said when we filed this case, if Anwar al-Awlaki wants to access to our court system he ought to surrender to authorities and be accountable for his actions. So were pleased with the legal ruling the court has issued and were pleased that the court agreed with us that it did not need to reach state secrets in order to dispose of this case.â€￾

Needless to say, this unprecedented ruling has been severely criticized – and all the more so today, with the assassination having been carried out.

Writing in Salon today, Glenn Greenwald writes, “What’s most striking about this is not that the U.S. Government has seized and exercised exactly the power the Fifth Amendment was designed to bar (‘No person shall be deprived of life without due process of law’), and did so in a way that almost certainly violates core First Amendment protections (questions that will now never be decided in a court of law). What’s most amazing is that its citizens will not merely refrain from objecting, but will stand and cheer the U.S. Government’s new power to assassinate their fellow citizens, far from any battlefield, literally without a shred of due process from the U.S. Government. Many will celebrate the strong, decisive, Tough President’s ability to eradicate the life of Anwar al-Awlaki — including many who just so righteously condemned those Republican audience members as so terribly barbaric and crass for cheering Governor Perry’s execution of scores of serial murderers and rapists — criminals who were at least given a trial and appeals and the other trappings of due process before being killed.â€￾
 
Doug, I think the fact that he was a US citizen was irrelevant.The guy was an extremist,promoted extremist ideas,promoted terror on American targets and our interests at home and abroad,he preached extremism and was arrogant/proud of it.Doesnt matter to me where he was from,he tried to unite extremist all over the world against our way of life and in my opinion,needed to be eliminated.I have many Muslim friends,and none of them think like this guy did,he had an agenda....
 
Now that is a very intresting thought... Due process is a right of all citizens...to let the goverment decide when you have voided those rights without representation... Very very dangerous ground here. the us goverment shall not be given a "license to kill"
 
he was a terrorist , he said he was a terrorist , and he wanted to live the life of a terrorist , which is short if you mess with the U.S. !! Doesn't matter where he was born !
 
They killed him in Yemen ??? I am ok with it. You don't have your rights as a US citizen in foreign soil anyway.. Seems like the CIA is a lot sloppier than they used to be. People used to just disappear without a trace. :whistle:
 
He made it very clear how he felt about the US and its citizens. He promoted terrorist action against the US and its interests. I would say he was no more a US citizen than Bin Laden and should have been and was dealt with in the same fashion.
A terrorist is a terrorist. Race, creed, color nor religion has any bearing. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Posted at 150 mph via Tapatalk
 
What's the difference between aiming violance against your fellow countrymen from far away, or down the street?

Down the street it would be a bullet coming the opposite direction from yours. Far away it would be a drone.
 
Hooray. Hallelujah. Keep up the good work. Let me shake the trigger mans hand.
Just a few thoughts that entered my mind after reading the article.
Now if the trigger man knocks on my door...well...2nd amendment is all I can say about that.
Do they have 2nd amendment in Yemen? Hmmmm

Big wheels keep on turning,..... ......

......
Does your conscience bother you. Tell the truth........
.....

Keep it simple.

I love my Busa!



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My view as a 19yr US Army soldier with 6 deployments i see it as this. The lines;"..I will defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, both foriegn and domestic,...." are the words every soldier says in the 'Oath of Enlistment'.....They are the groundwork for our services, and to the 1% of the country who serve or have served, these words do mean something. The point in which Mr. Al-Awiaki decided that he was at war with America and was training people to be at war with America he effectively renounced his American citizenship and he further acted in a manner that identified him as an enemy of the American people. He was the operational arm of al Qaeda therefore, he incurred the proposed penalty of all war....He chose his path, knew the consequences, and he was killed. The Oval office was authorized by Congress to give the order to capture or kill this guy. We as taxpayers have spent the money to have these tools of war....IMO money well spent. So who's the next PUC on the list.......oh yeah Al Zawahiri.
 
Alright here is my take on this whole thing. If he was a U.S. citizen then no I don't believe he should have been "assassinated" without due process of law. I don't necessarily agree with what he is doing don't get me wrong, and personally im glad he is dead(1 less to worry about). But from the standpoint of a Citizen I don't want someone to just decide to off me either because they don't agree with what I say or think.

Since this has happened does this mean the Government can kill those people without due process for kidnapping that make ransom tapes? NO. Yes it is the same thing. Threatening the life of a U.S. Citizen for something else.(Money Power etc..)

Now on the other hand and I am not 100% sure on this so correct me if im wrong. Since he aligned himself with Al-Queda and basically waged war on the U.S. does that not revoke his Citizenship of the U.S.? If that is the case then the Government did the world a favor and did not over step their bounds as he would now be considered a hostile enemy not a citizen. He would have no more rights than anyone else would in open war with the U.S.

So it is a thin line if it was right or not. If he was no longer considered a citizen due to the open and known "war" between Al-Queda and the U.S. then kill his arse. If he was still considered a citizen then the courts should have ruled.

This is my stand right or wrong either way.
Joseph Marble
Lavinrac
 
He was an American Ctizen when he was killed before he was brought to trial and convicted in a US court of law. "Without Due Process of the Law".......:rulez:

I know it SUCKS because I personally would have liked to be the guy that pulled the Trigger but we have a Constitution that we are supposed to adhere to as fellow Americans. If we start breaking our own Constitution just because we think it was the right thing to do. Then were does it Stop ?

Robert
 
I'm sorry about all of the guys who are soft in the head on this issue. When you do the crap this guy is doing it doesn't matter what nationality you are. You are officially an enemy combatant. How you guys can confuse this logic with he is an American citzen and therefore protected by the Constitutional rights afforded to all citzens is beyond me. The gov't isn't interested in "offing" it's citzens while in Jamaica for soming some weed or hooking up with a call girl in Paris. So drop these lame arse statements of Constitutional rights. You wage war on America or any country and you will spend the rest of your days looking over your shoulder. The only pity I think is that they should've let the Seals put a bullet or knife in him at close range and cheap instead of wasting 100k on a missle.
 
He was an American Ctizen when he was killed before he was brought to trial and convicted in a US court of law. "Without Due Process of the Law".......:rulez:

I know it SUCKS because I personally would have liked to be the guy that pulled the Trigger but we have a Constitution that we are supposed to adhere to as fellow Americans. If we start breaking our own Constitution just because we think it was the right thing to do. Then were does it Stop ?

Robert

Robert this is not directed at you personally. I quoted you as an example only!

If anyone that feels this way has someone come into your house and threaten you, CALL 911! DO NOT DEFEND YOURSELF OR YOUR FAMILY! That criminal(terrorist) deserves due process of law and trial by his/her peers.



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I think if you read the constitution and all it ammendments you will find there are loop holes in there for pieces of garbage like him. He renounced his citizenship when he commited treason and waged war on the states. My only regret is his death was too swift. He should have been tortured first.
 
He was in another country leading others to kill Americans. Citizen/terrorist, makes no never mind to me. Dad told me there are no rules in fighting.

Do anything you can to win.
Al-quaki got his due. IMHO
 
Off with his head! No need for due process for terrorists...American citizens or not.

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I too thought joining a foreign military renounces your citizenship by default. Let alone one whose mission is to cause any damage to the U.S.

That being said it made him an enemy combatant.

Of course if I may play devils advocate, what is to stop them from abusing this? Could it turn into something resembling Stalin's purge? True they my just be looking at the worst case senerio, but it does require contemplation.



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Anwar al-Awlaki was a very extreme, radical militant and frankly I am glad he is dead instead of captured. The statement below sums it up nice in my opinion.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.....

As far as sentencing him to death before a trial, I think in a situation like this where he is the number one terrorism target, skip the trial and save us some cash. He was not the number one target for selling bad tasting cupcakes.
 
The terrorists must get a a HUGE laugh as we go into convolutions of self-blame because we did this. So, we should have let him go when we had the chance, and sent him an email asking to give himself up so we could try him? He had clearly stated that he was an enemy of the United States, and actively participated in multiple terrorists acts BY HIS OWN ADMISSION. We had a chance to kill him, not CAPTURE him, and we probably prevented him helping kill MORE AMERICANS, and we are worried about HIS civil rights? Jeez people grow a set - we are our own worst enemy.

So, if he was in Afghanistan in a firefight, we shouldn't shoot him, we should risk good American lives to capture him alive? To spend MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of tax dollars to defend him?

In the US, if we could catch him, we should. But killing him is plenty good by me. People are getting realllly lost in the weeds and missing the point - WE GOT THAT SOB. These are the same fools that thought we should try Osama Bin Laden....

Every time we reach out and 'touch someone', these people GET THE MESSAGE that there WILL be Justice, "Frontier Justice" - they clearly understand that, but they scoff and are fully prepared to take advantage of our own legal system against us.
 
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