Fogging vs Spraybar

[Mr Bogus]

naw, no need to pony up any $$

just setup a bike for a night at the track and start testing... some stuff works a lot does not... you really can not even dyno stuff like this and get much out of it..

props for the work... just want to see more than pictures of spray patterns

I just out of experience take performance gain claims with a grain of salt when offered up with a bill of sale.. just old time racer that has spent a lot of $$ trying to find spare ponies..

think that might be why I am having so much fun with track days... no need to have extra hp or better anything.. it is about besting yourself, not the machine or the guy next to you.. is a lot of fun

 

[Mr Bogus]

now build some annular discharge rings... (something that in theory should work well)

 

[B@DA$$08BUS@]

Fan Spray Nozzle

Fan Spray with the filter

Underneath the filter after spraying.Remember,this is a static test. Icing will probably not occur while air is passing through the filter.

Wouldnt spraying through filter hugely increase the temp of the Nitrous, versus not using filter, or directly spraying the V-stacks?

 

[Gixx1300R]

now build some annular discharge rings... (something that in theory should work well)

Already done. There is a plate system that sprays in this manner.

 

[Gixx1300R]

Wouldnt spraying through filter hugely increase the temp of the Nitrous, versus not using filter, or directly spraying the V-stacks?

Yes the temp is increase b the incoming airflow.

 

[Mr Bogus]

Already done. There is a plate system that sprays in this manner. It doesnt work very well.

I know, also tried was a "stepped" annular discharge ring.. was designed to pick up the air velocity just prior to picking up the nitrous load.. (did it to work with an annular discharge alcohol carb, wasted a full week on that mess)

I found the best solution was to take and uninstall all the solenoids, relays, tanks hoses and hobbs switches... put a 14/71 and load the pig full of nitromethane.... problem solved...

 

[Gixx1300R]

now build some annular discharge rings... (something that in theory should work well)

Needs some work.

- MVI 0460[/url]

 

[B@DA$$08BUS@]

Yes the temp is increase b the incoming airflow.

So wouldnt you want it to stay as cold as possible(until it and air collide) without the help of the filter warming it????

 

[Mr Bogus]

Needs some work.

[URL="

- MVI 0460[/URL]

We used a 1" spacer plate (that looks like a spray bar plate that was modded?)

the plate was actually two pieces that sandwiched together so that the discharge port rings could be changed to try different angles and diameters..

although they worked, they did not work any better than the fogger nozzles..

 

[Gixx1300R]

We used a 1" spacer plate (that looks like a spray bar plate that was modded?)

the plate was actually two pieces that sandwiched together so that the discharge port rings could be changed to try different angles and diameters..

although they worked, they did not work any better than the fogger nozzles..

- Zex Perimeter Plate[/url]

 

[Mr Bogus]

[URL="

- Zex Perimeter Plate[/URL]

nice plate

we were working with a 4 hole plate (slightly better torque curve down stairs)

I used have a lot of fun working on this stuff... now it just makes me tired..

 

[Draco1340]

Just to stir the pot a bit, I'm not a big fan of spray bars. After previously explaining the advantage of spray bars, this is the big disadvantage.

If you progressively spray your nitrous with a controller (or eventually with Petrik's flash software) the nitrous solenoid is pulsing about 5 times per second, but the intake valve is opening and closing almost 100 times per second. The fuel injector is also opening and closing 100 times per second. What does that mean... well for a dry system the result is that the flow of nitrous can pulse or vary by quite a bit depending on how far the solenoid is from the nozzle exit, but the motor doesn't know this. Some engine cycles it opens the valve and gets more nitrous. Some cycles it gets less. On average, your O2 sensor might think its dead on, but in actuallity, the motor is going lean / rich / lean / rich 5 times a second but averagin out in the tail pipe. This causes the occasional detonation and big crank vibration problem due to the enourmous difference in cylinder pressure from cycle to cycle across the 4 cylinder. I ran a single cyclinder (low RPM)development dyno lab at WPI in the Eighties and had an opportunity to measure and photograph this phenomina. Kind of scary. This is one of the reasons why nitrous can be hard on motors EVEN IF you think you have the perfect tune.

This is not a problem with properly designed air box fogging, and its not a problem if you don't control the nitrous with a progressive, and less of a problem if you run a wet system.

...stir the pot a bit...

 

[Draco1340]

That being said, I am going to have to switch over to a spray bar or multi-stage fogger / bar hybrid system this year because I've gotten as much out of my box fogger system as I think I can. Some thought is being put into how to reduce the pulsing.

 

[jeepinocala]

Gixxer I sure hope you are charging these guy's oh and I would call ahead just to make sure they have enough asprin on the shelf. I have been in several situations like this where people want your information/design and testing work and they just dont seem to understand you did not do it for them to have for free. Guy's get a hint I am witness to one of his ideas being stollen I have seen several posts that I replyed "thats gixxer's idea?" I am thinking of modifying my motor do you think suzuki will just be nice and go ahead and send me their prints, files for testing, and some detailed pictures?

 

[Mr Bogus]

Gixxer I sure hope you are charging these guy's oh and I would call ahead just to make sure they have enough asprin on the shelf. I have been in several situations like this where people want your information/design and testing work and they just dont seem to understand you did not do it for them to have for free. Guy's get a hint I am witness to one of his ideas being stollen I have seen several posts that I replyed "thats gixxer's idea?" I am thinking of modifying my motor do you think suzuki will just be nice and go ahead and send me their prints, files for testing, and some detailed pictures?

in racing.. .ideas get thrown all over the place and in reality? very very few are actually "New and original"

The spray bar for instance is something we did 15 years ago.. ours however had individual jets in front of every discharge port (used hilborn "pills") I learned about pill design as well.. just a simple chamfer or clean up of the entrance to the pill can change flow drastically.. (is why we went with a commercially available orifice)

Like I saw a post about someone that "indexed" their sparkplugs ... I bet I have not seen that in 10 years.. (well mentioned)

I developed an air powered/timed shifter system and sold it to drag racers.. it was nothing new but it used John Guest fittings and took maybe 4 minutes to install.. My idea came from the timer system used in our nitro funny car... (NHRA legal stuff)

Any guy worried about "Idea theft" should not post anything up at all about their work... it goes directly to patent lawyer with the obligatory 5-10G

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery really does apply.. I have been looking for a picture of our bar (and is so similar in appearance, you would think they are copied from each other) Racers go to great extremes to keep what they think works secret unless they are trying to make a buck out of it.. often, that $$ factor brings over-engineered and really pointless stuff to market..

Abandoned our "spray bar" due to weight and complexity individual port nozzles were easier to work with in our application..

I worked along side a guy in Mesa Az at Brown and Brown cheverolet... he took a long existing modification we made to main bearings and had it patented... son of a gun.. we been doing this how long and someone patents it? (cut a couple relief grooves to dump oil crank case side instead of up against the GM rope seal for the rear main)

George coins it the "Michaels Bearing" and retired shortly after... Then the guy next to me designs and sells that stupid looking PVC pipe cutter that you see everywhere.. Irv retires as well... dang where do they come from...

 

[jeepinocala]

in racing.. .ideas get thrown all over the place and in reality? very very few are actually "New and original"

Any guy worried about "Idea theft" should not post anything up at all about their work... it goes directly to patent lawyer with the obligatory 5-10G

Question what do you do for a living?

 

[frisbee]

I will be looking into getting your bar as soon as my motor is built this spring

 

[Draco1340]

Gixxer I sure hope you are charging these guy's oh and I would call ahead just to make sure they have enough asprin on the shelf. I have been in several situations like this where people want your information/design and testing work and they just dont seem to understand you did not do it for them to have for free. Guy's get a hint I am witness to one of his ideas being stollen I have seen several posts that I replyed "thats gixxer's idea?" I am thinking of modifying my motor do you think suzuki will just be nice and go ahead and send me their prints, files for testing, and some detailed pictures?

??? Last I knew this was an information sharing post. Not a classified post. Technical discussions on how to improve the inherint problems associate with running nitrous should help benefit its development, but that doesn't seem to be what I'm hearing. If anyone is implying that I'm lifting stuff then I guess I'll just shut up from now on. I made my first spray bar 25 years ago, and by the sounds of things, others have done similar things well before that.

 

[Mr Bogus]

in racing.. .ideas get thrown all over the place and in reality? very very few are actually "New and original"

Any guy worried about "Idea theft" should not post anything up at all about their work... it goes directly to patent lawyer with the obligatory 5-10G

Question what do you do for a living?

Well I got in to the garage biz in 1975 and was dumped into the racing world about the same time.. Learned door slammers and moved on to bikes for a couple years before going to Top Alcohol cars (boss at the time had one).. We ended up having the first 200mph TAD at Denver.. (Arizona Charger, quad turbo car) Then I drag raced my bike and street car also.. Went to drag boat racing and Nitro Funnycar/Fuel altered racing.(match racers) I have been very fortunate to meet and work with some of the fastest guys around.. even if it was only washing parts at times.. I did what I had to in order to get in the door..

One day racing turned in to work...(only took 20+ years)

Got out of garage biz, trained truck drivers (cause it looked fun to do) and now I am a IT guy that is having fun with track days... Not sure what I really "do" for a living however... play? work? sort of feels the same at times..

 

[Mr Bogus]

??? Last I knew this was an information sharing post. Not a classified post. Technical discussions on how to improve the inherint problems associate with running nitrous should help benefit its development, but that doesn't seem to be what I'm hearing. If anyone is implying that I'm lifting stuff then I guess I'll just shut up from now on. I made my first spray bar 25 years ago, and by the sounds of things, others have done similar things well before that.

dang you old as I am... geezer....

and FWIW... the poly lines and I are old nemesis.... I do not trust them nor would I use them on anything I raced. (except for C02 or compressed air).. I hate fire (spent time in burn unit as patient) and they strike me as trouble waiting to happen..