Here comes the tariffs.......

[jellyrug]

One can also summarize that if an Administration values cooperation, a good rapport and a healthy trade relationship for the foreseeable future, there would be no tariffs.

Does that mean Biden did not value cooperation, a good rapport and a healthy trade relationship? Also every President we have ever had? Trade barriers against the US have been there for a long time, and the US reduced their barriers including a lot more than only tariffs. And it is decades of our own fault?

History of tariffs in the United States - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Red05]

Does that mean Biden did not value cooperation, a good rapport and a healthy trade relationship? Also every President after the 2nd world war? Trade barriers against the US have been there for a long time, including a lot more than only tariffs. And it is decades of our own fault?

If you’re denying that Trump has started a world trade war and damaged the dynamics of said system, so be it. The consideration of anything besides dollars and cents seems to be outside of your abilities, and I commend you for sticking to your guns though in this case I consider it a failure on your part.
I could post endless links of people that agree with me but I won’t bother because this never ending conversation, and I use the term loosely, is the opposite of productive.
By the way, I am not a Biden supporter or admirer. I basically like 99% of the human population better than Trump.

 

[jellyrug]

If you’re denying that Trump has started a world trade war and damaged the dynamics of said system, so be it. The consideration of anything besides dollars and cents seems to be outside of your abilities, and I commend you for sticking to your guns though in this case I consider it a failure on your part.
I could post endless links of people that agree with me but I won’t bother because this never ending conversation, and I use the term loosely, is the opposite of productive.

I just posted history, no opinions of others. History showing how the middle class has lost ground to trade practices and gains for other countries. History is factual, it really happened, it is in the past. History is not emotional.

We buy a ton of lumber from Canada, cheaper because it is grown on government land with government control. Trump has now changed that, we will have to buy local, grown on private land, more expensive but fair trade.

I’m curious, have you ever run a business, or are you just a spectator yelling from the stands?

I explained this twice, won’t try again. You support Canadians working in America with no barriers, however Americans may not work in Canada. Fair?

If I did not know you, I would have thought you are a poster of propaganda typing somewhere from China.

 

[Red05]

I’m curious, have you ever run a business, or are you just a spectator yelling from the stands?

Just a lowly spectator

We buy a ton of lumber from Canada, cheaper because it is grown on public land with government control. Trump has now changed that, we will have to buy local, grown on private land, more expensive but fair trade.

Again, dollars and cents. I realize that’s the only language you speak. Your customers will pay more, life in the fast lane. You’ve said your profit margin will grow, so why wouldn’t you be in favor? Are going to say that you care about the consumer, the lowly spectator?
I totally realize Trump is claiming to be playing the long game. Within that same realization I know he lies incessantly. He’s playing with his easy bake oven at the expense of everyone including those that support him.

 

[jellyrug]

Just a lowly spectator

Again, dollars and cents. I realize that’s the only language you speak. Your customers will pay more, life in the fast lane. You’ve said your profit margin will grow, so why wouldn’t you be in favor?

I never said my margins will grow. I said they will remain the same unless there is competitive business forcing to me reduce them.

You probably want to do a bit of study on the difference between mark up margin and profit margin, but since you don’t think in money terms I guess it is not necessary.

I can try an explain to you that the real medium term risk of the trade war is inflation, and how we compute that, but since you live in a world void of Dollars and cents, there is no point.

 

[Red05]

I never said my margins will grow. I said they will remain the same unless there is competitive business forcing to me reduce them.

My bad you said your margins would be the same but you would make more money.
I don’t think in money terms? I’ve been a landlord for almost 30 years, which is a little like a small business. I’m able to think in other terms, that’s the distinction you missed, Ned.

 

[jellyrug]

My bad you said your margins would be the same but you would make more money.
I don’t think in money terms? I’ve been a landlord for almost 30 years, which is a little like a small business. I’m able to think in other terms, that’s the distinction you missed, Ned.

View attachment 1695974

View attachment 1695976

Ok, let’s talk about inflation.
Yes same margins, but more money. It means more money in numbers only, as the money will have less value. More money means I pay my employees more money, but because what they buy is more expensive, again the only thing which changed is the value of money. So we have inflation.

Red, as I said to Bee, several times, I am neutral in this issue. We have helped create an economic giant bigger than us with wrong trade policy, being China. Our debt is out of control. We need to fix this somehow by doing things which may hurt and may be very unpopular. On the other hand the markets may work against us and shed trillions.

Nobody knows how this will end. Goldman Sachs is the most reliable source and what they predict is not the end of the world.

We shall see.

I want my photo back!!!!’

PS. Long time ago I held a conference and as entertainment I had a lady college professor run a computer business simulation with six teams competing against each other. Each team ran a hamburger joint. Close to the end of the game, my team was running last. So reduced the price of our hamburgers to a nickel each. We lost the game, but had a mile long row of customers outside the store.

 

[Bumblebee]

So there are some nuances here that are relevant to this "partnership" that you elude to. Canada has had tariffs in place against many American products. And they are in place to protect Canadian interest. Take milk for example. It's currently set up to allow for American dairy imports up to a certain quota. Once that quota is met, heavy tariffs take effect to prevent U.S Dairy products from putting Canadian dairy products out of business. If Canada allowed for a free open market, the U.S. dairy industry could flood the Canadian market and put a world of hurt onto Canadian dairy farmers ability to survive. So the tariffs are there to protect your economic interest.

None of which I disagree with. I also do not agree with Trump just unilaterally applying tariffs on you. But you are saying you want a partnership. To which I agree. How do you maintain a partnership by denying that we could produce enough milk, more cheaply, but you don't want that? So you see, a partnership has to be mutual in benefits. You don't really want cheap milk. Because it hurts your own dairy industry. So why not just deny our dairy products completely? I'd suggest it's because it would raise your cost of milk to you. And you'd have a population squawking they would prefer cheaper American milk. So what your tarriffs do is use our cheaper milk to help bring down your consumer prices by combining it with your milk produced and keep your dairy industry from failing. That's a partnership. It's also essentially subsidizing your dairy industry, with cheaper American milk.

Canada has great resources we can use for manufacturing. Oil being one. We do most, if not all of your refining. You get refined oil to use, in exchange for us getting your oil to refine for our use as well. That's a partnership that benefits us both. And we are less reliant on importing from OPEC. I know you'd like to open up your pipelines and refine your own oil. That is a very hefty price tag to do that, and years to figure out how to. If doing that raised your price for refined oil products, how does that benefit you as a Canadian? Make it yourself to make it more expensive to yourself? Just to prove you don't like tariffs? I'd rather increase our refining capacity, you provide more oil and we both get cheaper energy cost to benefit from. We both win.

Canada and the US have had a trading agreement ever since there was a Canada and US....

The genius who launched this trade war is the same genius who designed and signed the NAMSA agreement touting that it was the best deal he has ever made (I can find the video if you would like).

You also have to remember that the US has a much larger economic base than Canada and the give and take goes both ways.....I'm sure if we look deep enough there are commodities that the US gouges Canada on but why be petty? I hear the long sob story regarding milk....milk of all things......that's the big kicker......these revenge tariffs were supposed to be about drugs and illegal immigrants pouring across the border into the US from Canada...both of which have been struck down on multiple occasions yet our idiots still tried to kiss the ring and spent over a billion tax payer dollars to do so......if anything, Trump should have reenforced the border on the US side to keep things out.....that's how a border works.

We did however stop lots of drugs, illegal immigrants and weapons out of Canada coming from the US so I guess it wasn't all for not.

What I am saying is our neighbor and trading partner is conducting a revenge tariff operation but this isn't a bad thing, it has shown us who are friends are and how we can't rely on the US as a reliable trading partner....

If our politicians have even an ounce of brains between all of them, they'd work hard at getting our commodities to other markets, building a refinery and reenforcing our border with every thing we have....

If pissing people off was a contest your new administration would win a gold medal.....

 

[Red05]

I want my photo back!!!!’

Lol I've already deleted it, my bad as I couldn't resist. Thank you for the economics lesson. I still don't think we understand each other as far as priorities, but let's leave it. Snowflakes, you and I. We both like motorcycles but otherwise fundamentally different. It's all good.

 

[TallTom]

Canada and the US have had a trading agreement ever since there was a Canada and US....

The genius who launched this trade war is the same genius who designed and signed the NAMSA agreement touting that it was the best deal he has ever made (I can find the video if you would like).

You also have to remember that the US has a much larger economic base than Canada and the give and take goes both ways.....I'm sure if we look deep enough there are commodities that the US gouges Canada on but why be petty? I hear the long sob story regarding milk....milk of all things......that's the big kicker......these revenge tariffs were supposed to be about drugs and illegal immigrants pouring across the border into the US from Canada...both of which have been struck down on multiple occasions yet our idiots still tried to kiss the ring and spent over a billion tax payer dollars to do so......if anything, Trump should have reenforced the border on the US side to keep things out.....that's how a border works.

We did however stop lots of drugs, illegal immigrants and weapons out of Canada coming from the US so I guess it wasn't all for not.

What I am saying is our neighbor and trading partner is conducting a revenge tariff operation but this isn't a bad thing, it has shown us who are friends are and how we can't rely on the US as a reliable trading partner....

If our politicians have even an ounce of brains between all of them, they'd work hard at getting our commodities to other markets, building a refinery and reenforcing our border with every thing we have....

I used milk. Pick whatever commodity you want. Now you're bringing another layer that is a slippery slope. Yes we have a much larger economic base. So what's your point? We have a lot more problems to solve, and we are also the world's ATM. I certainly wouldn't use that rationale in negotiating with Trump. You don't want him to win by making you spend your money on the same playing field we are on. You'll lose that war much quicker.

And yes these tariffs have been in place for quite some time. And as things change they can be revisited. That's what happening now.

I don't agree with how Trump rationalizes the reasons. I totally concur you responded with a drug Czar when he launched them before. He could have left it that. I have no objections to you launching retaliatory tariffs against us. That's your leaderships call. If that makes your anger subside, have at it. You have placed a tariff on electricity you provide us. That should make some pain felt. You aren't drinking our booze now. You should be able to survive that better than our distilleries will.

 

[jellyrug]

Canada and the US have had a trading agreement ever since there was a Canada and US....

The genius who launched this trade war is the same genius who designed and signed the NAMSA agreement touting that it was the best deal he has ever made (I can find the video if you would like).

You also have to remember that the US has a much larger economic base than Canada and the give and take goes both ways.....I'm sure if we look deep enough there are commodities that the US gouges Canada on but why be petty? I hear the long sob story regarding milk....milk of all things......that's the big kicker......these revenge tariffs were supposed to be about drugs and illegal immigrants pouring across the border into the US from Canada...both of which have been struck down on multiple occasions yet our idiots still tried to kiss the ring and spent over a billion tax payer dollars to do so......if anything, Trump should have reenforced the border on the US side to keep things out.....that's how a border works.

We did however stop lots of drugs, illegal immigrants and weapons out of Canada coming from the US so I guess it wasn't all for not.

What I am saying is our neighbor and trading partner is conducting a revenge tariff operation but this isn't a bad thing, it has shown us who are friends are and how we can't rely on the US as a reliable trading partner....

If our politicians have even an ounce of brains between all of them, they'd work hard at getting our commodities to other markets, building a refinery and reenforcing our border with every thing we have....

If pissing people off was a contest your new administration would win a gold medal.....

Let’s hope you are wrong and at some point the US and Canada sort things out fairly for both, towards a strong economic union.

 

[Bumblebee]

I used milk. Pick whatever commodity you want. Now you're bringing another layer that is a slippery slope. Yes we have a much larger economic base. So what's your point? We have a lot more problems to solve, and we are also the world's ATM. I certainly wouldn't use that rationale in negotiating with Trump. You don't want him to win by making you spend your money on the same playing field we are on. You'll lose that war much quicker.

And yes these tariffs have been in place for quite some time. And as things change they can be revisited. That's what happening now.

I don't agree with how Trump rationalizes the reasons. I totally concur you responded with a drug Czar when he launched them before. He could have left it that. I have no objections to you launching retaliatory tariffs against us. That's your leaderships call. If that makes your anger subside, have at it. You have placed a tariff on electricity you provide us. That should make some pain felt. You aren't drinking our booze now. You should be able to survive that better than our distilleries will.

If you look around and I suggest you do, try to find an economist other than a Trump lap dog that thinks this trade war and escalated tariffs are a good idea.....

I'm not an economist........I'm a pissed off Canadian but not over tariffs.........it's over the principle of them along with Trumps' ignorant, childish rhetoric of calling the country I fought and bled for the 51st state....I also fought shoulder to shoulder with my American colleagues on missions as well...so I'm not pissed off at America....just one American......

I also don't agree with our guys escalating any tariffs but to be honest, they are angry and hurt as well but are in a different position to exercise this anger....

Honestly, I'm in a position that tariffs won't really affect me, my vehicles are all paid off and I'm looking to replace them, my house is paid off and all our renovations are done and there's only the wife and I at home so our grocery bill is low.

I am thinking more for the next generation who will struggle.......

 

[jellyrug]

To someone who has not spent much time in Canadian politics:

This guy appears wise, think he would have been able to strike a deal with Trump.

This is who will be negotiating however.

I think it will just be an ego match, not much will be achieved.

Mark Carney: Canada's next PM vows to win trade war with Trump

The 59-year-old political newcomer says he will keep tariffs on US imports "until the Americans show us respect".

www.bbc.com

 

[TallTom]

If you look around and I suggest you do, try to find an economist other than a Trump lap dog that thinks this trade war and escalated tariffs are a good idea.....

I'm not an economist........I'm a pissed off Canadian but not over tariffs.........it's over the principle of them along with Trumps' ignorant, childish rhetoric of calling the country I fought and bled for the 51st state....I also fought shoulder to shoulder with my American colleagues on missions as well...so I'm not pissed off at America....just one American......

I also don't agree with our guys escalating any tariffs but to be honest, they are angry and hurt as well but are in a different position to exercise this anger....

Honestly, I'm in a position that tariffs won't really affect me, my vehicles are all paid off and I'm looking to replace them, my house is paid off and all our renovations are done and there's only the wife and I at home so our grocery bill is low.

I am thinking more for the next generation who will struggle.......

Or you can look around as well. Bill Clinton lodged huge tariffs on the EU. Not Canada. The economist were quick to pounce on him. They not only served their intended purpose. It made Clinton one of the most historically fiscally successful president of our times. Obama and Bush placed tariffs on China. Canada complain about them?

Kevin O'Leary seems to be in support of Trump's tariffs. He's one of you guys.

Next generation? What does that have to do with tariffs? You already have houses your youth can't afford. Tariffs can go away tomorrow. I get you're angry at Trump. But I wouldn't be arguing how he's bad for your next generation. Your own policies, long before Trump was elected, got your future generations in trouble.

 

[Bumblebee]

Or you can look around as well. Bill Clinton lodged huge tariffs on the EU. Not Canada. The economist were quick to pounce on him. They not only served their intended purpose. It made Clinton one of the most historically fiscally successful president of our times. Obama and Bush placed tariffs on China. Canada complain about them?

Kevin O'Leary seems to be in support of Trump's tariffs. He's one of you guys.

Next generation? What does that have to do with tariffs? You already have houses your youth can't afford. Tariffs can go away tomorrow. I get you're angry at Trump. But I wouldn't be arguing how he's bad for your next generation. Your own policies, long before Trump was elected, got your future generations in trouble.

You and I seem to be at an impasse on this subject and there seems to be little use discussing it further as we both seem to have our minds made up as to the direction of our countries.....and I'm ok with that...

I am slowly beginning to despise your current administration but that's on me........not you....

......and if you were to say you despised my current governmental body, I wouldn't disagree as I'm not a fan either...

The bottom line is.....politics and politicians suck........

 

[Red05]

I get you're angry at Trump.

I understand the theory. Why wasn’t Trump forthcoming about his plan so people could decide if that’s the path they agree with? Instead, he promised to bring the price of groceries and goods down, not send us in the other direction, no matter the timeline for his ill constructed plan.

 

[Bumblebee]

We get so close on this forum that sometimes I forget we are in different countries with differing values and ideologies....

That to me was always a good thing......sometimes subject matter brings us back to seeing how different we are as people.

 

[TallTom]

You and I seem to be at an impasse on this subject and there seems to be little use discussing it further as we both seem to have our minds made up as to the direction of our countries.....and I'm ok with that...

I am slowly beginning to despise your current administration but that's on me........not you....

......and if you were to say you despised my current governmental body, I wouldn't disagree as I'm not a fan either...

The bottom line is.....politics and politicians suck........

We are not at an impasse. You suggest I go out and look at what economist are saying about tariffs. So I sighted a Canadian who seems pretty good with the economy who's in favor of them in Kevin O'Leary. Apparently he's not the right type of economist? I also sighted that Clinton was criticized for his tariffs. The economist were wrong about them being horrible for the economy then. I'm not for tariffs as Trump is applying them to Canada. I'm just trying to address them as you request.

Your leadership is retaliating. You don't hear me complaining about it. Trump wants to stir up trade conflicts, then let's get it over with as quickly as our countries can. So we can figure out if they work or not. I want you guys to decide how to handle them in ways that don't inflict pain anymore than they have to. If I was fan of Kentucky Bourbon and I was Canadian. I might be more upset. As you pointed out, they will have little effect on you. So why wring yourself out over them? You have better ways to spend your time. So far all Trump is doing, is making good on promises on those that casted a vote for him.

 

[Red05]

So far all Trump is doing, is making good on promises on those that casted a vote for him.

I’m pretty sure Tom has me on ignore, but that is almost the opposite of what Trump is doing. His trade war idea is doing the exact opposite to the economy. His negotiations per Ukraine have yet to reach an answer. His deportation rate is still behind the prior administration. Which promise has he made good on so far?

 

[Bumblebee]

We are not at an impasse. You suggest I go out and look at what economist are saying about tariffs. So I sighted a Canadian who seems pretty good with the economy who's in favor of them in Kevin O'Leary. Apparently he's not the right type of economist? I also sighted that Clinton was criticized for his tariffs. The economist were wrong about them being horrible for the economy then. I'm not for tariffs as Trump is applying them to Canada. I'm just trying to address them as you request.

Your leadership is retaliating. You don't hear me complaining about it. Trump wants to stir up trade conflicts, then let's get it over with as quickly as our countries can. So we can figure out if they work or not. I want you guys to decide how to handle them in ways that don't inflict pain anymore than they have to. If I was fan of Kentucky Bourbon and I was Canadian. I might be more upset. As you pointed out, they will have little effect on you. So why wring yourself out over them? You have better ways to spend your time. So far all Trump is doing, is making good on promises on those that casted a vote for him.

I'm not going to start posting the myriad of economic experts talking about how bad these particular tariffs are for the current economy......and there are lots of them....they can't all be wrong and Trump be the only one on the planet that's right.......somehow he has a strangle hold on his devout followers and I just can't figure out why.....

O'Leary is a Canadian by birth only and his views are controversial at best according to many economists-not only Canadian ones either thanks. The Canadian leadership is retaliating....really? And what did you honestly expect them to do....fly down to bend a knee and kiss the ring?

You have your views, I have mine and they don't match.....not a big deal.......as you pointed out, I have better things to do with my time.