History Lesson

[jerseybusa]

Where did you get your bible, the satanist store? Mine says in psalm 14:1 that a fool says "there is no God"

That just solidifies Mr Brown's thoughts/posts there are many translations of the bible some say different yet similar things.

The basic premise is that a fool says those things or has those beliefs -- I was making a point about reading the whole passage. If you read yours and left out the first part the bible will state that there is no god -- which would prove the argument (lack of existence) that has been put forth earlier.
If data can prove itself.

 

[jerseybusa]

My church teaches exactly what the Bible says, "study to show thyself approved." So your statement is a very generalizes one. And also Jesus did say " I and my Father are one," so take that for what you may, I was enjoying this discussion until these few posts when it seems like you all are getting on the defensive side so i guess it is time to end it , Thanks and have a great evening.

I asked when Jesus stated that he was god. I can also state that me and my father are one -- does that mean that my dad was The Creator?

I am not on the defensive and I do not think any other people with a different view than you are -- It only seems like the bible thumpers get on the defensive. When I meet someone like that it just shows me that they doubt their faith.

I actually enjoy the knowledge that is passed on in these type discussions.

The only thing that I would have faith in someone higher doing would be the presence of coal. It is pretty astounding how all that organic material ended up in one large area all at once to create coal (lots of it also). So to me that appears to be evidence of a great -- Earth covering -- flood.

 

[jerseybusa]

There are 3 concepts to our existence.  
1.Atheistic Materialism=Big Bang theory. Yeah right!

2.Theistic Evolution=God used the evolutionary process to develop all living organisms.  This theory is difficult to accept since it cannot harmonize the 3 immutable laws of the universe.
     a.  law of energy conservation
     b.  law of energy deterioration
     c.  law of biogenesis.

3.  Special Creation=The Genesis account of creation in the Bible is to be taken in a literal and nattural manner.

Darwin believed in #3 until he died. He never said that god did not start everything. So the evolution theory and creation can coexist. Actually that is what being a deist (myself) is all about. A creator (I am not egotistical enough to anthropomorphize that entity by calling it anything but The Creator) started everything and then allowed it to progress naturally (evolution).

 

[Relsek]

I never intended to argue the existance of God, or anything about the Bible, we've done this before and it leads nowhere. My whole point, and I can't believe the responses I get, is that believing or not believing does not make something factual. It either is, or isn't, no matter what you believe. Do you agree with that Jersey? I know Mr. Brown does not. Am I alone here?

Kev

 

[jerseybusa]

That is true, Kev.

Someone believing in/ or not believing in something that is real still makes it real.  I can believe that there is no water in a filled pool -- it is still filled with water.  I believe the point is that no one can dispute or solidify that there is a "god".  So you can only have faith (belief in something that is intangible) when it comes to god.  Anyone can tell me and even show me that there is water in the above mentioned pool and that may change my belief.  Faith is different (per webster it is usually unchangeable), I think people interchange the two incorrectly.



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[dudewizr]

There were 8 people on the arc. Noah and his wife (1&2) his thre sons (3,4&5) and their 3 wives (6,7 &8) the 12 tribes did not come until the patriarchal stage and were born to Jacob (Israel).

darwin did not support Biogenesis (one of 3 immutable laws of the universe that that specifically prohibits transmutations-or one living organism transforming itself into another form of living organism)

darwin supported the Theistic Evolution theory in that God used the evolutionary process to develop all living organisims.

 

[Relsek]

That is true, Kev.

Someone believing in/ or not believing in something that is real still makes it real.  I can believe that there is no water in a filled pool -- it is still filled with water.  I believe the point is that no one can dispute or solidify that there is a "god".  So you can only have faith (belief in something that is intangible) when it comes to god.  Anyone can tell me and even show me that there is water in the above mentioned pool and that may change my belief.  Faith is different (per webster it is usually unchangeable), I think people interchange the two incorrectly.

Finally, someone is making sense. I was beginning to think the world had something figured out that I thought was so simple. It's like the Colombus analogy. In 1491 most Europeans thought the world was flat, it wasn't until Colombus returned from his trip over this way that people began to believe that the world indeed was not flat, but that one could sail around it. That doesn't mean that the world was flat until Colombus proved it to them, the world had been round the entire time, the people just didn't believe it.

Now, about the wind.

 

[Mr Brown]

I never intended to argue the existance of God, or anything about the Bible, we've done this before and it leads nowhere. My whole point, and I can't believe the responses I get, is that believing or not believing does not make something factual. It either is, or isn't, no matter what you believe. Do you agree with that Jersey? I know Mr. Brown does not. Am I alone here?

Kev

I agree that belief alone does not make fact. However, this applies only to things which can be proven. Hence the existence of God, The Creator, whatever you choose as a title, cannot be anything but a belief. You either believe or you do not. Until someone figures out a testable, repeatable, observable method to prove the existence, or non-existence of God, it is impossible for it to become a fact.

 

[Mr Brown]

That is true, Kev.

Someone believing in/ or not believing in something that is real still makes it real.  I can believe that there is no water in a filled pool -- it is still filled with water.  I believe the point is that no one can dispute or solidify that there is a "god".  So you can only have faith (belief in something that is intangible) when it comes to god.  Anyone can tell me and even show me that there is water in the above mentioned pool and that may change my belief.  Faith is different (per webster it is usually unchangeable), I think people interchange the two incorrectly.

Finally, someone is making sense. I was beginning to think the world had something figured out that I thought was so simple. It's like the Colombus analogy. In 1491 most Europeans thought the world was flat, it wasn't until Colombus returned from his trip over this way that people began to believe that the world indeed was not flat, but that one could sail around it. That doesn't mean that the world was flat until Colombus proved it to them, the world had been round the entire time, the people just didn't believe it.

 Now, about the wind.

It was a belief that the world was flat. It was a fact that it was a sphere. Once the proof of its shape was made common knowledge, (something the Church fought, interestingly enough) belief was no longer required. Facts are not facts regardless, they are beliefs until proven. Even if someone had believed that the world was round earlier, it was still only a belief, although that belief coincided with the fact, until the proof was shown.

 

[Mr Brown]

Maybe someday someone will prove the existence of God. Then all those who believe will be PROVEN right. Whether or not God exists will be a topic of discussion until either A) It's proven, or B) Mankind is gone.

 

[Relsek]

That is true, Kev.

Someone believing in/ or not believing in something that is real still makes it real.  I can believe that there is no water in a filled pool -- it is still filled with water.  I believe the point is that no one can dispute or solidify that there is a "god".  So you can only have faith (belief in something that is intangible) when it comes to god.  Anyone can tell me and even show me that there is water in the above mentioned pool and that may change my belief.  Faith is different (per webster it is usually unchangeable), I think people interchange the two incorrectly.

Finally, someone is making sense. I was beginning to think the world had something figured out that I thought was so simple. It's like the Colombus analogy. In 1491 most Europeans thought the world was flat, it wasn't until Colombus returned from his trip over this way that people began to believe that the world indeed was not flat, but that one could sail around it. That doesn't mean that the world was flat until Colombus proved it to them, the world had been round the entire time, the people just didn't believe it.

 Now, about the wind.

It was a belief that the world was flat. It was a fact that it was a sphere. Once the proof of its shape was made common knowledge, (something the Church fought, interestingly enough) belief was no longer required. Facts are not facts regardless, they are beliefs until proven. Even if someone had believed that the world was round earlier, it was still only a belief, although that belief coincided with the fact, until the proof was shown.

Oops, missed a day.

The world being a sphere had probably been proven to some people already, it's just that it hadn't been proven to the Europeans (much of the world probably didn't even care).

The problem is that some people always have to have things proven to them before they will believe it, and they'll fight and say it's just a belief until it is proven to them. As far as God goes, what if he has proven himself to many, some only refuse to see the evidence and attribute it to God.
Kev

 

[jerseybusa]

Kev,

So you have faith in god, right?

How has that been proven to you?

Also, I asked earlier what is a miracle, any examples?

 

[Relsek]

Kev,

So you have faith in god, right?

How has that been proven to you?

Also, I asked earlier what is a miracle, any examples?

Regardless of whether I do or not, it is possible that God has shown proof of his existance to many?

If God were to stand in front of you and say "I am God" and then prove it by doing miracles and explaining how he works, would you believe him?

Kev

 

[jerseybusa]

To me that would not happen I do not have faith in there being a god that gets involved with us. I am a deist.

I am not sure what a miracle is, that is why I am asking.

 

[jerseybusa]

Kev

Going riding, so I'll get back later.

It is always great reading stuff from you.

 

[Relsek]

Kev

Going riding, so I'll get back later.  

It is always great reading stuff from you.

I just returned from a ride with the Mrs. It was her longest ride yet, about 45-50 miles.

 

[Relsek]

To me that would not happen I do not have faith in there being a god that gets involved with us.  I am a deist.  

I am not sure what a miracle is, that is why I am asking.

I think this statement is like a person in the basement of his house saying, "I don't believe in wind" and never going outside and letting the wind blow on his face. He has rejected that there is wind before he has given the wind a chance to prove that it is there.

Kev

 

[jerseybusa]

Unfortunately I grew up Catholic -- so it was really windy but in a weird way. I never lost faith in something starting this thing we call life -- I just have faith in the fact that it started everything and then moved on. I think organized religion is just crap -- I am more spiritual than religious I guess.

 

[Relsek]

Unfortunately I grew up Catholic -- so it was really windy but in a weird way.  I never lost faith in something starting this thing we call life -- I just have faith in the fact that it started everything and then moved on.  I think organized religion is just crap -- I am more spiritual than religious I guess.

I understand the feeling. It's a shame that it sometimes happens that way, people let other people come between them and God.

You say you have faith that It started everythin and then moved on, so does that mean that if the It that started everything stood in front of you and told you he was the creator, is there any way he/It could prove it to you?

 

[jerseybusa]

I guess if the "it" came back for a visit and stood in front of me I would believe it. I never said that I do not believe in a creator I just do not subscribe to the thoughts that it would be "bothered" by still dealing with us. It created everything it must have more important crap to do.