How Soon Can I Swith To Synthetic

[rybraun]

I have a 02 with only 1200 miles, child birth last June has helped keep the miles low. When do you guys recommend switching to synthetic oil? And what weight would be best for a WI climate?

 

[Revlis]

OK Here's the thing, apparantly Oil is a very personal thing, your going to get several different opinions... I replaced my dino with Silkolene full synthetic right at 2K miles.  It made an incredible difference.  Use a Motorcycle Specific oil as well, Automotive oils are not designed to tolerate the shear forces of a wet clutch and tranny...(SO I have Read)  

Oil weight wise Stick with the 10W40...  Suzuki is pretty darned specific...  Also, unless your running at the track, or have a Turbo, anything heavier than 10W40 is just going to be Parasitic and cost you some HP...  ( A Little)    

Finally, as you may or may not know, I am a HUGE Silkolene Beeyootch!!!!  The stuff is awesome... <span style='color:blue'>Silkolene Pro-4</span>

There are other Synthetics out there that are supposed to kick butt as well, Amsoil comes to mind... What you want to make certain of is that whatever synthetic you choose carries a JASO certification and is a 100% Ester Synthetic. It's pricey, but the difference is just amazing.

So, I would prolly wait until 2K miles to switch to full synthetic, I say this only because a guy at the Dealership raised an eyebrow at me when I told him I had been running a full Synth since 2K miles. I dunno...seemed to concern him...

Rev

 

[mountainmotor]

I placed Maxima Maxum 4 10w-40 in a Kawasaki ZX-9R three weeks ago when the engine had 281 miles on it . It was a new old stock 2002 model I just purchased .

Now at 3 weeks and right at 3000 miles later the engine did NOT burn a drop that I can tell .

This is not the first time I have used real, not fake synthetic very early in a engines life ..... just the most recent

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[BusaWhipped]

You should not use synthetic oil earlier than 1500 miles.  Synthetic oils are slicker than standard oils which will effect the ability of the piston rings to seat properly.  You can probably use it earlier since most of the seating process happens within the first hundred miles or so, but 1500 miles is considered safe in giving the rings time to fully seat.  You may want to read  http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

 

[thesnake]

I stuck synth in mine at 2500k

 

[Furball]

Definitely not b4 the first 600 miles....this is the time you have to make sure the rings properly seat and for some reason rings seat better with dino oil....I would then run it to about the 2500-3000 for the syn....I myself am still using the damn dino oil because I bought a friggin case of Suzuki 10w40....One more change at about 6000 miles and I should be done.....can't wait to go to syn, but just can't waste the money when I already have the oil here...

 

[Busa Bill]

2K and used Amsoil 10/40

 

[gsxr1100]

I switched to a synthetic (group 4/5) at 00018 miles. For me, I will take the higher Noack Volatility and longer ring seat-in time (little higher Iron in oil tests), vs better protection, better VI, better HTHS and the list goes on and on. But that is me and has worked on every engine I have owned and never had a problem.

AS someone noted Silkolene oil, yes it is good but there Ca is low, Boron is why to high I feel for bikes, and lastly there ZDDP could use some help.

Here is your Silkolene Pro-S

Iron 2
Chromium
Aluminium
Moly 1
Copper
Lead 2
Tin
Nickel
Silicon 2
Sodium 3
Boron 325
Vanadium
Calcium 2724
Phosphorus 917
Zinc 1212
Mg 28
Barium

And some other Silkolene oils.

Silkolene PRO S 5w-40

KV 100DegC 14.89
KV 40DDegC 92.35
VI Index 169
Pour -51 DegC
Flash 210 DegC
HTHS 4.07
Noack 6%

Silkolene PRO S 10w-50

KV 100DegC 18.17
KV 40DDegC 116.49
VI Index 174
Pour -33 DegC
Flash 210 DegC
HTHS 5.11
Noack 5%

Silkolene PRO R 15w-50

KV 100DegC 18.2
KV 40DDegC 130
VI Index 156
Pour -35 DegC
Flash 200 DegC
HTHS 5.23
Noack 5%

Side note: Silkolene is Silkolene is 20%+ diester Balance PAO.


Here is Amsoil’s new stuff;

20w-50 Motorcycle bike oil (NEW): HTHS =6.02
TBN=11.0
VI=153
Noack Volatility=3.89% (great number)
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C=20.1 cSt
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C=151 cSt
CCS=5609
Pour point=-38 F
Flash Point=464 F
ZDDP 1031 & 946
Ca 3852

10w-40 Motorcycle bike oil (NEW)
HTHS= 4.52
VI= 152
TBN 11.0
Kinematic Viscosity @ 100°C=13.9 cSt
Kinematic Viscosity @ 40°C=93 cSt
CCS=6794
Pour point=-51 F
Flash Point=453 F
ZDDP 1358 & 1245 (about 300ppm more then there old bike oil)
Ca 3094 ppm

Looks like Silkolene is taking a back seat here, I think  Silkolene is like $10 per qt and then I get Amsoil for (6 per qt). Not Pro "anyone" but I go with what has a higher add pkg here.

Maxima looks ok but some of there oils have a low flash point, VI looks low on some and do not know there HTHS #'2. ZDDP is up there Zn and P are up there and TBN of 12.



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[CorrodedAlien]

I'm not so technical... I switched tonice cheap Mobile one around 8k miles...

 

[da busa guy]

i put synthetic in at 500 miles (mobil mx4t syn for bikes)so far so good at 1100 miles

 

[mountainmotor]

AS someone noted Silkolene oil, yes it is good but there Ca is low, Boron is why to high I feel for bikes, and lastly there ZDDP could use some help.


Looks like Silkolene is taking a back seat here, I think  Silkolene is like $10 per qt and then I get Amsoil for (6 per qt). Not Pro "anyone" but I go with what has a higher add pkg here.

Maxima looks ok but some of there oils have a low flash point, VI looks low on some and do not know there HTHS #'2. ZDDP is up there Zn and P are up there and TBN of 12.

I posted an analysis of the latest version of the Silkolene Pro 4 used 13+ months . No boron used . TBN was 6.50 . Wear metal held down well . It can be found by searching .

Boron is a good thing . It's expensive though so many don't use it or at large amounts . Besides , many ways to brew a positive oil .

I think if you get to looking around , there are two ASTM methods for checking flash point . One produces a lower number every time , like 30f+ lower however it's only listed on data sheets for shipping purposes .

Here's the HT/HS for the Maxima Extra 4 15w-50

5.5 HT/HS out of a 17.5 cSt oil is very good . They are using over 1000 ppm of groovy antinomy " ala F1 racing " which is such good anti-wear for the tranny and phosphorus 3382
Zinc 2459  after 2400+ miles of abuse . Much was depleted .

A note to all . You might be carefull when comparing Amsoils NOACK to others . Last year a sample of their 30wt was sent to Savant , heard of them ?

  The NOACK was just nowhere near their advertised .

One more note . Even though 4 ball testing is for grease , Amsoil still uses it but be aware they change the RPM's and length of running time between their oil brand line that IMO helps produce better numbers for weaker oils .

Lastly , the Maxima can be purchased at big discount through onoffroaddotcom . Both the Extra 4 and the high end Ultra under 90.00 per case of 12 and 126.00 for 20 liter pails or shops that bu through Parts Unlimited can pass huge savings along if they wish . Around 6.30 per liter and they can make some money still .

The Euro companies really do make advanced engine oils . Are the US companies behind the times or does the corporate bean counters get in the way of building superior oils ? The latter is my bet



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[gsxr1100]

That is weird on Amsoil NOACK. I have been testing oil since the early 1990 and so far the results with Amsoil comes back pretty darn good. My Lexus oil change was great with over 12K miles. I can still keep going on the same oil..The NOACK is what they state since I add about 8 oz of make up in 12K miles….That means a very good NOACK rating here.

Everyone likes to comment on there 4-ball but for me all their articles mean zero to me. Show me the results (oil tests) in the real world and so far, it works.

Boron (borates) is good but there are different forms of it. I think 3 of 3 different kinds.

Is Maxima Extra a good oil sure, but what does this very HIGH zddp buy you. Since it is 2X the norm it better have 2x better the wear numbers. If not, not worth it in my eyes. Yes it is good but if you do an oil testing and all things are good what does it do?  Based on the numbers, Amsoil vs Maxium are both the same or really really close minus the ZDDP. There Cst (I assume @ 100c) is nothing high or low here.

How about this, my next oil change I will use their 15w50 (Maxium) and then test. Then compare it to my last Amsoil oil? Would be interesting to see the difference in wear.

I would not say the USA oil people are behind the times. I think (more like know) the API and people wanting to see this is driving the oils. Based on current API ratings, no euro oil would pass it. Nor does some Amsoil, some Redline and some others.

But I also blame the dealers since most push “If you do not use this oil……â€￾



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[mountainmotor]

That is weird on Amsoil NOACK. I have been testing oil since the early 1990 and so far the results with Amsoil comes back pretty darn good. My Lexus oil change was great with over 12K miles. I can still keep going on the same oil..The NOACK is what they state since I add about 8 oz of make up in 12K miles….That means a very good NOACK rating here.

Here is what I beleive is happening . You obviously have good ring seal but after seeing 100's of Amsoil Xw-30 wt analysis's at high mile intervals I would imagine your oil was oxidized from heat , your emissions systems on that particular engine and what little engine blowby you might have and had thickened well into the 40wt range . I have seen some approach 50wt range .

When oil is thick , the better the ring seal . With any engine the rings will seal better with a 40wt than a 20 wt and when an oil suffers oxidative thickening at 100c " where the lab tests " it also is much thicker at 40c when engines burn oil also , during the warm-up phase .

Elf , a premier foreign oil company pays particular attention to such oxidative thickening as does the ACEA where all used the older TU3MH bench test that has been superceded to the newer and much more demanding ACEA TU5JP which relates to oxidative thickening at 40c concerning A5 , A3 and 98 oils and how it relates to fuel mileage over the course of an oil change interval .

I don't mean any harm to you or your judgement on analysis but I've been around the block reading analysis for awhile and pretty much 2+2=4 here in your case IMO .

You are using the OAI lab aren't you  

I've seen them OK Amsoil for further use when very thick before .

As far as trying the Maxima to compare , you can but one has to trend any oil . Trend analysis is a key couple words there and one trial may not be enough unless the oil a guy is using is simply not close to cutting it in the first place .

As far as the larger amount of zinc in the Maxima and me being sold on it , you do know active zinc is depleted over time don't you ? It also serves as a very good anti-oxident . I'd also not underestimate the function of antinomy in a gear box along with large amounts of sulphur .

Maxima is using cutting edge technology of tommorrow in todays world . It's a race oil that is very street friendly but may not be for everyone . I don't have a vested interest so it does not matter to me what everyone else uses . I help when I want or can but mostly all I care about is what I've learned and put it to use when I buy oils because I really beleive oils are tools and to pick the right tool for the job at hand is better than using a Crescent wrench on everything .

Thats why I use

Synergyn
Fuchs/Silkolene
Maxima

Adios on this topic / thread  

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[gsxr1100]

First off:

Before going any further here, I would not say "What I beleive is happening " but I can show you the numbers and well, you are off some...

1) I do not use a Amsoil Xw-30 in my bike. I use it in my car and the results are online...and very good I might add and ZERO issues with TAN, TBN, OXD or NOX and thr TBN still is up there. Wear is also very low comapted to other dino oils with 60% less miles on the oil. Going for another test in 2 months.

2) The oil tests in OXD and NOX are low in my car and about 80% lower in my gsxr.Heat is not even an issue.

3) I have used Blackstone, Butler, Cat and OAI.So take that right out of the picture.

4) Yes I know ZDDP deplates but at a NON-LINEAR function...old news. But if the added benefit of ZDDP does not show up on the test, the 2x (in Maxium) does zero for ya. If you have more you better get more....

5) I do not know what you mean by high or not high but my oils test in my cars, my wifes, my gsxr and my diesel engines are working pretty good.

6) does amsoil state there oil is ok, sure. But you need to be smart, along with them, on how much does it too. Going from a 30wt (9.3-12.40 cst) to start into a 40wt (12.50-16.29 cst) is nothing.

Example, if you oils goes from 11.40 to 12.88 or even 13.00, it is nothing to worry about. Not even a factor here. Has it thicken a little sure, but I would look at other factors or issues since you are wasting your time with the cst issues.

The other oils you stated:

Synergyn 15w-50 Synthetic (not impressed here at all). This is one test and have another.
Iron 1
Silver 2
Aluminum 2
Potassium 1

Moly 74
Boron 111
Magnesium 8
Calcium 2860
Phos 1143
Zinc 1290
Si 2
Vi @ 100c 18.7
ISO 18/13
Ferrous Debris 7
Paricle Volume 2

Maxima (so far only the extra looks good and I will try it). Very close to others as I have stated.

I have looked at some Silkolene oils and again not to impressed by the oil tests (unused).

And that is about it....all old news.



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[gsxr1100]

Maxima extra also has a Ca (Calcium) of only 730ppm

 

[MET]

I have a 02 with only 1200 miles, child birth last June has helped keep the miles low. When do you guys recommend switching to synthetic oil? And what weight would be best for a WI climate?

You are good to go to make the change when you are ready at the next oil change period. The miles you have are fine to start. Basically you just don't want to break the bike in with syn.

 

[MET]

I have a 02 with only 1200 miles, child birth last June has helped keep the miles low. When do you guys recommend switching to synthetic oil? And what weight would be best for a WI climate?

You are good to go to make the change when you are ready at the next oil change period. The miles you have are fine to start. Basically you just don't want to break the bike in with syn.

 

[mountainmotor]

Maxima extra also has a Ca (Calcium) of only 730ppm

Geeze  

They also use over 630 ppm of overbased magnesium and 250 ppm of sodium for even more detergency , something once again you did not know about and how additives can work synergisticly together. More to that effect below .

Obviously you thinkyou can judge a book by it's cover .

Your not impressed by the Synergyn yet you know nothing about it's base oils , the ashless anti-oxidents , corrosion inhibitors amine/phosphates not seen through analysis and you have never used it ...... just where do you think that virgin analysis you posted came from ?

Also , in playing chemist you say one oil uses too much boron ? How do you know ? Is this your proffesion and does that oil maker know they should reduce the amount of boron in their oil ?

I knew you were not running 30wt in your bike because of the fact you spoke of analysis and brand car . I went to your site and saw where the lab even said your oil thickened  out of grade yet you say it's A-OK . Bunk , TBN was 3.3 and time to dump was before the total miles you ran and at your site I saw where you claim Mobil uses TMP Ester in the Supersyn . Wrong again , they are using PAO's and their Synesstic Alkylated Napthalenes which offer better hydrolytical stability and premium seal compatability . Their oils don't thicken out of grade like Amsoil and neither does the 30wt Synergyns .

Akin to what you wrote about the Synergyn you wrote :
"I have looked at some Silkolene oils and again not to impressed by the oil tests (unused).

And that is about it....all old news. "

The more you post ,  the more ammo it gives me to show you are near clueless when it comes to judging performance of an oil based on new oil analysis baselines plus you obviously did not know what the mag and sodium does in the Maxima formula or your purposely ommited those adds to make the Amsoil look better .

Here is that Silkolene you said you were unimpressed with . This was around 13 months of service in a ZX-9R . The Synergyn WILL run with it and do you know why I know ? I have analysis's to prove it

 

[mountainmotor]

This is one fine motor oil and did a great job yet your not impressed by how it looks on paper . Again , your judging books by their covers  and a guy just cannot do that ..... obviously



EDIT:

I will choose to let you win though and WILL NOT FOLLOW UP. If I'm going to spend my time debating an oil topic I choose to spend it with a person more informed than either of us . That way " I " might learn something from the debate .



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[manatrader]

I placed Maxima Maxum 4 10w-40 in a Kawasaki ZX-9R three weeks ago when the engine had 281 miles on it . It was a new old stock 2002 model I just purchased .

Now at 3 weeks and right at 3000 miles later the engine did NOT burn a drop that I can tell .

This is not the first time I have used real, not fake synthetic very early in a engines life ..... just the most recent

For all of us oil rookies, how can you tell real synthetic or fake synthetic?

You two are having a good old pissing match, which I do not mind since I'm getting a little educational value out of it.