I threw out my CHRISTmas tree...

WWJD

Donating Member
Registered
Yep. Staring at my lil CHRISTmas tree, in the closet ready to come out and be plugged in again, I came to a realization and pitched it instead. Well, I donated it to a friend who pitched it cuz one of the 3 legs was broken and the branches on the bottom 1/4 had come loose.... so SHE pitched it. Point is, I wanted it gone. It really did nothing for me except detract my thoughts away from true meaning of CHRISTmas: HAM! No, that's not it...

I went to my parents and asked them for their old 'Manger' scene and am gonna use that instead to remind me why every year we mob the malls, spend more than we have for stuff to give away and hopefully GET more of, get short in traffic and hate the person in front of us for writing a check, and over book our schedule running from family scene to family scene... all the sales, all the pretty lights, the snow covered trees, some fat guy with a beard and dated red suit... I can't think of a BETTER distraction than 'shiney/pretty' can you? I was parked outside a Target store waiting for a friend, and I could see droves of shoppers going through the checkout lines thru those big front store windows... only saw about 3 smiles. I wondered how many of them celebrate 'X'mas instead of CHRISTmas?? I believe CHRISTmas is the biggest holiday on the planet, and I don't mean dollars and cents wise. I mean GLOBAL RECOGNITION of the birth of one guy that affected the entire planet in a way no future wannbee ever will again. Period. No Hitlers, no Ghandi's no Beatles, no L Ron Hubbards will ever match this. And it's not just because people are sheep [even though some are], it's because the stuff really works - even today. Do you have ANY idea how much of our NORMAL SOCIETY is based on Christ? Small example: 12 steps anyone? A very large percenttage of common cliches about anything are found in the bible. It's a deeper and wider reach than many care to admit. I don't wanna get into a humanist vs messiah thing online cuz there are millions of opinions and 'truths' per individual and this is not the place. I just don't see major holidays for Aristotle and Socrates. There might be a reason for that.

So, anyway, I kinda wonder why we put such a skewed commercial spin on everything? We did it to Easter also.... remember Easter? It's a religious holiday too... or used to be. Are these holidays REALLY supposed to be about US getting STUFF?? CHRISTmas gets us gifts, Easter nets us candy eggs. I'm not bitter or anything, I have plenty of cash to give lots of goodies to family and crap like that, I simply hate feeling like I'm stuck in a Matrix where things have to be like that instead of as they really should be.

And what about "X"mas? Are we that lazy we have to shorten the word, replacing CHRIST with an X? Christ is ONE sylable, Halo is two, lets call it: Xween from now on. Christ is THE reason for the season - we X out the whole reason? Or maybe it IS some deep dark conspiracy... oh oh oh! CAN'T sing CHRISTmas carols in school - it would be wrong... but have ya LISTENED TO POPULAR LYRICS ON THE RADIO blaring in study halls lately? remove ONE NATION UNDER GOD cuz it offends someone. No wonder children SHOOT each other - they've no moral basis for right and wrong excpet "what's right for you" because the world's largest holiday has been X'ed. With every Xmas doled out, you slap the holiday across the face and go "Look! I'm subjegating myself to the slow subliminal reprogramming of the elimination of CHRIST from CHRISTmas." Do we burn flags on the forth of July? I'm sure we could justify it with some lame story like "well, with all the bombs going off I'm sure some flags caught fire, so we burn them in recognition..." Hogwash! And I am way too young to say 'hogwash'!

Yeah, maybe I'll offend someone... well go cry in your coffee, the united states is free and you are free to NOT listen. I don't sit around trying to BAN your lyrics from our kids schools [hope parents take care of that], so shut the heck up and go sit down.
smile.gif


hmmmmm, got off track somehow... Anyway, traded the tree in for a 3D wooden Manger scene with the hut, lil family, some animals, shepards, wise man all standing around in their plasticness, and a tiny baby Jesus in the middle. I look at it and remember why we even HAVE a holiday named CHRISTmas [not Xmas]. Somehow it feels right again.

I'm not sorry for my tone, because it's just the truth and sometimes truth DOES hurt. Just hope it touches one person to snap them out of the trance of reprograming and back to the REAL reality of what it is. If you don't know the story it's all here:
The orginal CHRISTmas script

My family reads it every year so we can remember why it exists. As my friends become inebriated on shiney/pretty, I'll stand back on my consistant foundation remembering the same thing evey year: CHRISTmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ around 2004 years ago and it will ALWAYS be about that even if the generations that remember it die off, the politicians vote it out, the historians erase it....
it's about a baby away in a manger, not a pine tree with colored lights or a fat, bearded guy in a red suit.

If you get frustrated with others this time of year, if you don't have the money to buy stuff, if you feel your missing the point, just relax and take a moment to remember WHY it even happens.

Happy Birthday, Jesus Christ!
Born approximately: December 25th, 0000
Nailed to a cross for being too nice: 0035 ish?
Rose again: Easter, and passed out colored eggs to all the children of Egypt. [okay, I made that very last part up]

Merry CHRISTmas!!!
 
WW, stay calm and in control...dont let your religion get to your head... remember scripts are scripts and any nit wit could have written them, doesnt mean they are 100% accurate, especially being written in an age where transposing one language to another was as foreign as radial mounted brake levers? the christmas we know taday has morphed, transposed and passed around like gravy during thanksgiving, christmas was derived from many other celebrations like the winter solstice, Saturnalia," which was the merging of the Zagmuk and "Sacaea." The Greek festival in honor of Kronos was the ancient Babylonian and Persian "Sacaea" so on and so on...

the only reference I have found that christmas has anything to do with the "birth of christ" is from the christians themselves?
modern christians are the ones who claim christmas was origionally a celebration for the birth of christ?. I guess why they say its in celebration of christs b-day is because christians dont really know christs b-day, so religious leaders plastered christs name to those celebrations in order to get more recognition to catholosism and changing the origional names of the solstice and the other celebrations, like the celebrations that taught men not to hold too fast to their money, and to "part with it and let it pass into other hands" hence wiping out the real meaning of christmas? apparently so churches could get their hands on the money. sounds a little bit like how you describe corporate america today? then the christians got a hold of it...

christmas was first celebrated around 1131 and called Cristes Maesse, some 1000 years after the claimed death of christ, and the oldest parts of the bible were committed to memory before being written, much like the koran? the first parts of the bible were written as far back as 1400 BCE most 400 to 900 yrs BCE, which is odd? most of the bible was written before jesus was born? way before he was born? in fact the only tangible bit of evidence there is that jesus ever lived is only in the new testiment? not that I have anything against the bible or jesus, but lets keep it in perspective, christmas didnt really become corporate christmas untill corporate america evolved some 50 yrs ago, it appears the christians stole it from the greeks and corporate america is stealing it from the christians? so it seems this holiday has been switching hands here and there, but I like to think of christmas being what it is, a time for giving what you can, to who you can, and a farewell to all.... either way, Merry Christmas to all...



<!--EDIT|†WÃ￾§â€ Ã«D
Reason for Edit: None given...|1072184696 -->
 
HE HE I'll hop aboard this religious discussion...

To summerize whats written below(Taken From World Net Daily)  Christ was an afterthought stuck to a holiday that predates Christianity by a few thousand years.  The Church pulled his birthday out of their asses and slapped it on the 25th because the Pagans we're out there partying anyway.  Well, the "Holy" Church usually kills anything or anyone that threatens it's chokehold on the minds of it's followers, but them pesky Pagans wouldn't give it up....So, BAM Christ was born on the 25th of December and all them folks passing around gifts and decorating trees are actually Christians...

In a few months, we'll address Easter...  And Bunnies, Eggs, Easter Egg Hunts, and Baskets full of Grass...  Oh yeah...Not Christian either...  interesting huh....

Love you WWJD....Not a personal attack Bro...


The Catholic Encyclopedia states, '"the word for Christmas in late Old English is Cristes Maesse, the Mass of Christ, first found in 1038, and Cristes-messe, in 1131."

It explains "Christmas was not among the earliest festivals of the Church," pointing out "first evidence of the feast is from Egypt" around A.D. 200 with attempts by theologians to assign not only the year of Christ's birth, but also the precise date.

Historians agree that through the subsequent centuries, traditions from ancient pagan (non-Christian) religions became intertwined with those of Christianity, and depending upon one's point of view, either paganism became Christianized, or Christianity became paganized.

In 1644, the English Parliament outlawed the holiday, compelling shops to be open that day, and condemning plum puddings and mince pies as "heathen."

In his Pulitzer Prize finalist, "The Battle for Christmas," historian Stephen Nissenbaum at the University of Massachusetts documents the American development of the holiday now ensconced in popular culture.

"In New England, for the first two centuries of white settlement," writes Nissenbaum, "most people did not celebrate Christmas. In fact, the holiday was systematically suppressed by Puritans during the colonial period and largely ignored by their descendants. It was actually illegal to celebrate Christmas in Massachusetts between 1659 and 1681 (the fine was five shillings). Only in the middle of the nineteenth century did Christmas gain legal recognition as an official public holiday in New England."

Nissenbaum agrees with other historians that the first recorded observance since the New Testament recounted Christ's birth took place hundreds of years after Jesus' resurrection.

"It was only in the fourth century that the Church officially decided to observe Christmas on Dec. 25. And this date was not chosen for religious reasons but simply because it happened to mark the approximate arrival of the winter solstice, an event that was celebrated long before the advent of Christianity. The Puritans were correct when they pointed out – and they pointed it out often – that Christmas was nothing but a pagan festival covered with a Christian veneer."

Christmas in America saw huge growth during the 19th century, starting with Washington Irving's 1820 book "The Keeping of Christmas at Bracebridge Hall." A week before Christmas in 1834, Charles Dickens published "A Christmas Carol," and in 1860, American illustrator Thomas Nast created Father Christmas, also known as Santa Claus, based on European stories of St. Nicholas, the patron saint of children.

Spirit of the rising sun

Today, followers of ancient paganism strive to remind the public about the heathen origins of traditions that many may never have questioned. They've published books, given speeches, and created websites proffering a heathen history of modern customs.

CircleSanctuary.org is among the Internet addresses run by nature-worshipping pagans. Author Selena Fox discusses the state of being pagan and celebrating the lengthening of days during the Northern Hemisphere's darkest time of year.


"Yule, the winter solstice, is a festival of peace and a celebration of waxing solar light. I honor the new sun child by burning a[n] oaken yule log in a sacred fire. I honor the great goddess in her many great mother aspects, and the father god as Santa in his old sky god, father time, and holly king forms. I decorate my home with lights and with holly, ivy, mistletoe, evergreens and other herbs sacred to this season. I ring in the new solar year with bells."
Fox even provides a list of suggestions on how 21st century citizens can take part in the ancient rituals, to "re-paganize" Christmastime:


Have gift exchanges and feasts over the course of several days and nights as was done of old

Adorn the home with sacred herbs and colors; decorate in druidic holiday colors of red, green and white

Hang a sprig of mistletoe above a major threshold and leave it there until next yule as a charm for good luck throughout the year

Have family/household members join together to make or purchase an evergreen wreath

If you choose to have a living or a harvested evergreen tree as part of your holiday decorations, call it a solstice tree and decorate it with pagan symbols

Reclaim Santa Claus as a pagan godform by decorating him with images that reflect his various heritages ranging from the Greek god Cronos (father time) to Odin, the Scandinavian all-father riding the sky on an eight-legged horse

Place pagan mother-goddess images around your home, possibly including one with a sun child, such as Isis with Horus

Honor the new solar year with light – light candles, burn a yule log and save a portion for the following year, put colored lights outside your home, and with the popularity of five-pointed stars, consider displaying a blue or white pentagram.
The greatest story never told?

The pagan connections to Christmas are not news to the likes of Garner Ted Armstrong, a Christian evangelist and political commentator based in Tyler, Texas. Armstrong has been proclaiming such information for the past 46 years on a peak of 135 television and 360 radio stations, stating "it is impossible to 'put Christ back in Christmas,' since He was never in Christmas in the first place!"

"None of the apostles of Christ ever heard of the term; not one of them ever celebrated Christ's birthday," writes Armstrong in his booklet "Christmas ... The Untold Story." "The words Christmas, holly wreath, mistletoe, Rudolph, Santa Claus and Christmas tree do not appear anywhere in the Bible."

Armstrong is among Christians who believe God's plan of salvation for mankind is more accurately depicted through holidays which are frequently mentioned in Scripture, such as Passover and the Day of Atonement. If anything, he thinks Dec. 25 would most likely be Jesus' conception day, thus placing his birth in the autumn, possibly during the Feast of Tabernacles, symbolizing God's "tabernacling" – that is to say, dwelling – with mankind.

Like-minded preachers say the Bible warns extensively about adopting pagan customs, pointing to the 10th chapter of Jeremiah to specifically cite the practice of tree decoration, which some historians date back to ancient Egypt and Babylon:


"Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." (Jer 10:2-4)
Armstrong says the pagan celebrations, including winter's Saturnalia, or feast of Saturn in ancient Rome, crept into ostensible Christianity over many years, and some writers began urging a celebration at the same time as the secular events "for the simple reason that so many pagans were already accustomed to 'joyous,' sometimes 'riotous' orgies of feasting at the time of the winter solstice."

"It would be a sin for me [to celebrate Christmas], but it doesn't mean it's the unpardonable sin," Armstrong told WorldNetDaily, stressing he doesn't feel at all threatened by the holiday.

"I have no more difficulty walking through Beijing at the Chinese New Year and seeing the dragons and fireworks. It doesn't affect me. ... [the Apostle] Paul says the idol is nothing."

While Armstrong teaches against the observance of Christmas, he adds that most people who celebrate it are doing so with good intentions, simply unaware of the facts regarding its origins, and they should neither be judged nor condemned by fellow believers in Jesus. He encourages people to type words like "origins of Christmas" into Internet search engines to find out for themselves the background on the customs.
 
I KNEW there'd be people who post that stuff. I can also prove our government was founded by satanic masons!
smile.gif

Come on! It is CHRIST -mas... not BUY-mass!!! Ask ANYONE on the earth what the true meaning of CHRISTmas is and they are not gonna reference some pagan copycat rituals, or Budah, or whatever. They'll say the birth of Christ. It's even in the name. I'm not offended, you guys, aw shucks. Hope you don't let me offend you. I love hearing peoples opinions - if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. All opinions ALWAYS respected. Thanks for your reply's. I'm still celebrating wif my widdle manger scene anyway!
smile.gif


Twisted: I've put the challenge out before: show me another life system that works BETTER than Christianity and I'll convert. It must have a proven track record and coutless people to testify it's effectiveness through longevity. It can't be equal because those are mostly clones. Good luck. I've seen them all. Take this private if you like.
smile.gif

I'm not one to rant on about religion here and don't wanna start.... but this is CHRISTmas!!!!
biggrin.gif


smile.gif


smile.gif
 
To quote Carlin "Religion is like a pair of shoes, don't make me wear your shoes, and don't nail your shoes to the natives."

I agree WWJD that there are a lot worse things that folks could be living their lives by, but your contention that a "thing" is a "thing" because the masses say so, is a little thin...

And if you ask me what Christmas is, I'll tell you it's the time of the year when most everyone in America spends more than they should on crap they don't need so they can feel good about themselves and tell themselves how generous and good they are...Yep, Social Masterbation...

You say "Ask ANYONE on the earth what the true meaning of CHRISTmas is and they are not gonna reference some pagan copycat rituals, or Budah, or whatever. They'll say the birth of Christ."

Hmm... pretty sure I just said something different, and refering to Pagans copying Christians...Dude you got it bassackwards. It was the Christians assimilating the rituals, not the other way around....Kinda like the Borg.

Christianity has become succesfull because of it's allowance for personal gain, the assurance that you can be just about as evil as you like and still be "saved", and the implicated self importance of being one on one with your god. Not to mention the whole lets nail those that disagree to a piece of wood OR just kill em outright. Pretty effective method of conversion....

I was raised a Christian, but one day while in Church I looked around and realized that the congregation was nothing but posers. Folks attending for images sake, or belief that just by going to church they will somehow fool god. You'll see them in your Church as well. This thought disturbed me enough when I was about 14 that I haven't been back since. I mean if your going to step into "God's House" you better at least believe, and what I saw and still see is folks running around with this thin veneer of goodness and belief wrapped tight around them every Sunday morning, then try to run the Busa off the road and give the Finger for a blessing...Yeah, good Christian, be about your day.

I am not challenging your belief, I am just saying that, organized Christianity is broken, hollow, and full of those with no faith, trying to BS their way into heaven based on money given, hours spent in Church, and a "real good Family image". Regardless of their lack of any real faith, or belief. I think a lot of it has to do with society, but folks are so wrapped around themselves they don't realize they are hollow. To worried about Soccer practice, staff meetings, and image... Whew... OK...

Anyhoo, chew on that for minute and toss it right back Bro... I understand that arguing religion is like explaining the Universe to your Rottweiler, We can go on and on and on and we are both just going to get Hungry and start drooling....
biggrin.gif


Finally if you want a system of belief That works better than Christianity try on some Hinduism, or Buddhism. Both predate Christianity by several centuries and both provide for an inner piece Christianity will never allow...
 
...I'd add a lot more, but you're right WWJD...we're all entitled to our opinions...no use in trying to change anyone's mind...

Now, where is my tape so I can wrap this damn gift?!
wink.gif
 
Wow,
Good discusion on both ends.
I will admit I side with WWJD. I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, accepted Him in high school.

I agree with Revlis about many churches being filled with people who are trying to "fake" their way into heaven. But attending church/being a believer is not about a "group", but about a personal belief.
And yes there are many, many churches, but I believe that the Bible does have examples and guidelines for a new testiment church that we as believers should look for.

Unfortunatly the term Christian has gotten very watered down to mean anyone attending church, any church, or anyone who wants to be called a Christian. The term Christian was first used in the new testiment times at Antioch and was a "bad thing". It was applied to the followers of Christ by non-christians
The term Christian means "Christ like".

We have the Christmas tree and my kids grew up with santa, but they were always reminded that this is a time we celebrate the birth of Christ, and yes I do believe that Christ was born at a different warmer season.

Is it pagen and religion mixed together, you bet. Do you take from it what you want, you should. To me Christmas is a great time to have a good time with the family. I believe that a Christian should be celebrating Christmas and Easter all year long, not just on one day. If you are a Christ-like Christian then you try and be an example as best you can, and yes many times I blow it by getting angry and upset.

Do I believe that Christ came to this earth and was born of a virgin, yes. Do I believe that Christ lived, was crusified, and rose again, yes. Do I believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, yes.

Do I believe that the belief system of Buddhism and Hinduism have a superior peace of mind, no way. I serve a living God, not one that died many, many years ago.
Phil. 4: 7
"And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."

"step"  That was me getting off my soap box.  
I would like to see all come to a saving knowledge of Christ, but appreciate any and all who will hold to an opinion or belief. Even the scriptures say "let your yes be yes and your no be no." Part of the problem of the Christian world is just as Revlis stated, that many churches are full of wishy-washy "believers" who will not take a stand for what they believe. Maybe if there was some trials to go thru for your belief, then we would really see what people truly believe.

Man, when I was reading all the posts I was wondering "how can you guys write such long posts"
I guess this one kind of got away from me.

No matter what you believe
Have a very merry ChRISTmas and Happy New Year
or
Happy Holidays, no matter what you believe.

And oh yes

Ride safe  
eyes.gif
 
Merry Christmas anyway. I'll leave you with the athiest prayer.

I don't beleive in God
And
God forgive me if I'm wrong

biggrin.gif
 
      I don't beleive in God
      And
      God forgive me if I'm wrong
Rocket, I love those kinda quotes!! hahahahha
Spirituality is ALWAYS a heated topic. But I knew you all were cool enough to deal with my little rant.
smile.gif

I can't stand posers either - and they DO wreck it for people who are searching for something. But, me being human, *I* know I am far from perfect also. Some just don't know they are posing. [insert brainwashed multitudes theories here]
And hopefully, I've never shoved my religious ideals on anybody here seeing as this is a bike forum. Heck, my signon makes enough of a statement (especially while I'm gutting people in Unreal Tournement!! hahahahaha)

"Just because >WE< don't believe something, doesn't mean it isn't true" - City of Angels 1998

Glad I provoked some opinions on this topic.
smile.gif
Remember that nothing pysical, emotional, or mental will EVER fulfill things spiritual - whether you believe in them or not.
biggrin.gif

And as always.... ALL Ideas and Opinions respected and enjoyed!

Merry CHRISTmas and Happy New X!!! ;)

smile.gif
 
I'm with you WWJD. Should be renamed "consumerism day" or around this parts, "prop up Wal-Mart day", least the stock holders have a bad fourth qtr... My clan and I will celebrate the birth of our lord Jesus Christ in a few days, nothing more. The real date inmaterial, this is the day that we choose to celebrate his birth... Not GI Joe and his kung-fu grip, not Wal-mart, not the GNP. And, even though Jesus would have rode an old Sears mini-bike, this Thursday we will ride in his name!!!! (is going to be 64 Christmas day!)
 
hey, yeah! If CHRISTmas helps out our economy [and you give within your means] I say have at it and prop up AMERICA!!!
 
WW, I would have to agree with you, the philosophy of the bible does portray a good, honest and moral lifestyle, with the exception of a few hypocricies and the fact that you can kick it with satan himself, rape, pillage, and burn, and still be accepted into the house of god as long as you take jesus into your heart before you die? its a good message as long as you dont practice it word for word?

there are other religions out there that attempt to instill goodness, morality and honesty, some of them you have to practice your entire life to be considered a good, honest, and moral human being.

I dont need to bother god, I think I know the difference between right and wrong, honesty and dishonesty, morality and immorality, and I also know the value of being true to myself and my fellow men, women and children...

what the world needs today is a religion that teaches us how to LOVE one another, one that teaches us how to help one another, and look after each other always because it's the right thing to do, regardless of race, color, creed, social status, intelligence, sex or anything else. many of our ancestors knew the importance of this and celebrated it, giving to total strangers for long periods of time. there are tribes in africa that to this day live their entire lives celebrating by giving to those that have none, and in the end they are all equal, happy, and have no regrets.

I always hope christmas season can be the time people will see each other as equals, be kind to one another, and experience the self esteem and confidence that builds each time you give what you can. it would be nice to see this sense of humanity in vogue as opposed to the opposite. the world would be a much nicer place to live...

I give to you all my blessings...
Peace and Goodwill...
 
I'm even thinking about being nice to people with hardleys on Thursday. Just a thought, hehehe...
 
Rock on, twisted! I know I'm not living unless I'm giving!!!
To that degree, CHRISTmas commercialism IS successful because people ARE GIVING.
smile.gif
It allll starts with each one of us. I take personal responsibility for my part in living and doing EXACTLY the way you describe. But I am human and therefore imperfect, so don't expect ME to be more and I will never let you down.
smile.gif


kick it with satan.. ahahahhaha why would you want to? He offers me nothing... and he tries offering me stuff all the time... [yawn]... bring it on, ya pointy earred freak! Can't touch this! hahahahahahahaha

smile.gif
 
dang rev, yer not holdin on to any WMDs are ya?
rock.gif


I didnt figure ya for satans side kick WW, I just get a little nervous when churches tell people it doesnt matter what sin you commit, you can still be forgiven if you ask. just seems a little to easy? imagine if Hitler asked for forgiveness and took jesus into his heart just days before he died, millions of jews would turn heaven into hell...
wow.gif
 
Man!!! This almost reminds me of some of the old Kerobos666 threads. Anyway, have a Merry CHRISTmas for those of us who celebrate it, and a Happy Holidays to everyone! Here's to great riding in 2004!

Postal.

cool.gif
 
Back
Top