I threw out my CHRISTmas tree...

otter, I think you misunderstand what I am saying? you said, hitler would never ask for forgiveness, because he believed what he was doing was right. I said, what if hitler had an epiphiny just before he died? for all we know he did, isnt that what being saved is, people that dont recognize jesus as thier savior one day seeing the light and taking jesus into thier hearts being saved?

so, are you saying people that "dont recognize they are sinning at the time they commit a sin are ever capable of recognizing it", therefore they will never ask for foregiveness?

or, are you saying only people that "realize they are comitting a sin at the time they are comitting one are capable of asking foregiveness"?

I hope your not saying people that believe a certain way weather its "atheism" "catholosism"
"buddah" etc. are never capable of changing thier beleifs? if thats true christians may as well stop trying to spread the word because its of no consequence? there are people that do things just as terrible as hitler that have strict religious beliefs...in fact more people have died in wars over religion than have not....

I think you see my point?
 
ok i just got a idea
(relax its just an idea after a few long days) nothing serious

when it started

the plant was like mars with little bactirea created from air and water and then bacteria  grew and just got bigger and bigger then came the small flys and maggots and they transformed over years and millions of years into dinosours with the dinos came our ancestors, the chimp then us

once people came to communacte on diffrent levels and languages they started interpeting things they saw,  read, and heard, the way they wanted and wrote them down the way they wanted others to interpet them
once they were wrote down the were translated after time and time agian and in the translations meanings got distorted and changed
once greed and jelousy came along then came cheats and thiefs  they distorted things even more  in the goal of gaing riches
and BAM you have modern day socity
a number of religons
a crap load of belifes
a ton of controdictions
a million arguments between people about what's right and what's wrong
even people who worship the same god argue about what he says and wants you to do

then BAM!
you have wars over who's god is right and who's wrong
next thing you know everthing in the world explodes in a war
the world is quiet for millions of years untill it heals from the damage we caused
and the bacteria starts all over agian in to dinosaus and monkeys and us and religions and wars and BAM it explodes all over agian and starts all over

laugh.gif
laugh.gif
laugh.gif


just kiddin
or am i
rock.gif


laugh.gif


laugh.gif
 
Twisted:

Many questions, and I don't want to write a book here, so...

What if Hitler had an epiphany[/QUOTE] assuming that by "epiphany", you mean "an illuminated discovery" and not "an appearance of a divine being", if he asked forgiveness with a sincere and repentant heart, then yes - he would be forgiven.

Isn't that what being saved is?[/QUOTE]  Yes, but having an epiphany and having accepting Christ as your savior are mutually-exclusive.  I've met people that have come face-to-face with their own destructive nature, yet relied on their own faculties to change.

...are you saying...[/QUOTE]  An illustration if you'd please: a cannibal tribe in the Congo who's never known people outside of their tribe; is it sin to kill and eat one another?  Certainly.  Do they know it?  I don't see how - to them, it's not an evil act, it's an inherent part of who they are and how they worship.  Same tribe, but now a missionary comes along and teaches them about God.  They kill and eat him.  Sin?  Yes.  Do they know it?  They do now, and will be held accountable.  

Hope that helps.

Are people capable of changing their beliefs?"[/QUOTE]  Most certainly - I was a hard-core Atheist just three short years ago.  Then, I met a man came along and showed me the fallacy that is Atheism, and he led me to Christ.  Am I gullable?  A sucker?  Doubtful - logic, reason, history, and philosophy consistently show that what I believe is the truth.  

there are people that do things just as terrible as hitler that have strict religious beliefs...[/QUOTE]
I'd like you to prove this statement.

in fact more people have died in wars over religion than have not....[/QUOTE]

That's a fallacy that's been disproven time and time and time and time again - not only is it not true, it's a an out-and-out lie.  I've heard this statement from nearly every non-theist I've talked to (and even some theists), and I just can't understand how anybody could believe such a statement.

I think you see my point[/QUOTE]

I do Sir, and I respect it.  However, I think that there are some ideas that you're basing your philosophy upon that are questionable.  If you continue to question others and yourself in searching for the truth (as you've done here), I think that you will indeed have an epiphany - I know that I certainly did.  otter-public@nospam.com - replace the "nospam" with "excite" and shoot me an email if you car to get an answer from a Christian perspective - use it to weigh against your experience and that of other "ism's".  

God Bless!

g_calatean: that's a pretty funny story!
 
Otter, huh?

"Quote
there are people that do things just as terrible as hitler that have strict religious beliefs..."

Gengus Kahn "buddist"
pol pot, "communist" practiced buddism
napolen "christian, catholic, prodestant"? hmm...
kennedy
rock.gif

gearge bush?
who pushed the button on japan, twice!?
and many many more....

"Quote
in fact more people have died in wars over religion than have not...."

prove it? funny, since this topic was generated by a beleif that a god exists, an existance that cant be proven...
heres a thought;
most wars in the middle east have been over religion since recorded history they still go on today, millions....

in fact most all wars in this world other than the wars in early american history have been over religion... atheism, communisim, etc...
so thats,

12 million to WWII, korea, hiroshima, nagasaki, all attributed to hitler and his beleifs....
2 million to the rouge
around 10 million in the middle east since recorded time...
how many attributed to communism, another masked religion...
dont forget the 5000 in the twin towers attributed to terrorist attemtping to destroy the infidels.

actually you can contribute all wars to religion or beleifs, even the civil war, many religious people beleived it was OK to enslave others, some preached it and others moved on to form groups such as the KKK. cults are religions.

if you study history you will see very few wars have been over land or money, there were a few early on in europe that spilled out into egypt, the irish fought a few small ones, the spanish, and prolly the revolutionary war. one could argue however that napolean and the spanish wars among others, were actually more about a beleif than land or money. early colonist revolted against anyone who did not share their veiws on social, economic, and political points of veiws, and that sparked many wars. actually land and money were the booty or spoils of such wars.

so if you think real hard you will come to the conclusion that most wars were based on beleifs, although not christianity, beleifs all the same. at the same time I beleive wars directly related to early christianity have higher numbers than all the present day wars. with a little research you could approximate the numbers. but I say you should prove otherwise.

Ideas? philosophy? thats the kind of "spin on words" I would expect to hear in church, my post was neither an idea or philosophy, just my opinions and I also pointed a few things out.

as far as getting a veiw from a christians perspective, I have seen too many. unfortunatly I dont see religion moving in a positive direction so its not really my thing.

funny thing, many conflicts arise over religion, seldom are they settled using it?

I like rock solid stability rather than someone or something trying to reconstruct reality through the context of words and scare tactics...

its all good to beleive what you beleive, as long as no one gets hurt....
 
Twisted

Gengus Kahn "buddist",
pol pot, "communist" practiced buddism
napolen "christian, catholic, prodestant"? hmm...
kennedy
gearge bush?
who pushed the button on japan, twice!?
and many many more....[/QUOTE]

Again, begging the question...

1) Just because a person claims to follow a given faith, it doesn't make it true
2) You cannot prove that religion (in any form) was responsible (i.e. the motivator) for any of the wars that the above mentioned started.  There is only one religion that I know of that condones murdering the innocent: Islam (not Buddhism, Catholicism, or Christianity).  They don't consider non-Muslims as "innocent", so they feel they get an instant reprive.  Therefore, your claim that the above people, and whatever wars they started, were motivated by religious factors is patently false.
3) Communism and "practicing Buddhism" is a glaring contradiction.  Communism and Atheism fit do nicely, and that is the answer to "what has killed the most people".
4) Not that it's part of the question, but add all of the deaths responsible for the above, and you've still fallen far short of the toll that lack of religion (Atheism) has taken on humanity.

most wars in the middle east have been over religion since recorded history they still go on today [/QUOTE]

That is the answer to "which religion actively condones bloodshed in order to convert others?", but it does not prove the orginal assertion true.

12 million to WWII, korea, hiroshima, nagasaki, all attributed to hitler and his beleifs....
[/QUOTE]

I fail to see how Korea had anything to do with Hitler.  Furthermore, it's a difficult proposition at best to blame Hiroshima and Nagasaki on "hitler and his beleifs"[sic]. Also, the death toll of a given war has little to do with the argument (the number of wars). If the target has moved from wars to death toll, then Atheists take first place my a mile.

how many attributed to communism, another masked religion...[/QUOTE]

Again, are we talking about wars or # of deaths? Also, I disagree with your statement: Communism is a governmental system, not a religion.  Atheism is state-mandated "anti-religion" of communism.  Communism must abolish religion, because in communism, there can be no instrisic human worth or value.  Otherwise, the entire system implodes.

actually you can contribute all wars to religion or beleifs, even the civil war, many religious people beleived it was OK to enslave others, some preached it and others moved on to form groups such as the KKK.[/QUOTE]

Every credible historian and history itself tells us that the Civil War was fought because of economics, not religion.  Additionally, the proposition that the majority of (or even many) wars are motivated by religion was defeated above.

so if you think real hard you will come to the conclusion that most wars were based on beleifs, although not christianity, beleifs all the same. [/QUOTE]

I do think real hard (trying not to sound insulted), but I think that the target is moving here.  Again, if the initial evidence to the argument is proven false, every supposition that comes after it is equally false.  You have still yet to prove that any wars (save Islamic) have been motivated by religion.

Ideas? philosophy? thats the kind of "spin on words" I would expect to hear in church, my post was neither an idea or philosophy, just my opinions and I also pointed a few things out.[/QUOTE]

1) Ideas exist and motivate men to action - they are not a "spin on words".
2) Your opinions are ideas - YOUR ideas, and they begin to show your philosophy.
3) "Philosophy" is the science of wisdom.  A philosophy is a system of ideas that men use to formulate values, it's as fundamental to thought as an idea, and also is not a "spin on words".
4) I would expect to hear about philosophy and ideas in church as well.  Not only there, I would expect to find them in conversations with other people, when reading books, when watching a movie or television, even surfing the Internet and reading this thread...  To claim that "idea" and "philosophy" are some trick words used by theists in order to somehow make people think/believe certain things is laughable and seriously undermines your credibility.

as far as getting a veiw from a christians perspective, I have seen too many[/QUOTE]
It's no secret that Christians are their own worst enemies.  I would propose to you that you have never seen a good example of Christianity.  If that is the case, then I would further propose that you look to the single example of pure faith in motion: Jesus Himself.  It's when you begin to compare the His teachings against any other, that truth is utterly defined.

I like rock solid stability rather than someone or something trying to reconstruct reality through the context of words and scare tactics...[/QUOTE]

I agree with you whole heartedly.  Lastly, may I ask - are you an Atheist or Agnostic?

Also, may I ask again to take this to email? I hate wasting H.org's bandwidth for discussions on theology (just not the place for it).
 
Ack! My worst nightmare occurrs again.
smile.gif
I've debated athiests, satanists even christians and one thing that ALWAYS seems to happen is the overbloat of information, leading to more questions, leading to less answers which makes the athiests feel nothing was solved. Keep in mind, the perspective of shunning something because you can come up with more questions than answers is STILL based on "scientific model" of proof and not some other method we have no way of determining: electricy existed before we knew about it, I trust gravity to work but I know nothing about it and all my questioning about gravity will never produce an answer that could explain it. It's a personal journey, and if you look at others you will only see thier failures in THIER journey. You gotta get on your path yourself: "I can only show you the door, you will have to go through it" [Matrix] but if you need some help to find the way, ask others for signposts, not answers.
I agree this is not the place for this kinda thing.... then again... it's only one small thread [easily skipped over]and I wonder how many NON REPLYing readers are enjoying the mental meal?
smile.gif

I felt my tree was another form of distraction, I submit that overbloat of info is ALSO yet another form of distraction. Walking the path and talking it are worlds apart.
For the record, my God has never told me to go murder people in his name. Now, my Dog told me to kill my parents once, but I had him put to sleep instead.
wink.gif


smile.gif
 
MMMMM, Yummy free exchange of ideas. Just remember folks, we are all here to rally around the Busa and Riding, we're all together on this, right?

I think the basic tenants of all religions are good, be kind to others try not to blow anyone away. It's when despots and criminals take the written words, and the beliefs of a group, uses their faith against them and leads them to greater evils than otherwise could have been done. People are smart and reasoning, small groups can still make good decisions, problem is folks with a lot of "Faith" following blindly allows horrors to occur that otherwise may have never happened...
 
Otter, as for the first quote, it seems to me if beleiving or practicing a religion motovates your entire life and that person pushes a button and kills millions this would be directly attributed to a "religion". you could say that just because someone is a devout christian doesnt mean they are a good person and are just as capable of murder as the next guy, maybe the loopholes in religion give people the sense they can be bad people and not have to pay for it down the road? my point was, just because you beleive in a certain religion doesnt mean your a good person, and just because you kill some one doesnt mean your a bad person.


the second quote, what would it matter if blood thirsty heathens slaughtered christians just because they were christians? the deaths are still attributed to religion, the bad started a war with the good because they were good? both sides would not have to be religious in order for it to be considered a war over religion, if religion is a factor then it's a "holy war" dont christians beleive they battle satin and evil every day?

quote 3, hitler started WWII and the rest were a fallout of that war and hitler was an athiest<----religion) who beleived non superior races should die (anyone who wasnt an athiest)... that opinion was in support of my comment that more people have died in wars attributed to religions that have not, and if you do some research you will find its not mathmaticians, scientists or poloticians manipulating the numbers in order to condemn religion.
maybe hitler had a vision, if he had killed everyone who wasnt an athiest all wars over religion would ceast? wars would cease. what a thought, no more wars?

quote 4, I was referring to wars and deaths, like I said earlier, religion only needs to be a variable to factor in wars. communism is a beleif, therefore could be considered a religion and a communistic society dictates which religion you can beleive in, what books you can read and so on, so its much deeper than just a governmental system. would you consider the war in Iraq a war over religion? or would you consider religious beliefs are what motovated it? maybe its about the oil?

quote 5. I disagree, what I said is pretty much the jest of those wars especially the civil war, you dont agree poeple that beleive in slavery can be religious or bad? havnt you heard the KKK say "its written in the bible"? did people that enslaved have religion or beleifs?
the war was fought for freedom, people that dont beleive in freedom do have beleifs or religions.
if religion represents all that is good, what represents all that is bad?

quote 5. its easy to say that your "idea or thoughts" dont support the fact that most wars are contributed to religion so everything else one has to say is also false, so I propose this, research every known war recorded in the middle east then research its motovation, I would do this but I am not the one in the position that has to disprove this, in a civil matter its proponderance, and I beleive my evidence out weighs yours, since the combined certitude of the entire population of the middle east is and always has been one religion or another and its well known the muslims dont like the hindues, the hindues dont like the jews, and the jews dont like the christians, so far I am in a better position to back up my opinion than you.

qoute 6, you must be using the christian definition of philosphy, even though wars over religion is the study here, no where here do I see your ideas are your philosophy,

------ phi·los·o·phy
1 a (1) : all learning exclusive of technical precepts and practical arts (2) : the sciences and liberal arts exclusive of medicine, law, and theology <a doctor of philosophy> (3) : the 4-year college course of a major seminary b (1) archaic : PHYSICAL SCIENCE (2) : ETHICS c : a discipline comprising as its core logic, aesthetics, ethics, metaphysics, and epistemology
2 a : pursuit of wisdom b : a search for a general understanding of values and reality by chiefly speculative rather than observational means c : an analysis of the grounds of and concepts expressing fundamental beliefs
3 a : a system of philosophical concepts b : a theory underlying or regarding a sphere of activity or thought <the philosophy of war> <philosophy of science>
4 a : the most general beliefs, concepts, and attitudes of an individual or group b : calmness of temper and judgment befitting a philosopher-----

quote 7, I dont consider myself to be either, hitler was an athiest so that couldnt be me. I beleive there is a god of some sort although I dont belive god is as whats described in bibles and such, maybe if you take out half from all religions and combine them? maybe god is a cumulative or all that is and has been? maybe its left to interpratation, no ones right and no ones wrong?

one thing I do know is, I know the difference between right and wrong and good and bad, I dont need a god to tell me its wrong to be bad or its good to be right, I am responsable for my own decisions and mistakes I dont want jesus or anyone else to carry my burdon, how else will I learn?
 
Wow...  As WWJD has mentioned, this exchange has gone over the hills and through the woods - there have been too many straw men to count, questions begged, and I'm not even sure we're still on target.  

The debate started with your question (stated generally): if a person does horrendous acts in his life but asks for forgiveness at the end, will he receive forgiveness (according to the Christian model)?

My response (equally general): Yes, provided it's done with a repentant heart.

Then all these straw men started dancing around and now we're talking about wars...

I've deleted the bulk of my responses, because it's going nowhere.  I would sincerely like to bring the exchange to a close, but it won't happen until the rules of debate are respected.

Please do not take this as a personal attack, but I find that those who make broad generalities and sweeping criticisms tend to not understand the nature of the question.  We've gone on for days now and you've yet to prove a single assertion with anything but your subjective will.  No facts, no proof, nothing but "I say so".  I know that you believe in how you feel, but I do not think that you fully understand what it is that you are attacking (religion) and cannot provide anything substantive to merit your arguments.

Let's stick with facts, logic, reason, and getting to the bottom of the topic at hand: ideological flights of fancy and circular reasoning will get us nowhere.

Obviously you want to address this on H.org after repeated requests to move to email, so that's fine.  My statement stands as such: no sin is so great that God cannot forgive it (according to the Christian model, if you 'd like to talk about another faith, please tell me which one and we'll deal with that accordingly).

You seem to disagree and infer that God is not able to fogive the sins of man.  If this is your position, then please provide how it is that you come to this conclusion.

Ready... fight!
 
I beleive it started when I made the statement heaven would become hell if hitler asked forgiveness and god let him in. and you said hitler wasnt capable of forgiveness because he was an athiest? somewhere down the line I mentioned most wars are fought over religion and you claimed it was the opposite? I also said many other religious people have done things just as bad as hitler...not my opinion or subjection, just facts, the pol pot was a buhddist, the pres that pushed the button on japan twice was a baptist, saddam hussein is a muslim, the list goes on and on. perhaps they were not good followers or role models of their religions, but practicing none the less.

where did I state, or infer god is not able to forgive the sins of man? I would have no way of knowing that.

I have given facts, WWII; 7 million dead, kameir rouge; 2 million, the middle east; not to mention hundreds of other wars motovated by religious beleifs. this is not my subjective will, its just how things are and nothing I had or have control over.

why do you feel I am attacking religion? I am a person that truly beleives in freedom all the way across the board, religion is what it is, it does create termoil and conflicts and people do hide behind it while doing their dirty work.

it doesnt matter what we discuss in this forum thats what its for, not much riding goin on so its something to talk about and its not much bandwidth...
 
you said hitler wasnt capable of forgiveness because he was an athiest[/QUOTE]

No sir: I said that Hitler likely would not have asked for forgiveness, I further went on to say that yes, he would be forgiven if he did so with a repentant heart.

somewhere down the line I mentioned most wars are fought over religion and you claimed it was the opposite[/QUOTE]

Correct.

I also said many other religious people have done things just as bad as hitler...not my opinion or subjection, just facts[/QUOTE]

It is not a fact until it can be proven.

pol pot was a buhddist, the pres that pushed the button on japan twice was a baptist, saddam hussein is a muslim, the list goes on and on[/QUOTE]

As stated earlier, just because a person subscribes (or even claims to subscribe) to a religion, does not mean that they are representing it, nor does it mean that they are acting according to it, nor does it mean that the religion should be judged by what that one man does.

You mention Pol Pot and how he was a Buddhist.  Please show me where senseless murder and rape are condoned by the teachings of Buddha, or anywhere else in Buddhism.  Show me a Buddhist theologian who agrees with what Pol Pot did.  Explain how it is that Pol Pot is justified in his actions according to Buddhism.

The fact is, you cannot.  Therefore, either Pol Pot was not a Buddhist or he was a Buddhist that was not acting in accordance with his faith.  In either case, dismissing Buddhism as falicious or blaming Buddhism as the motivation for Pol Pot's actions are catagorically false.

If you like, we can address every individual you mentioned, but the point does not change (yet I will defend Truman).

where did I state, or infer god is not able to forgive the sins of man[/QUOTE]

I just took the following statement to a rash conclusion:

seems more logical to forgive those that didnt realize or believe they were sinning at the time, as opposed to those that did[/QUOTE]

Sorry.  

I have given facts, WWII; 7 million dead, kameir rouge; 2 million, the middle east; not to mention hundreds of other wars motovated by religious beleifs[/QUOTE]

Giving death tolls for a certain war is not proof that that war was started, carried on, or concluded due to a religious belief!!!

why do you feel I am attacking religion?[/QUOTE]

Well, mainly because you've attributed unimagineable amounts of deaths to wars over religion.  

religion is what it is, it does create termoil and conflicts and people do hide behind it while doing their dirty work[/QUOTE]

I agree that differences in faith does create conflicts (not necessarily wars though - big stretch).  But I would like to focus on this last statement - I think it's telling.

People may "hide" behind a given faith when doing "their dirty work".  My question would be: does the faith in which they hide behind condone such activity?  It would have to, otherwise one could not hide behind it; would you agree?  Obviously, a serial rapist cannot use the Christian Bible as a defense for his acts, as there is nothing there to support rape.

In closing, I am still interested in seeing something to support the original assertion.  

g_calatean: I'm afraid I can't agree with your germ theory - it flies in the face of the very science one would use to support the argument (Laws of Thermodynamics).

However, if it would get me my 'Busa faster, I'll cop to it until the bike arrives!  
laugh.gif
 
I hope this clears any confusion...

"In biblical times

The area known as the Middle East is the home of three major world religions. In order of age, they are Judaism, Christianity and Islam. All three trace their roots back to a man named Abraham. His life and family are described in the book Jews call the Torah and Christians call the Old Testament. The story of Abraham is also in the holy book of Islam, which is called the Quran.

The stories say that Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac, who had different mothers. Ishmael was an ancestor of Mohammed, the founder of Islam, the Muslim religion. Many people in Palestine see him as their forefather.

Isaac had a son, Jacob, also called Israel, who was an early leader of the Jewish people. The modern country known as Israel has his name.

According to the holy books, Isaac's mother, Sarah, and Ishmael's mother, Hagar, were jealous of each other. The resentment was passed down through their children and their children's children. For centuries, they have fought over land that is important to their religions.

In many ways, the trouble in the Middle East is a family feud between cousins.

In modern times

At the beginning of the 20th century, Palestine, or what is present-day Israel, was controlled by the British. During World War I (1914-1918), the British promised the people of Palestine that, in exchange for support in the war, they would let the Palestinians create an Arab kingdom there. But Britain also promised the Jews the same thing.

During World War II (1939-1945), nearly 6 million Jews in Europe were killed by the Nazi Germans. Many Jewish survivors wanted a safe place they could call their home. They chose Palestine and started moving there, because of its religious importance to their faith.

Arabs who lived there weren't happy about the Jews moving in, and that was when the seeds of the current conflict were planted.

In 1947, the United Nations voted to split Palestine into two countries, one for Jews and one for Arabs. The British pulled out of the Middle East in 1948, and Israel was created. Arab countries in the region protested the Israeli state, and war broke out. Other wars followed, including the Six-Day War in 1967 and the Yom Kippur War in 1973.

In the 1980s, Palestinians and Israelis still were not getting along. Palestinians began a movement to reclaim their land. Demonstrators threw stones at Israeli soldiers, who sometimes responded by arresting or shooting them. This uprising became known as the intifada --- Arabic for "shaking off."

To prevent more bloodshed, world leaders urged Yasser Arafat, the leader of the Palestinians, to accept a solution in which Palestine and Israel could exist together. Arafat and Israeli leader Yitzhak Rabin finally signed an agreement to end the conflict in 1993. This is known as the Oslo Accord, which gave Palestinians control of two regions: the Gaza Strip and the West Bank of the Jordan River.

In 1995, Rabin was murdered by a Jewish extremist who opposed the peace agreement.

Benjamin Netanyahu, who was elected to replace Rabin, took a much tougher approach. He let Jews settle in areas that the Oslo Accord said belonged to the Palestinians, and this led to more violent clashes between Israelis and Palestinians.

Peace talks continued throughout the 1990s, but they often broke down, mostly over the issue of where people could live.

Israel's current leader, Ehud Barak, has been working with Arafat to achieve peace. They came very close to an agreement last summer when they met with President Clinton in the United States.

Deadly trouble in recent weeks

The latest crisis began Sept. 28, when an Israeli politician, Ariel Sharon, visited a site that is sacred to both Muslims and Jews and angered Palestinians by trying to claim Israel's control over the site. Palestinians responded by destroying a Jewish holy site.

In the weeks of fighting since then, more than 125 people, mostly Palestinians, have been killed.

Last week, Israeli and Palestinian leaders attended a summit in Egypt and agreed to a temporary cease-fire to end the current wave of violence. The truce proved shaky as clashes broke out in the West Bank on Thursday and Friday. And the crisis deepened Sunday when Israel declared an end to official contacts with the Palestinians. The Israeli action was in response to what it called menacing language from Arab leaders meeting in Egypt, who urged Palestinians to continue their violent uprising against Israel"**

**
 
people are fighting wars because they don't agree on philosophies [religion] and that's God's fault? people fight over who wins the superbowl too...is the superbowl evil or even have ANYTHING to do with it? sounds like PEOPLEs' problems to me. still looking for that commandment "Thou shalt slay others not believing as you do"

many people know the bible in and out but miss the whole point: application. I'm seeing a lot of well read history and factoids here and ALL OF IT still smells of distraction to me. how about practical application in TODAY's world... not what OTHERS are doing and saying what they are, but each of us PERSONALLY taking it for a trial run. see if it works. oddly enough, it does work and I apply it with out killing anyone.
smile.gif


My tree is gone because it made no sense, the manger is there because it makes more sense than a tree. i can't prove anything because I was not alive 2000 years ago, but SOMEONE was and did what they could to document it. even stranger yet is that with our modern technology, incredible cummulative brain trust via instant worldwide communication, we are STILL unable to come up with anything better. daily more and more people turn to chemistry and psychiatry to help fix, cover or numb something that they can't even explain what it is... like electricity to a caveman.... and you're telling me a bunch of hebrew sheep hurders figuered it all out and came up with the best "fictional" plan to control humanity via a supreme being dishing out morals?? Come on now, can't we modern human beans do better than that? I'm still waiting.
smile.gif

Glad you guys are keeping this respectful. And I'm learning alot about history too!
biggrin.gif
I feel bad for their mistakes, but it doesn't change what I see working here, now, today.

smile.gif
 
ok i just got a idea
(relax its just an idea after a few long days) nothing serious

when it started

the plant was like mars with little bactirea created from air and water and then bacteria  grew and just got bigger and bigger then came the small flys and maggots and they transformed over years and millions of years into dinosours with the dinos came our ancestors, the chimp then us

   
And people say I have faith?  
biggrin.gif
 
biggrin.gif


Have enjoyed reading all the "information" form all party's involved.
Like I stated before I have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, and believe that the Bible is 100% true and is the inspired word of God.
I also believe that until you accept Christ as your presonal savior the Bible will never make complete sense to you.

It does seem like we have gotten off the beaten path that WWJD started.

Man oh man, feels just like a family gathering.  j/k  
smile.gif


Just remember to wave when you see a brother busa riding.

Ride safe  
eyes.gif


biggrin.gif
 
Otter there is more than that if you care to reserch, unfortunately over time occupational and religious wars has destroyed much history, including the seven wonders of the world. many were killed in wars with no evidence of what may have started them? and civilizations disapeared leaving no clues, only the destruction remains, like the pyramids of egypt?

WW, I agree you are correct in the concept the world would be a better place to live if we all lived by the philosophies spelled out in the bible at least our own personal lives may be more rewarding. the bible does outline a good honest moral lifestyle, no one can argue with that. but the fact still remains as a world we are a whole as a society and as the world progresses the closer we get. I feel the battle over religion needs to play out one way or another so we can have order and move on as a species, or "beans" as you will call us :-)...

I dont think historians, linguists, scientists, archiologists or any of the other related feilds are trying to distract anyone or anything. they are simply in search of the origin of man, solid evidence, whatever it may be, as opposed to books written 2000 years ago. the dilemma is they are finding artifacts to the contrary so there is conflicting evidence. I have seen documentaries and read articles where archiology, linguists and historians have tried to peice together the time continuim in bible and there is a lot of substance to stories outlined in the bible, they have found cities that were mentioned in the bible, scriptures of people mentioned and so on. many continue trying to peice it together just as the bible describes. I think mankind will continue persue the origin of man untill they find solid evidence one way or another, weather it points to adam and eve, or something else, its our nature...

you have faith gaw, its a good thing.....

happy new year....
 
I think mankind will continue persue the origin of man untill they find solid evidence one way or another, weather it points to adam and eve, or something else, its our nature...
but nobody asks WHY we bother to do this? I'm asking.... why? EITHER WAY, IF an answer could ever be found, what would be the positive results be? Nothing for anybody, compared to the time lost getting to the answer. Harsh example: would you feel best spending your time trying to cure the cancer that is killing your father, or spending that same time enjoying your fathers company? People and life are all that really matters.

The questioning IS the distraction... it distracts away from really LIVING life. My tree was small a symptom. That's all I have to say about that.
smile.gif
 
Twisted,

I hope this clears any confusion...[/QUOTE]

It's a cut/paste from a website talking about history that is irrelevant to the argument.  I know the history of Israel, and can trace my roots there.  You've outlined evidence that supports the assertion that Islam is a violent religion - I will not argue that at all.

However, you have still yet to prove that "more wars are started started over religion", which has nothing to do with the original point about salvation.

Otter there is more than that if you care to reserch,[/QUOTE]

I've been doing comparitive religion studies for better than 10 years; I think I have a pretty good grasp on what I'm talking about.  Why do you think I'm making the argument against "religious wars" in the first place!?!?!?

religious wars has destroyed much history[/QUOTE]

I've said this before: aside from any that involve Muslims, can you prove that any war was fought over religion?  It's going on three pages of threads but you haven't been able to name one!  You present no evidence to support such assertions.  Either provide proof or drop the argument.

civilizations disapeared leaving no clues, only the destruction remains, like the pyramids of egypt?[/QUOTE]

Umm, Twisted?  The Egyptians are still here, and they know all about their culture - they wrote it on so many walls that eventually, they invented what we now call paper (easier than chiselling into stone).

the fact still remains as a world we are a whole as a society and as the world progresses the closer we get[/QUOTE]

The closer we get to what?  A one-wold socio-economic system?  It's coming, but I wouldn't call it progress!

So anyway, all I'm looking for is some substantive proof to the claim that "more wars are started over religion than not".   It seems simple to prove - just list off all the wars mankind has on record, and highlight the ones that started over religion.  So far, we've got all/most of them that have to do with Islam.

It's a good start, but it falls very, very short of a majority, which is the minimum target.

BTW: thanks very much for keeping this thing civil.  I can't tell you how many times debating theology turns ugly and ends up with personal attacks...  I think it's the modus operandi for non-theists.  But I respect you (Twisted) as being mature enough not to.  That being said, I still don't agree!
laugh.gif
 
Back
Top