I threw out my CHRISTmas tree...

ok i just got a idea
(relax its just an idea after a few long days) nothing serious

when it started

the plant was like mars with little bactirea created from air and water and then bacteria  grew and just got bigger and bigger then came the small flys and maggots and they transformed over years and millions of years into dinosours with the dinos came our ancestors, the chimp then us

   
And people say I have faith?  
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come on i was just kiddin

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Bravo, its amazing how this has been keep at a civilized level
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Honestly, warms my heart. Perhaps humanity has a chance
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hehe

Its nice to see there isnt someone saying: lets burn him/stone him/drown him/lets all start a fund to send him to canada.
 
WW, why? its human nature...

Otter, the cut and paste is a pretty accurate description of what has been going on in the middle east since history has been recorded, and its is directly related to my comment that "more people have died in wars over religion" than have not. what hitler did in WWII is prolly enough but there are many others.

the cut and paste states that the middle east has been violent throughout history and it still is today, and the three major religions are the players, common knowledge?

its odd to me that someone who beleives in a god or religion based on the words of a book written a thousand years ago, needs "solid proof"(whatever that is?) and not accepting the words of historians, jurnalists and live footage of the six day war, yom kippur war, WWII? and a few others, very odd indeed?
yom kippur war 1973
six day war 1967
you really should define exactly what you mean by solid proof so I may provide some...

by "research" I meant, researching past wars and violence in the middle east...

aside from any that involve muslims? I think everyone knows almost all of them involve muslims, athiest or one trying to remove another? if your trying to defend christianinity by sying they havnt started any wars recently you wont get an argument from me, but talk to anyone in the middle east and they will tell you they have been fighting over religion since anyone can remember, and they still are today. the taliban? alqueda? religion also sparks terrorism....

true there are people living in egypt today, certainly no ancient egyptians exist unless there are a few hiding out that are around 6000 yrs old. what exactly happened at the intermediate period 2134-2040 BC seventh to tenth dynasty is not certain, there are several theories, the nile may have recessed, desiese, violence, but most of the egyptians vanished and throughout the history of egypt was infiltrated by foreigners and many wars were fought so its doubtful there are any ancient egyptians are left. Egypt is another land filled with the termoil of wars over religion especially the greco roman period...


the closer we get to what? the closer WE get as humans. the easier it is to reach one another on a global scale, the easier to spread beleifs, the easier to destroy one another over beleifs. 300 years ago americans werent really concerned about who fought over what in asia and europe, they came to america to get away from that mentality and start a new and better way of life free from violence and control over ones beleifs. unfortunatly modern technology has given these religious fanatics the ability to reach our country threatening our way of life. as technology grows the closer we will grow as a worlwide community, so the need to settle these religious differences once and for all is ever increasing....

it doesnt really matter if we agree or not, you may be misunderstanding most of what I say prolly because of my poor grammar. its cold rainy here most of the time and I have been everywhere on the internet allready so it gives me something to do.

I will have to post the wars/religion numbers later... since you wont...
 
Why would the one BE Jesus and the OTHER not be?

I believe that the visual that you show as Jesus IS a formation of what Western Civilization WISHES and WANTS Him to look like.

Have you seen ANY natives from that area that resembles anything like that person you have shown there? No.

It is like the vision that is of GOD, isn't it a man in a white robe with a white beard. That is a modern Western visualization.

No one person KNOWS what GOD looks like!!

So, unless you are clairvoyant and do know, you should possibly mention to the government when and where the next terrorist strike will be.

But, because I don’t think you are clairvoyant or anyone else does know what God or Jesus truly looks like, that notice will not be happening any time soon.

So, my point is that the clown could as easily be Jesus as could the “WHITE MANâ€￾ with the beard and thorns in his head. I don’t deny that the thorns were a part of the crucifying of Christ as he was, nor do I deny Him as my savior, however, I do believe that the vision that the Western Civilization holds fearfully on to is wrongly interpreted, to suit fragile America.

The interpretations are as blind as most descriptions.

Why, because, we are just human and we do not know everything there is to know.
 
man! Wow! I was only making a joke.
but my FIRST response was gonna be "Sure it could be" but I posted a joke instead.
 
I have seen painting of jesus where he is definitally black. I have also seen pictures of a black santa clause, which is insane because black people hate cold weather, they are a "tropical people" or so i heard on gone in 60 seconds
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j/k



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Twisted:

its is directly related to my comment that "more people have died in wars over religion"[/QUOTE]

You haven't proven this, you cannot prove this, and no amount of side-stepping is going to change it.  You have sufficiently proven that Islam is a violent religion, and most (if not all) wars involving Islam are fought because of religion.  Bravo - now all you have to do is 1) prove that Islam is represented in the majority of the wars throughout mankind and 2) prove that they were all wars "over religion".  Iran and Iraq fought against each other, but was it "over religion"?

Twisted - your comment was made as fact.  I challenge you to prove it.  The fact of the matter is that you cannot.

BTW: what ever happened to the issue of Hitler and salvation?  That was the original question, but was quickly glossed over in favor of the "wars" topic - what happened there?

the cut and paste states that the middle east has been violent throughout history and it still is today, and the three major religions are the players, common knowledge?[/QUOTE]

Christians, Muslims, and Hindus are have been and still are fighting in the Middle East?  No, I would guess that your statement is NOT "common knowledge"

Also, I've stated (three times now, I think) that I agree that Islam is a violent religion - it still does not make your comments about wars true.

its odd to me that someone who beleives in a god or religion based on the words of a book written a thousand years ago, needs "solid proof"[/QUOTE]

What's odd to me is that someone who hasn't provided any credible evidence to assert his statements would continually (and I mean continually) misrepresent factual data.  Please indulge me here:

1) You said that Christians don't "recognize the fact that dinosours[sic] existed" - Easily disproven: I'm a Christian and I believe that dinosaurs did exist, so does WWJD.
2) "More people have died in wars over religion than not" - Easily disproven: two Atheists (Stalin and Hitler) account for at least 25 million dead: provide a body count higher and prove that they "died in wars over religion", and I'll start adding more.
3) You assert that Atheism is a religion - Easily disproven: Atheism is anti-god and anti-religion.
4) You state that WWII was a "war over religion" - easily disproven: Germany (Hitler - Atheist) was allied with Italy (Mussolini - Fascist totalinarian( was allied with Japan (Hirohito - Shinto).
5) You attribute the deaths under the Khmer Rouge and Soloth Sar (Pol Pot) to a "war over religion" - Easily disproven: Pol Pot founded a communist government and destroyed religious establishments.
6) You attribute the American Civil War to a "war over religion" - Easily disproven: the Civil War was a war over economic and the interpretation of State vs Federal rights.
7) You claim that "communism is a beleif[sic], therefore could be considered a religion "  Easily disproven: Communism is a form of government based on an atheist philosphy (read #3).  
8) You claim that the Bible is a thousand years old and infer that because I believe in it, somehow all of my conclusions are suspect - Easily disproven, but please read on...

Based on the lack of credible evidence, and your unwillingness to support it, I can only come to the conclusion that your comment holds no merit.  About supporting arguments...

You told me that I ought to prove that your statement is wrong.  You said that you are "not the one in the position that has to disprove this".

I disagree.  You made the comment, you prove it!  You pull arguments out of thin air and expect me to disprove them?  Backwards reasoning at best, as it's not on me to disprove your comments, but on you to support what you said!  That's OK, because I know you can't prove that "more people have died in wars over religion than not". Seems you do not.   But in hopes of eventually getting somewhere, I'll chime in with a statement of my own.  

Ready?

***Nowhere near the amount of people have died in wars over religion than wars due to anything else.***

Now, before you ask, I'll prove it (and I'll do so only using your failed arguments):

Pol Pot + Hitler + Stalin = 28 to 33 million dead +/- and all Atheists
WWI = 15 million including Armenian slaughter  and started because of the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand (then all Hell broke loose)
WWII = 40 million *not including murders directly related to Hitler (Jews, Pol'l, etc counted above)  Started by a pair of Atheists and a a Shinto god-monarch

There: using only the wars that YOU brought up, I have provided THREE figures to support my claim.

Care to refute?

If not, then care to start another argument that you won't agree with?  How about this:

The Christian Bible is the most historically supported and accurate ancient text ever written.

Please: you don't get both at once...  If you pick "Bible", then you agree that your "wars" comment has no merit and no basis in fact.
 
I will start from the top with YOUR definitions;

1. it was my understanding adam and ever are 25,000 yrs old and a short time before that god created heaven and earth, quote the contradiction from the bible...

2. you'll need to start finding more numbers for your side. see #3
stalin and hitler were athiests, they wanted to kill everyone who wasnt what? answer: athiest. so they wanted to kill everyone that was what? answer: religious. very good...
these wars were started over religion, THE FACT YOU HAD IT! because if everyone was communists or athiest, there would have been no wars and no one would have been killed. so theres 25 million back to my side....why is that so hard to understand?

3. since websters is the most renoun source for definitions I went with them, note #2...
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re·li·gion·less adjective

4. what you say may be true, but it doesnt revert from the fact hitler made it clear he wanted a world of supreme beings and that meant anyone who was not like him....

5. I guess you answered that one but didnt see it? yes he destroyed religious buildings,? why...he was a commie.

6. although I wouldnt exactly say it was directly over religion, I would say more over beleifs, some beleived in freedom and some didnt. those that didnt backed it up with religion where they claimed it was OK under god to have slaves? the civil war was fought over slavery, that also is very common knowledge?

8. I beleive you have part of it right, communism is controlled by a government, much like a democracy is controlled by the people, its the idea that I used in context, here is the definition...note # 2 a

Pronunciation: 'käm-y&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French communisme, from commun common
Date: 1840
1 a : a theory advocating elimination of private property b : a system in which goods are owned in common and are available to all as needed
2 capitalized a : a doctrine based on revolutionary Marxian socialism and Marxism-Leninism that was the official ideology of the U.S.S.R. b : a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production c : a final stage of society in Marxist theory in which the state has withered away and economic goods are distributed equitably d : communist systems collectively...






hitler and the pol pot combined have killed more people in modern wars than all other modern wars, there is something I dont think you are taking into consideration, hitler was an athiest, athiesm is a religion, the jews are religious as well, hitler wanted to kill the jews because they were christians practicing judaism, hitler would have killed people of all other religions if he could have, he belived in a world of "supreme beings". WWII was not an occupational war, not in hitlers mind at least, and he started that war, the remainder of the jewish population fled to Isreal and the likes and are still being killed by the muslims who beleive everyone should die that is not a muslim, this is old school knowledge?

stalin was a communist, communism is a beleif and is much like the muslim beleif, they beleive society should be controlled by it with no rights to practice religion or beleive any other way?
that is why so many people hated communism, it was total control over everything you did....

the pol pot was a buddist and communist, although what happened in cambodia was more genocide than a war, it was carried out by the kamer rouge led by pol pot who was a fanatic much the same as hitler...

"Pol Pot declared "Year Zero" and began a radical program to create an idealized agrarian communist society. He crushed social institutions such as banking and RELIGION and emptied cities of their inhabitants."**

not to mention all the modern day wars in the middle east that we all know are over religion, muslim and islamic yes, but the christians are right in the middle of it and are not wanted in that region...yet they choose to stay?

colonists fought for the same reasons, anyone that did not want to conform to their system of taxations and governmental control were to die, and some of that made its way to america via the french, they wanted to colonize america and run it the way they see fit according to their beleifs and standards...

do we really need to get into the cruesades and thge wars over holy lands of BC and AC?, there were many in asia and africa throughout history...

and just by using the numbers you have provided, thats if you dont consider WWI had anything to do with communism, atheism, or religion, which I do.
you are still off....so you havnt proven anything...

"The Christian Bible is the most historically supported and accurate ancient text ever written" I have to wonder where you come up with this stuff? historically supported? what exactly does that mean? please use a common source for your interpretations such as websters, grolier, encarta etc, to define historically supported. the only thing that supports the bible is the bible?
of course those that wrote the bible used historical observations written by others to provide some timelines, they would of had to rely on historical writings because it covers more than one generation, so the authors could not have witnessed everything in the bible. but the only timelines that are accurate are the ones closest to the birth of christ? I would like to know of other books written during this timeline the bible that mentioned noahs ark, the parting of the red sea, water into wine and god in the same manner as described in the bible....


**
 
Okay, I've avoided this thread long enough. Time to jump in. Let me first of all say that discussions like this can be very beneficial depending on how you take it. I have enjoyed reading all of your comments, even though I may or may not agree with some of you. You all have demonstrated the ability to share ideas and to listen (or to read) to the ideas of others. That's one of the things that make this country great, our freedom of expression.

Now, I have a challenge for those of you out there who are skeptical about Christianity. Go and buy yourself a copy of The Holy Bible, if you don't already have one. Read it. Give its words time to soak into your mind just like you would any other book. Seek out life-applicable truths in it. Try to apply them to YOUR life. Now, if you do this and give it an honest chance, you will begin to see changes in your life, for the better, and you will experience God's positive influence in your life. It is indeed a spiritual thing, a spiritual experience with real-life results.

Take my challenge if you wish. If you don't, no hard feelings. We're all still cool here with being fellow Busa riders. And, if you are interested in learning how to live eternally in Heaven after you die, e-mail me and I'll share the plan with you. Regardless, let me just say again that I appreciate your open mindedness in this thread and the way we respect each other. Take care and have a great New Year!

Postal.
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It shouldn't take a page of info to support such a simple assertion.  Twisted: where's the beef?  As to your responses: so many inaccuracies, so little time...

Here we go:

it was my understanding adam and ever are 25,000 yrs old and a short time before that god created heaven and earth, quote the contradiction from the bible...[/QUOTE]

Straw man: this has nothing to do with proving the original challenge.

stalin and hitler were athiests, they wanted to kill everyone who wasnt what? answer: athiest. so they wanted to kill everyone that was what? answer: religious. very good...
[/QUOTE]

Please don't patronize me - it's insulting.  Especially considering your comments are grossly innacurate.

Hilter wanted a super race - the very embodiment of Neitzche's Superman; this meant eliminating everyone who didn't fit the mold.  Hitler and Stalin murdered gays and the deaf, and the blind, and the lame, and the terminally sick, and those with disfigurements, and Unkrainians... and on and on and on... all regardless of religious persuasion.  Stalin executed Russians on outlying border countries just so they wouldn't have the idea to cross over into other countries (like Finland, etc).  As a matter of documented fact, Stalin even murdered people suspected of being Nazi sympathizers!  All of these has ZERO do do with what religion the people belonged to and definitively proves that WWII was NOT a "war over religion".

1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance[/QUOTE]

Great, you can use a dictionary - now look up "atheist" and compare it to these definitions and explain how it is that atheism is the "worship of God or the supernatural".

although I wouldnt exactly say it [Civil War] was directly over religion[/QUOTE]

Hey, you were the one that used it as an argument to support your assertion...  

athiesm is a religion[/QUOTE]

Again, go to Webster's, review the definitions for "atheism" and "religion" and re-evaluate your statement.  

although what happened in cambodia was more genocide than a war[/QUOTE]

That's the second time you've refuted your own evidence.  Remember, it was you who brought Pol Pot and the Civil War into this.  You used them as examples to support your assertion - they don't.  Now I'm arguing the exact opposite position with your arguments, and you try to refute them?  This is classic!!!

not to mention all the modern day wars in the middle east that we all know are over religion, muslim and islamic yes, but the christians are right in the middle of it and are not wanted in that region...yet they choose to stay?[/QUOTE]

Straq man.  BTW: please point out to me a Christian nation that is "right in the middle" of the region?  While you're at it, please explain why it is that people that live there should move just because "they are not wanted"...  


Bottom line: my argument stands because you cannot show that
1) Atheism is a religion
2) WWII was a "war over religion"

I don't have time, but will definitely come back later...
 
hehehehe otter, I use webster a lot also in discussion as it seems to be common ground to work from.  hard to stand on the bible when sometimes people just think it's great fiction.

I just thought of something: people NOT practicing religion are 'warring' everyday with others around them also not practicing**.  I submit more people are killed, hurt, abused, damaged physically and emotionally by the tiny HIDDEN daily wars, than all the wars of history combined.... turn on the evening news and start counting casulties, I don't think anyone could keep up with that count. count for a week, average out the daily's, multiply it times maybe 100 for the sources you DON'T hear from, add them up for all the years there were no wars going, I'm betting it's a very large number.

Humans are all casulties of the hidden war of good vs evil going on everyday.  Religious or not, that war exists.
my extended 2cents on this whole war thang.

** Yes, christians war with each other also, we're all still imperfect humans



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Go and buy yourself a copy of The Holy Bible, if you don't already have one. Read it. Give its words time to soak into your mind just like you would any other book. Seek out life-applicable truths in it. Try to apply them to YOUR life. Now, if you do this and give it an honest chance, you will begin to see changes in your life, for the better, and you will experience God's positive influence in your life. It is indeed a spiritual thing, a spiritual experience with real-life results.

Take my challenge if you wish.   And, if you are interested in learning how to live eternally in Heaven after you die, e-mail me and I'll share the plan with you. Regardless, let me just say again that I appreciate your open mindedness in this thread and the way we respect each other.
If you believe in being open-minded, then you should also go pick up a copy of the 'Qu`ran' and read it from cover to cover and ask yourself HOW CAN ONE BELIEVE THAT THEIR ONE WAY IS THE ONLY WAY TO GOD?

How can "Overzealot Christians" be so blind as to think their way is the only way, is beyond me!?!?!

!Would! God/Ala/Sifu/Holy Spirit/ or whatever your faith calls ^^^>>>(or whatever direction you want to point) 'Him', being a loving almighty God that, he/she/unsex(in context) is, WILL EXCLUDE others from His Kingdom on the final day because they DID NOT read the Bible or believe in Christianity?  I don't believe so!

I believe he will not exclude the likes of Hindus, Mormans, Buddists, Muslems or other faiths that believe and follow 'Gods' teachings.

I have taken your challenge, many years, (probably) before you were on this earth.

Since September 11th, 2001, haven't we learned anything about other worlds and their beliefs? Or, have most of us been in a closet, still thinking that 'OUR' way is the only way!

I don't think so. Why? Because my mind is open.



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Go and buy yourself a copy of The Holy Bible, if you don't already have one. Read it. Give its words time to soak into your mind just like you would any other book. Seek out life-applicable truths in it. Try to apply them to YOUR life. Now, if you do this and give it an honest chance, you will begin to see changes in your life, for the better, and you will experience God's positive influence in your life. It is indeed a spiritual thing, a spiritual experience with real-life results.

Take my challenge if you wish.   And, if you are interested in learning how to live eternally in Heaven after you die, e-mail me and I'll share the plan with you. Regardless, let me just say again that I appreciate your open mindedness in this thread and the way we respect each other.
If you believe in being open-minded, then you should also go pick up a copy of the 'Qu`ran' and read it from cover to cover and ask yourself HOW CAN ONE BELIEVE THAT THEIR ONE WAY IS THE ONLY WAY TO GOD?

How can "Overzealot Christians" be so blind as to think their way is the only way, is beyond me!?!?!

!Would! God/Ala/Sifu/Holy Spirit/ or whatever your faith calls ^^^>>>(or whatever direction you want to point) 'Him', being a loving almighty God that, he/she/unsex(in context) is, WILL EXCLUDE others from His Kingdom on the final day because they DID NOT read the Bible or believe in Christianity?  I don't believe so!

I believe he will not exclude the likes of Hindus, Mormans, Buddists, Muslems or other faiths that believe and follow 'Gods' teachings.

I have taken your challenge, many years, (probably) before you were on this earth.

Since September 11th, 2001, haven't we learned anything about other worlds and their beliefs? Or, have most of us been in a closet, still thinking that 'OUR' way is the only way!

I don't think so. Why? Because my mind is open.
Cookie: You raise questions that people have raised for many years. Problem is, Jesus Christ said that He was the only way to the Father. Jesus is the one you have a problem with, not us Christians. We simply believe that Jesus IS the only way to salvation. The Holy Bible, God's only true word, teaches this. I came to this realization from in-depth study, not by accepting what others taught. And yes, I have read the others. They are full of "spritual teaching," but theologically, regarding eternity, they have so many holes in them it isn't even funny. My challenge is still on.
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I know that 25,000 yr old comment had nothing to do with war/death ratio, but you mentioned you beleived in prehistory and I gave my answer to why I thought what I said. I was hoping you would quote the bible where it gives the age of the earth? not for any specific reason.

all I have to say at this point is like most every other christian I know you will continue to change the context or meaning or opinion I set forth, I can say you are a good christian. at first I thought you misunderstood what I was saying. but its clear you only want to alter my meaning to defend your beleifs. although I dont beleive you see them, many of your statements reinforce my opinions, "people are willing to go to great lenghts to defend their religion" also you dont seem to see the obviuos, you would not consider genocide a war? or people killed by the millions because of their religious beleifs are death atributed to religious beleifs?

religion is defined as ones beleifs as being a religion, athism defines someone not BELEIVING in god an athiest. so by beleiving one way or another you are religious, kinda makes sense why they came up with the term agnostic doesnt it? some people dont want to be associated with religion whatsoever.

as far as hitler goes, it really doesnt matter what religion he was if any, HE KILLED 7 MILLION JEWS BECAUSE OF THEIR RELIGIOUS BELEIFS PERIOD, because some of them were sick, deaf, gay, blind etc. has nothing to do with it, that comment was just another attempt on your part to miconstrue the truth and spin the story. that mindset will only seperate us from the truth, not get us closer?

as far as a christian nation being right in the middle of the region, there you are again "misquoting me" I said the christians are right in the middle of it and are not wanted that region, meaning; "the muslims and Islams want the jews out of Isreal"... these are the same jews that fled from europe and hitler, it seems their religious beleifs still plagues them?

I hope you or anyone else dont think I somehow condone this behavior, I beleive anyone has the right to beleive what they want as long as no one gets hurt.

I beleive your argument only stands true in your mind....
 
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