My pleasure, it the least I can do for this board. So much great information here, cant ask for a better group of fellow riders.
Motorcycle Safety Topic of the Week
- Thread starter ridercoach
- Start date
Great info, thanks Coach!
If you want to clearly illustrate to yourself what counter-steering is, find a nice safe place and try this. (Warning! This is not safe try it at your own risk!) Ride with one hand, whichever you are most comfortable with. If you are riding with your right hand and you want to go to the right, press forward on the right hand grip as if you are trying to turn the steering head counter clockwise (you are). The bike will lean to the right. If you are riding with your right hand and want to go to the left, pull the right hand grip back as if you are trying to turn the steering head clockwise. The bike will lean to the left. Rotating the steering head in one direction will cause the bike to lean in the other direction, hence counter-steering.
What is happening is that your steering input causes the front tire to move out from under the center of gravity of the bike, and due to gravity, the shape of the tire, and many other factors, the bike leans the opposite way. Once the bike is leaned over it is the profile of the tires that is actually making the bike go around the curve. The reason that you have to maintain pressure on the grip to stay leaned over is that the bike is constantly trying to right itself and go straight, you know rake, trail, gyroscopic effects and all that stuff.
I've found this one handed method to be good practice for riding curves. It helps make counter-steering a natural reaction and seems to help you choose better lines, probably from a sense of self preservation.
If you want to clearly illustrate to yourself what counter-steering is, find a nice safe place and try this. (Warning! This is not safe try it at your own risk!) Ride with one hand, whichever you are most comfortable with. If you are riding with your right hand and you want to go to the right, press forward on the right hand grip as if you are trying to turn the steering head counter clockwise (you are). The bike will lean to the right. If you are riding with your right hand and want to go to the left, pull the right hand grip back as if you are trying to turn the steering head clockwise. The bike will lean to the left. Rotating the steering head in one direction will cause the bike to lean in the other direction, hence counter-steering.
What is happening is that your steering input causes the front tire to move out from under the center of gravity of the bike, and due to gravity, the shape of the tire, and many other factors, the bike leans the opposite way. Once the bike is leaned over it is the profile of the tires that is actually making the bike go around the curve. The reason that you have to maintain pressure on the grip to stay leaned over is that the bike is constantly trying to right itself and go straight, you know rake, trail, gyroscopic effects and all that stuff.
I've found this one handed method to be good practice for riding curves. It helps make counter-steering a natural reaction and seems to help you choose better lines, probably from a sense of self preservation.
I must be miss understanding you. Press Forward? Like I want to turn the handle bars? I belive its a lot easier to press down. Try this, ride with one hand, lets say right hand and press down on the handgrip then tell me what the bike does. I have heard on the track that at really highspeed cornering some riders press down then press slightly forward. But never for normal riding.
Good advice for novices, no doubt. I agree that the rider's mind should be on "press right, go right," not on "lean right, go right." The same action is accomplished, but it is the thinking that is different. Mind is everything! This is very Zen thinking, which is correct thinking. Besides, the "press" (vs. lean) thought will benefit the rider in a high speed swerve/object avoidance, as it'll place the bike off the line of impact sooner. Chance favors the prepared mind.
One caveat: counter-steering works at low speeds, too. You'll have to shift your weight to the outside peg (putting the butt cheek on the outside of the seat helps, too), but, with constant throttle, you can scrape the pegs safely in first gear at parking lot speeds. I don't like scraping pegs, but I love making a sharp, pretty corner even at low speeds. Check out David Hough's _Street Strategies: A Survival Guide for Motorcyclists_. He has another GREAT text, which should supercede the MSF "handbook", _ Proficient Motorcycling : The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well_.
One caveat: counter-steering works at low speeds, too. You'll have to shift your weight to the outside peg (putting the butt cheek on the outside of the seat helps, too), but, with constant throttle, you can scrape the pegs safely in first gear at parking lot speeds. I don't like scraping pegs, but I love making a sharp, pretty corner even at low speeds. Check out David Hough's _Street Strategies: A Survival Guide for Motorcyclists_. He has another GREAT text, which should supercede the MSF "handbook", _ Proficient Motorcycling : The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well_.
Thanks for the input VFRGuy008. I think what your looking for at low speeds is called Counter weight technique. Counter steering is only used at higher speeds. Counter weight is just as you said, counter the weight of the bike by putting your weight to the outside peg. So in other words move your butt to the outside of the turn and put your weight on the outside peg. You still have to turn the handle bars in the direction you want to go. Unless you are flying through a tight u-turn.Good advice for novices, no doubt. I agree that the rider's mind should be on "press right, go right," not on "lean right, go right." The same action is accomplished, but it is the thinking that is different. Mind is everything! This is very Zen thinking, which is correct thinking. Besides, the "press" (vs. lean) thought will benefit the rider in a high speed swerve/object avoidance, as it'll place the bike off the line of impact sooner. Chance favors the prepared mind.
One caveat: counter-steering works at low speeds, too. You'll have to shift your weight to the outside peg (putting the butt cheek on the outside of the seat helps, too), but, with constant throttle, you can scrape the pegs safely in first gear at parking lot speeds. I don't like scraping pegs, but I love making a sharp, pretty corner even at low speeds. Check out David Hough's _Street Strategies: A Survival Guide for Motorcyclists_. He has another GREAT text, which should supercede the MSF "handbook", _ Proficient Motorcycling : The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well_.
Ridercoach,
No, you read right. I was not trying to describe proper riding technique, just a method of clearly illustrating counter-steering where one can see that if you "steer" one way the bike goes the other way. Press and lean is definitely the way but a novice might not understand what is actually happening or what counter-steering actually means if all they have learned is to press and lean. Press right - go right, press left - go left doesn't jibe with the term "counter-steering" unless you know what is actually happening when you press. I think the main reason that pressing down instead of pushing forward is best is because with the pressing method your steering input is not as abrupt. If you never have, give the push / pull method a try and you will find that it takes less force and leans faster = not as safe. Pressing moderates your input. But you can counter-steer a bike by pushing forward, pulling back, pressing down, or pulling up, on the hand grip, any action that results in the steering head rotating.
No, you read right. I was not trying to describe proper riding technique, just a method of clearly illustrating counter-steering where one can see that if you "steer" one way the bike goes the other way. Press and lean is definitely the way but a novice might not understand what is actually happening or what counter-steering actually means if all they have learned is to press and lean. Press right - go right, press left - go left doesn't jibe with the term "counter-steering" unless you know what is actually happening when you press. I think the main reason that pressing down instead of pushing forward is best is because with the pressing method your steering input is not as abrupt. If you never have, give the push / pull method a try and you will find that it takes less force and leans faster = not as safe. Pressing moderates your input. But you can counter-steer a bike by pushing forward, pulling back, pressing down, or pulling up, on the hand grip, any action that results in the steering head rotating.
Thank you for clarifying DeWarrior. I was just misunderstanding...
Vero Beach huh, we have a few others that are planning a ride here in Florida you would be a welcome rider to join.
Vero Beach huh, we have a few others that are planning a ride here in Florida you would be a welcome rider to join.
Thanks Coach, A ride with some other enthusiasts would be great. I might be hard pressed to find the time however, depending on when and where. New twins in the house, both with colic, and buried at work lately. Would love to get away from it all for a ride if possible though.
sTRadaBuSSa
Registered
very good advice! every rides course that ive attended focussed alot on counter-steering. and it works!
1127 TO 1299
Registered
easy
Big Thanks and Credit to Rider Coach... He put a lot of effort into these...
Learn to turn for Fug's sake... You'll die if you cannot figure this one out... Remember I said it, that way just before they Zip your Fuggin Bag, the last thing you'll be thinking of is "That Prick Rev Was right..."
HiYaBruceA
Registered
To expand on Cloud 9's original question, the fastest line through a constant radius turn is not symmetrical on its entry point and exit. Because the entry speed is lower than your apex and exit speeds, you can take a deep entry point and flick the bike into more of a turn there, more of a hook shape. If you do this on the outside of the track or lane, your deep entry further allows you to see through more of the turn, and you now have the bike in a position where the apex and exit is less of an arc. It's a beautiful thing!
Once the bike is leaned you roll on the throttle smoothly through the remainng more manageable curve, whose shortest distance is through the apex, or inside, and your acceleration carries you to the outside of the track/lane. And if you hang way off the bike you can lean it less, thus saving your excess available lean angle for contingencies, such as a surprise decreasing radius turn or too much speed.
I've only recently learned not to charge into the entry point at high speed. I used to do this in Porsche Club autocrosses and go-kart races. Finally, after digesting several books on high performance motorcycle riding, I've been convinced to enter turns more slowly, thus avoiding overbraking and it's related loss of stability and loss of more speed than necessary.
Once the bike is leaned you roll on the throttle smoothly through the remainng more manageable curve, whose shortest distance is through the apex, or inside, and your acceleration carries you to the outside of the track/lane. And if you hang way off the bike you can lean it less, thus saving your excess available lean angle for contingencies, such as a surprise decreasing radius turn or too much speed.
I've only recently learned not to charge into the entry point at high speed. I used to do this in Porsche Club autocrosses and go-kart races. Finally, after digesting several books on high performance motorcycle riding, I've been convinced to enter turns more slowly, thus avoiding overbraking and it's related loss of stability and loss of more speed than necessary.
cdandtuzueta
Registered
Thanks rider coach!! I'm a relatively new rider and am was worried about all those wet curves here in Hawaii's mountains that I ride through everyday. Getting much better and have been using the press technique cause I read it in a manual somewhere...Thanks for the great tips though!!!
~Damian
Silver/Blue '04
~Damian
Silver/Blue '04
Smoke D
Registered
Hey RiderCoach, great job. I just wanted to add one thing that has helped me in my riding and kept me from wrecking on several occasions.
While the outside insides outside path of travel is the shortest, it does not mean a rider should not be comfortable with riding on the outside portion of the lane in turns. Some cagers actually take turns too fast or aren't paying attention and go over the double yellow line into your lane. While in the outside, I can see if a car is approaching and can make a judgement whether to go inside, or stay outside through the turn, adjusting my speed and lean angle accordingly. That gives me a few more seconds to react to the non-driving cagers and the "Rookie Drivers".
Just my $0.02.
While the outside insides outside path of travel is the shortest, it does not mean a rider should not be comfortable with riding on the outside portion of the lane in turns. Some cagers actually take turns too fast or aren't paying attention and go over the double yellow line into your lane. While in the outside, I can see if a car is approaching and can make a judgement whether to go inside, or stay outside through the turn, adjusting my speed and lean angle accordingly. That gives me a few more seconds to react to the non-driving cagers and the "Rookie Drivers".
Just my $0.02.
TruWrecks
Banned
Great tip!
I've been riding motorcycles for about 17 years, and as long as I'm still alive, I'm still learning new things to help me get better every time I ride.
The experience is different every time you hop on a bike and ride. Different conditions. Different mental state. Different physical preparedness. Different traffic patterns (Unless you live in LA .
).
If you don't learn something new every time, you may already be dead.
I've been riding motorcycles for about 17 years, and as long as I'm still alive, I'm still learning new things to help me get better every time I ride.
The experience is different every time you hop on a bike and ride. Different conditions. Different mental state. Different physical preparedness. Different traffic patterns (Unless you live in LA .
If you don't learn something new every time, you may already be dead.
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