No start.. I bet this one's a first, though

T

tnarmyng

Registered
Had trouble starting my Gen I after a TON of new-to-me maintenance (see my other posts for some crazy a** rigged parts of my bike I had to overcome).

Push button, click. poop. Charged NEW battery to 13.8v, tried again. Tried jumping it, too. Same. After finishing the new final drive I put it in gear and tried to turn the motor by rear wheel. Nope. Oooook. "Seized?", I thought. MMO mix into the spark plug holes for a few days. Same. Sh*t.

I had already checked starter relay, tip over sensor, clutch switch, and kickstand switch. Next I went to the forums and read up. I come up with starter clutch. Haha, yeah probably now after trying it a million times :banghead:

Pulled the right cover off and heard a DING fall down into the cover when it separated from the bike. FML. A bolt to the clutch basket had backed out and been clinking around against the basket and the cover along with the washers.

20201223_051142.jpg


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20201223_051156.jpg


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20201223_051310.jpg
 
Found a service bulletin for K8 and K9. Anyone else hear of this in a Gen 1? Mines a K7.

PO (prev. owner) has so much wrong on this bike it could have just been on him, but no sign prior side cover removal, ie permatex.
 
The top couple female threads have probably been worn from the loose bolt but most of them are probably like new. I imagine the clutch basket is fine. The pressure plate is really beat up but it I don't see why it wouldn't still work just fine. I would think a clutch spring bolt would have much longer threads. Is that loose one broke off? If so you will need to extract the rest of it. You might get away with replacing a few bolts and I would replace all of the springs. Actually, I would consider replacing the whole thing with a nice lockup clutch. It's not necessary for a stock engine but if you plan to boost, it's a good upgrade and since the old one is beat up, it might make more sense to upgrade now rather than replace OEM with OEM.

I would want to drop the oil pan and clean that out too. You must have chunks of spring and all kinds of debris in there. Clean the pan out and the pickup screen.
 
There was a recall many years ago in Germany even for the gen 2 to get those bolts glued in after this issue destroyed a couple of clutches.
I got mine glued in on my first gen 2 and did it myself on the second gen 2 I bought a few years ago.
Sorry to hear that this happened to you!
 
Sandow said:
There was a recall many years ago in Germany even for the gen 2 to get those bolts glued in after this issue destroyed a couple of clutches.
I got mine glued in on my first gen 2 and did it myself on the second gen 2 I bought a few years ago.
Sorry to hear that this happened to you!
Click to expand...
Ever heard of a gen 1 with this issue?
 
i would worry about getting the metal chips out
there thru the whole engine
1 chip in the wrong spot and that engine junk
 
tnarmyng said:
Ever heard of a gen 1 with this issue?
Click to expand...
Definitely not a first, I had an 05 i worked on that did the same thing last year. Guy actually took it to the dealer and they told him the engine was bad and needed replaced which obviously wasn't true. Whoever was riding that bike had to of heard that thing cause the guy told me after I had it tore down that the last time he rode it he remembered hearing some loud noises. After looking around i did come across quite a few people having this issue on first gens.
 
Mythos said:
The pressure plate is really beat up but it I don't see why it wouldn't still work just fine. I would think a clutch spring bolt would have much longer threads. Is that loose one broke off? If so you will need to extract the rest of it. You might get away with replacing a few bolts and I would replace all of the springs. Actually, I would consider replacing the whole thing with a nice lockup clutch. It's not necessary for a stock engine but if you plan to boost, it's a good upgrade and since the old one is beat up, it might make more sense to upgrade now rather than replace OEM with OEM.

I would want to drop the oil pan and clean that out too. You must have chunks of spring and all kinds of debris in there. Clean the pan out and the pickup screen.
Click to expand...
The basket is tore up here..

20201223_215302.jpg


The spring bolt was not broke off, just backed out and knocked around inside the cover.

One spring was chewed up into pieces, so new ones needed anyway. I'll check the forum for recommended sets of plates/springs. Hoping the plates are good.

I had a HELL of a time "fixing" the headers lately (really making them less f'd up). 2 were close to 40 & 70% pinched closed due to the ride height, flat tires, and load/unload from a truck bed. NOT wanting to pull again for the oil pan, but I know I need to. The dents changed the angle so the install was a PITA!

Luckily the bike was never ran as-is, so the metal is 99% looking to be JUUUUST inside the cover. I was thinking maybe a strong magnet to start, flush the oil, change the filter and check the drain plug to see what's left before starting it. Thoughts?
 
turtlezx said:
i would worry about getting the metal chips out
there thru the whole engine
1 chip in the wrong spot and that engine junk
Click to expand...
I think it would all go down to the oil pan like clutch fibers do. I'm not saying no worries but if there was going to be engine damage that would probably have happened already. The clutch is pretty self contained. The heavy stuff would be on the bottom of the oil pan and the lighter stuff would be trapped by the oil pickup. The real fine dust would be trapped by the oil filter. Nothing would go up in the engine from there. The pickup screen could be clogged though.
 
Dopey said:
Definitely not a first, I had an 05 i worked on that did the same thing last year. Guy actually took it to the dealer and they told him the engine was bad and needed replaced which obviously wasn't true. Whoever was riding that bike had to of heard that thing cause the guy told me after I had it tore down that the last time he rode it he remembered hearing some loud noises. After looking around i did come across quite a few people having this issue on first gens.
Click to expand...
And still no TSB for Gen 1.. I wonder why.
 
tnarmyng said:
The spring bolt was not broke off, just backed out and knocked around inside the cover.

One spring was chewed up into pieces, so new ones needed anyway. I'll check the forum for recommended sets of plates/springs. Hoping the plates are good.

I had a HELL of a time "fixing" the headers lately (really making them less f'd up). 2 were close to 40 & 70% pinched closed due to the ride height, flat tires, and load/unload from a truck bed. NOT wanting to pull again for the oil pan, but I know I need to. The dents changed the angle so the install was a PITA!

Luckily the bike was never ran as-is, so the metal is 99% looking to be JUUUUST inside the cover. I was thinking maybe a strong magnet to start, flush the oil, change the filter and check the drain plug to see what's left before starting it. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I see why the bolts come loose then. My ZX-14's clutch spring bolts have threads that are about 3.5" long.

I think OEM plates are going to be most highly recommended. The fiber plates in race clutch plates deteriorate very rapidly sitting in oil. Hopefully the plates are all ok.

Most of the stuff is probably aluminum if that's what the basket, drum and pressure plate are made of. I'm sure they are aluminum.

To me, it looks like the pressure plate was broken all the way through but there is no part of the hub near those wells the bolts go in except for the female threads in the hub. The female threads are drilled in posts that project out of the hub. The basket surrounds the hub and I don't think we see that all in your pic. The red arrows point to the posts with the female threads that rise out of the flat bottom of the hub.

I don't actually know for sure because I haven't taken my busa clutch apart. On my 14, the wells tighten against those posts and the pressure plate is held tight by the springs. You'll be taking that pressure plate off to inspect plates anyway so you'll see what i mean if I'm right...or wrong :D .

clch.dgrm1.jpg
clch.dgrm2.jpg
 
BTW, make sure you keep the exact order those plates were in when installed. There are about three different kinds and they must be put back in the correct order. I even used Sharpie to mark a finger to a slot with each fiber and a spline to a tooth on each steel before taking mine out my 14. I kept inside/outside orientation too. At least a tried my darndest. The main thing is you don't get the varieties of plates mixed up. There was a thread a while back where someone did that and the clutch pack slid out of place. He had to take it all apart again and position the plates properly in the stack.
 
tnarmyng said:
And still no TSB for Gen 1.. I wonder why.
Click to expand...
The tsb issued in 08 was because of all the previous failures it just takes a long time for most manufacturers to do anything about an issue they can blame on owner abuse. Your gonna need to flush everything real good and it's best to stop the oil pan to clean everything when u replace everything.
 
tnarmyng said:
The basket is tore up here..

View attachment 1630810

The spring bolt was not broke off, just backed out and knocked around inside the cover.

One spring was chewed up into pieces, so new ones needed anyway. I'll check the forum for recommended sets of plates/springs. Hoping the plates are good.

I had a HELL of a time "fixing" the headers lately (really making them less f'd up). 2 were close to 40 & 70% pinched closed due to the ride height, flat tires, and load/unload from a truck bed. NOT wanting to pull again for the oil pan, but I know I need to. The dents changed the angle so the install was a PITA!

Luckily the bike was never ran as-is, so the metal is 99% looking to be JUUUUST inside the cover. I was thinking maybe a strong magnet to start, flush the oil, change the filter and check the drain plug to see what's left before starting it. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what u mean by never ran as is but I assure you there is debris in the bottom end from it being ran for awhile when that bolt came loose. I actually found some pieces of clutch springs that I didn't even realize were broken at first in the sump wedged in a tight spot but in a way that i know it would have came loose and caused more damage if i hadn't got it out. Also check at the slave cylinder real good, from pulling the clutch trying to start the one I fixed the bolt that was trapped against the cover caused the slave to crack the cover as well.
 
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